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Thread: Mass Decon

  1. #21
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    Oringally posted by cfire.
    I have been working with the Naval Surface Warfare Center to complete a CRADA agreement to develop a warfare agent and pesticide decontamination application system. All the test are finished and the patens are issued to the Navy. Hopfully the QAC will be available in the near future.
    For your business no doubt. Or out of the goodness of your heart?

    All is not well. But one reason all is not well is fear mongering and profiteering. Brings to mind the hysteria that surrounded Y2K.

    You have adequately proven your limited knowledge and hidden agenda. Game, set, match. I'm done.
    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.


  2. #22
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    Originally posted by George Wendt, CFI:
    Oringally posted by cfire.


    For your business no doubt. Or out of the goodness of your heart?

    All is not well. But one reason all is not well is fear mongering and profiteering. Brings to mind the hysteria that surrounded Y2K.

    You have adequately proven your limited knowledge and hidden agenda. Game, set, match. I'm done.
    George, I don't think it is fear mongering to share knowledge about a clear and present danger. Another example: Does your department have a plan for controling the flies that may be attracted to any dead herbivor animals? The spores can be transfered this way. Should we just ignore it because it's scarey to think about? Who will manage this and how do we respond. I sure won't be sticking MY head in the sand either, the spores can exist there for more than 43 years, the spores are not easily killed with current disinfectants or decontamination agents. I received the Navy CRADA 3 years ago I've worked hard and spent a great deal of time and money to develope the project but responding to this messageboard is not a sales pitch.

    Be safe, save a life.
    Mark Cummins
    Mark Cummins

  3. #23
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    We basically have the same type of operation being that we use the deckguns with fog nozzles and then a nozzle on each panel also. After coming through that, they then get a more detailed decon. Cfire you do have a valid point, however, there are hardly any of us running around with any solutions that you mentioned. The first and formost goal is to decon contaiminated victims first, and the other stuff comes later. If you have a train load of people who were contaminated, that is gonna be a lot of water to try to contain.
    As far as your question on how long would one Spore of Anthrax became 2. That is irrelevant. How long would it take after the 48 hours it takes for the lab to confirm the field test, for the antibiotics your already taking to work on those spores? Even more, Smallpox is an even farther of reach in my opinion. While there is no doubt in my mind some of us are going to have to deal with that threat in the future, (better to think so, then shrug it off), following mass decon those victims are going to be quarintined due to the explosive contagiousness off the virus. Whearas Anthrax is not contagious person to person, and also is eliminated with a simple bleach solution. Life Safety first. Plus lets face it the stuff that can kill you with one molecule (nerve agents) is going to kill a lot of us first due responders also by the time someone figures out what is going on. Anyone who has seen or read about the mass decon trailers that the large cities has knows that this is an effective means instead of waiting around for chemicals that still have to be cleaned up anyway.
    --------------------------------------------
    The above is my opinion only and doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.

  4. #24
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    Originally posted by ALSfirefighter:
    We basically have the same type of operation being that we use the deckguns with fog nozzles and then a nozzle on each panel also. After coming through that, they then get a more detailed decon. Cfire you do have a valid point, however, there are hardly any of us running around with any solutions that you mentioned.
    Very well put. Thanks for the comments.

    One more quick comment, from me, about a disturbing bit of information from the Military testing labs, The anthrax spores are very hard to kill, if you use a strong bleach solutions it could take more than 30 minutes of contact to kill them.
    Mark Cummins

  5. #25
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    I am sorry to see the kind of comments that are appearing in this section. If someone places some inaccurate information here, it should be rebutted with the appropriate information. Resorting to name calling serves no useful purpose. In light of the happenings of September 11 and since, we should all be working together to deal with the problem. Lets act like the professionals we are.

    EPA recently issued guidance for runoff of materials from a chemical or biological decontamination. It basically says, life safety is more important than environmental contamination. If it is possible to contain runoff, then it should be done, but not at the expense of those contaminated. Getting chemical agents in particular, off of a person is a high priority. It is unlikely an emergency decontamination will occur as the result of a biological incident. As we have seen already, the discovery of a biological scene usually occurs after the fact. Those doing clean-up and testing have the time to establish technical decon and contain runoff.

    The amount of a biological material present as a contaminant on a person is likely to be small. Other than anthrax, most biological materials would not survive long in the environment, and dilution by the large amount of decontamination water would likely take care of any biohazard.

    If it is anthrax spores, wetting them down is the best thing that could happen, they cannot be airborne and inhaled if wet. They exist naturally in the soil, and given the small amounts likely to be present, they do not present a significant runoff hazard.

    The decon foam developed by Sandia Labs sounds like an answer to the decontamination problem. It does not harm people or the environment. The same cannot be said for chlorine or other chemicals use for decon.

  6. #26
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    Just a quick bit of input on this topic:

    A number of agencies have addressed this problem, and we have seen a few isolated reports on contamination in the runoff from mass decon. As stated previously, the EPA has provided a letter to the Soldier Biological and Chemical Command (US Army) regarding this issue (go to the SBCCOM website and check it out). As for individual molecules multiplying, etc., it is possible, but extremely unlikely. In an urban setting, the runoff can be channeled to the sanitary sewer system, where it will eventually be treated with chlorine (which will kill almost everything except a nuclear material given the time of exposure). I have seen plans for cities on the east coast to chase their runoff with a bleach solution to the order of 1000 gallons. I would have to say that the issue has been addressed there, and it is spreading through the country. Is it the ultimate answer? Guess we will start finding out, unfortunately.
    Just some general thoughts.

    Stay safe out there!!
    Todd Dousa
    NREMT-P, COHC
    EMS Chief

  7. #27
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    Rburke, you are absolutely correct with your statement that "usually" bioterrorism attacks will be known after the fact. However, the terms "usually" and "most" are used very regulary and can be disasterous. Also the biggest threat we have is the fact that those of us depts. that are in the close suburbs to NYC, sit on the the 3 major commuter railroad systems. In the event of an attack many people may flood trains and head home whether they know if something happened or not, and if they begin to show symptoms on the train, low and behold we have mass decon needs. Lets not forget also, that FEMA has estimated for quite some time that in the event of certain biological/chemical attacks, that they predict 50% of first responders will become victims themselves.

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