1. #1
    nj_lawyer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question Hey mfr reps.... please explain this stuff....

    This one is probably best for the manufacturer reps, but I have a few questions .....

    First, what is telemetry (is that spelled right). Is it the same as the transmitter and receiver? I've heard FF refer to both as the same.....

    Second, why don't you have a receiver that can have a chip added or be programmed to receive other manufacturers transmitters. It makes no sense that you can't.


    My understanding is that the transmitter works upon basically the same principal as our handheld radios, just on a higher frequency.


    The reason that I would want to receive other units is two-fold. First, my company can get a Bullard for free (we are in NJ) plus the cost of the transmitter and receiver. If we opt to get the free cam, why would we get anything but a Bullard if we will need a different receiver for each one. Second, one of our sister companies already has the MSA Argus. If they have a transmitter and we have one of a different brand and another company has a third, you would need 3 receivers in the CP to view the different cams since you don't know which one will be in service first.

    If I were looking at two different cameras that were substantially equal in my mind, the one with a programable receiver (or could have additional frequencies added for a fee) would sway me.

    Personally, I would like to see each of our engines outfitted with a TIC. Maybe I'm dreaming, but this to me is ideal. If one manufacturer could pull in the free Bullard and thier cam and whatever else we get on one receiver, I might buy just for that.

    Certainly that manufacturer could sell a ton of receivers....


    Done with my soapbox for now, any answers?


    ------------------
    Nothing stated in this post has been approved by or is the position of my employer or VFD. It is only my opinion.

  2. #2
    FireOptic
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    In response to your first question; Yes, telemetry and transmitter/receiver are one in the same. They are both terms to describe the ability of the TIC to transmit the video the operator is seeing to a monitor on the outside.

    As for the ability to reprogram the transmitter, I think that is a great idea, unfortunately, the guys who build TICs these days purchase their transmitter/receiver units from a small handful of sources. The theoretical possibility exists for a manufacturer to do this reprogramming, except that there are only a few frequencies that individual vendors are allowed to operate in, particularly in the transmit power ranges required for the video signal to be effective. Someday, this might be a reality, but right now, well, sorry.

    FYI-the transmitter that Bullard uses is the same one used by ICC in the FireOptic, and I believe that Scott uses the same one as well. Other manufacturers, including Bullard, routinely receive our video signals at trade shows and demos!!

    Bottom line: There are other TICs on the market that can utilize the receiver used on the Bullard unit. All transmitters are not implemented the same, so one may give a better picture than another in an identical set of circumstances.

    ------------------
    Tom Clynne
    President - ICC

    [This message has been edited by FireOptic (edited February 14, 2000).]

  3. #3
    nj_lawyer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    Thanks for the reply.....

    You created some more work for me though, now I have to compile a list of frequencies used by the various vendors and see which are compatible with each other.

    ------------------
    Nothing stated in this post has been approved by or is the position of my employer or VFD. It is only my opinion.

  4. #4
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hold on there nj_lawyer - I may have that info already. It would be at my real job though so give me until Friday to find it, I don't go back until Thursady.

    If I have it I'll email you for a fax number and send it your way.

  5. #5
    TIMan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Sorry for the delay in getting back, and thanks to Mr. Clynne for his response.

    About the only thing I would add is to bear in mind that some systems are digital and others are analog. A receiver that works off of an analog signal would not work of off a digital signal. There are 3 primary types of systems currently in use. They include : licensed analog (Bullard), unlicensed analog, and digital spread spectrum. Trying to intermix the signals of these different systems would not work.

    Also a word of caution, if the video signal from a particular unit is critical you should make sure that no other units are transmitting. It is very common for a number of these units to pick up and receive each other’s signal. This could provide the person watching the transmitted image bad or confusing information.

    If you do not get the data from Scott Cook or have further questions please let me know.

    Good Luck, Be Safe,
    TIman

  6. #6
    McNiecefafe
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I was invited to an evaluation where there was an imager there that had the capabilities to transmit and had a pyrometer. They were looking at a cup of ice water while transmitting it to a monitor. The temperature of the cup was 157 degrees on the monitor. What's with this? dDoes the transmitter skew the pyrometer that much? If the cup of ice water was 157 degrees, I shudder to think what fire would be or even worse, a hazmat incident and the IC would base a decision upon this and wipe out his entire crew! Please explain. Thanks

  7. #7
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Sorry, nj_lawyer, I can't find my list of this stuff, I had thae info you wanted as well as a spreadsheet of all imager specs side by side.

    If anyone has this info, could you send it my way?

  8. #8
    IRalltheway
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I have a little experience with Pyrometers and remember that they shoot out a beam and takes the average temperature within the beam. So, for example if you are looking at a target that 10 feet away(which I beleive most Pyrometers are calibrated to) than you will receive a somewhat accurate reading. If you backup to about 25 feet then the temp reading will be all over the place. The same goes if you were to be within inches of the target. The only way to get an accurate temperature reading on a thermal imaging camera is to get the measurement off the detector which must be a microbolometer. I don't have a lot of experience with these cameras, but I'm sure FireOptic(Tom Clynne) can definatly sheed some light.

  9. #9
    TIMan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hello All,

    As far as the on screen temperature display issues goes there is an explanation of this under an earlier post entitled “A word of caution”. It is important to know that it makes no difference if the measurement is coming of a unit with a point radiometer or it is coming off of a microbolometer. The accuracy of both can be effected by a number of factors the biggest of which is emissivity.

    As far as the issue of a transmitter having anything to do with the temperature read out, the transmitter will deliver the same information displayed on the screen, so the transmitted information is no different.

    I think the Fire service has been done a great disservice by many of the individuals and manufacturers selling units with on screen temperature read out. I say that because I have heard and seen in writing claims that these units are accurate to +/- 1 degree Fahrenheit. In some cases this may be so, but in many other cases these readings can be off by hundreds of degrees. We all know every manufacturer or distributor has lied or stretched the truth a little to sell a thermal imager, but the line needs to be drawn when that misinformation may place someone’s life at risk. I would bet if you asked half of the firefighters using units with on screen temperature display they would tell you “it is very accurate and is great for making decisions on how to handle a situation”. I have heard it way to many times. I am in this line of work to make sure that the brothers and sisters out there are getting the right information on thermal imaging so they will realize its incredible benefits and not get feed a bunch of crap by anyone that might put their life in danger. A good thermal imager and the understanding of its capabilities is priceless, a bad thermal imager or bad information on thermal imaging is much more dangerous than not having one at all. To many things in this line of work will kill you, the last thing you need is bad information or bad equipment.

    If you agree make sure the manufacturers and reps know you will not stand for this crap. If you catch them lying to you, tell them to take their product and get the *@!! out ! If they are from Bullard, let me know, so I can personally see that something is done about it.

    Good Luck, Be Safe,
    TIman

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