Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1
    FIREXFIRE
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post ISG Cameras (Delivery Delays)

    Has anyone know of a delivery delay from ISG. Its been 6-8 months since ordered, nothing yet.


  2. #2
    FF.FOREVER
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    We also had a delay in the ISG we ordered. We ordered ours in December. They told us it would be here in the middle of Janurary. WE just got it on April 28th. The only good thing is that we got the NEW ISG with the Digitek system. So call you rep and find out what the wait is for. I don't care what anyone say. The reason for the delay if the Navy. I was told by my rep that the Navy was looking at 800 pieces. On antoher site I saw where someone said the U.S. NAVY wasn't ordering, but the austrialian Navy ordered 200 pieces. I don't know what going on but you can bet someones Navy has their hand in something.

  3. #3
    TIMan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hello all,

    Just wondering why you guys did not tell the rep you want your TI within 30 days, or cancel the order. I know of a number of departments that have had saves within the first 60-90 days of receiving their TIs. Granbury spotted an impending collapse and got 4 guys out minutes before the interior came in. They had just gotten their unit 35 days before that happened.

    I think it is crazy you do all of the hard work to get a TI, so you can save lives, and a manufacturer expects you to sit by for months hoping and praying nothing goes wrong. If Granbury had waited 3-6 months they would have most likely lost 4 firefighters that night. Are the lives of your firefighters and citizens any less important than that of someone's in the Navy ?

    Also, if it takes this long on delivery, what about service ? It is obviously not going to be any better if you get it, but have to go without it for another 30-90 days if you have to send it out for service.

    I am not suggesting you buy a TI just based on the ability to deliver, but I think you have to consider delivery and service times.

    More importantly I think a message needs to be sent that long delays are not acceptable. No better way to do that than cancel an order or let the rest of the brothers and sisters know what is going on. Bravo to you guys for giving everyone else a heads-up.

    If a department has done all of the hard work to get a unit, they should have it, fires and death wait on no one !

    Good Luck, Be Safe,
    "TIman"

  4. #4
    FireTIC
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    TIMan,
    BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!
    I think it's about time you disassembled your soapbox. You speak as though you are the only manufacturer with delivery delays. What about your 13 month delivery to the State of New Jersey? By the way, you stated you were ONLY a "grunt" and not a salesman. NICE SPEACH.

    FIREXFIRE,
    I suggest you contact your local dealer and let them know the delivery of your camera is imperative. If the 6-8 month delay is true, It is not acceptable, and let your dealer know. I have delivered cameras in as little as 21 days, but some have been longer. Good luck.

    FRD

  5. #5
    jerseyfire
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    TIMAN – You have made many questionable statements on this forum before, but this time you have crossed the line. You preach about being a grunt and a trainer, but demonstrate all the worst traits and characteristics of a used car salesman and a snake oil peddler all rolled up in one. If this isn’t a sales pitch, I don’t know what is.

    FIREXFIRE – You should contact your rep and find out what is going on. Delays happen, but they at least owe you an honest answer. If your rep isn’t any help, contact the company direct. I’m sure they’d be more than happy to help you if they can. I’m the dealer in NJ for another brand of camera, but would never go as far as TIMAN in making such statements about a competitor. Bottom line, you made your choice on the ISG, now work out the details.

    FireTIC – Maybe it’s time someone contacts Bullard and finds out what their policy is on corporate employees making such statements. I didn’t know “trainers” were also corporate spokes people. I’d also copy the above post and forward it to your manufacturer. I think it was Bullard that took legal action against another company for showing an advertisement with a red handled TIC sticking out of a bucket of ice.

    EVERYONE ELSE – I have no affiliation with any of the above mentioned TIC manufacturers. I do rep a camera and I do make a living selling fire equipment(at least I try). But I am a firefighter first and foremost. I believe the above post by TIMAN is inflammatory and an intentional attack. These forums are a great source of information and I enjoy participating in them, but I can not stand hypocrisy and the constant flow of crap.

    I apologize for my tirade but I was really offended by this whole thing.


    ------------------
    Rob Donnan
    Captain, Metuchen FD
    President, Jersey Fire & Rescue

  6. #6
    Jeff801
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    (After wading through the BS)...I have found this forum to be a life saver, no pun intended. I appreciate the technical info that has been posted and the interaction with other readers, like myself, who find themselves under a deadline and are trying to become informed before the next generation camera arrives to market. The posters of this forum have provided me with factual spec.'s. The readers of this forum have offered their evaluation guidelines without opinion.

    I have been to enough trade shows and can wade through the deepest rambling, but overall I think this is the only forum around where quality information is available. Thanks to the posters...yes,even TIMan. By the way I just received my first grant for TIC's, let the games begin!

    Jeff

  7. #7
    TIMan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hello All,

    Funny how the 2 people who fire back are both strongly associated with a TI manufacturer, one actually sales TIs in NJ.

    If someone would like to give any type of a logical explanation why anyone should wait 6-8 months for a life saving piece of equipment, we are listening. Calling me names and making accusations does not accomplish anything !

    As far as NJ goes, I am not real big on the delivery timeline, but that is what the State and Bullard worked out. Also Bullard has not blown off it's other customers who are ordering TIs and has not started to deliver TIs 3-6 months late.

    Bottom line.
    Departments are buying TIs to save lives and property. If they are that important, and they are, why should anyone have to wait 6 months to get that piece of equipment in service. In a perfect world you would get the TI the day after you order it, in the real world 30 days is a realistic delivery period.

    Logic says you put any type of life saving equipment in service as soon as possible, period !

    As far as the other comments go, I well let my record stand for itself. I have been the center of controversy in many a topic, but as I have said, it is because I want people to have the knowledge to question the crap that is being spread in the world of thermal imaging. Case in point, anyone should have to wait 8 months for a TI.

    Also, no one ever said everyone should always agree, here or anywhere else. If one guy jumps off a bridge should everyone else ?

    I wish some more new people like Jeff801 would get involved and let everyone know what they think. Basically it is the same 10 people going back and forth. Don't get me wrong, progress is being made, but this arguing over TIs should be at the bottom of the list. The post I started on training once again is going no where, so until there is some activity on another topic I guess we will have to keep beating this one up.

    PLEASE, if you are using TIs or are looking at getting into thermal imaging let us know what you think !

    Good Luck, Be Safe,
    “TIman”

    PS : the fact I responded to this topic the way I did should show where my loyalties are. Responding as such, meant as a Bullard rep, I would have to defend everything Bullard has done or is doing. Not necessarily a good thing, but I would rather see depts. getting TIs when they should, than not comment or give a weak response just to avoid starting any controversy for TI manufacturers.


    [This message has been edited by TIMan (edited May 08, 2000).]

  8. #8
    no_name_FF
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Maybe I'm missing something, but what did TIMan say that was wrong and deserved the criticism of others (albeit TIC salesmen).

    I feel that I need to respond to at least one comment as the quote is attributable to me:

    "TIMan,
    BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!
    I think it's about time you disassembled your soapbox. You speak as though you are the only manufacturer with delivery delays. What about your 13 month delivery to the State of New Jersey? By the way, you stated you were ONLY a "grunt" and not a salesman. NICE SPEACH."

    Frank, why don't you insert into every post that you are a salesman for a particular camera. I have exchanged e-mail with you and think you have a good unit, but what is this about?

    The 13 month delay I spoke of was hearsay from a member of "x" department who heard it from the deputy chief who spoke with the chief who heard it from the State .....

    My understanding is that NJ only demands delivery of 100 TIC's per month, not Bullard's fault.

    Personally, I think a 6 month delay is unacceptable unless fully disclosed at time of order...

    I hope the manufacturer is compensating for the delay (free options or discount)


    ------------------
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

  9. #9
    FireTIC
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    no_name_FF,
    I did not intend to draw anyone else into this string of discussion. My apologies. But look into the Bullard website and see the delivery schedule for TIC's to New Jersey (unless they already have changed it).
    The reason i challenged the NJ TIC contract, is because i know the specs. FIRSTHAND. Some may think this is just sour grapes, but I had NOTHING to gain by challenging the contract award.(I believe FF's in NJ deserved more than a low price).
    To answer your question on posting as a sales rep: I do not believe that information is as important as the topic, but if anyone wants to investigate my loyalties, see my website.

    I just wish one day all the B.S., halftruths and misinformation from manufacturers/dealers
    would stop, so we all can benefit from this forum.

    TiMAN,
    I would guess more people read this forum, than participate.

    To All,
    This forum only benefits if you participate.

    Time for a NEW topic?

    FRD



  10. #10
    dalittle
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well, I guess it’s my turn to post…

    I feel I owe the community an explanation on what is really happening. I’ve seen, of ate, speculative posts on this board in an attempt to find reasons for delays with orders for the ISG K90 thermal imager product line. Let’s take a minute to set the record straight.

    First, I’d like to find out why there has been an 8-month delay on Firexfire’s camera. That is obviously not the correct lead-time for a K90 Talisman Thermal Imager. Please send me an e-mail so I may check into it. (I will be the first to admit that there have been delivery delays in general; not 8 months though.)

    I’d like to take a minute (or two) to explain why there have been delays, and to offer you guys a look inside our company so that you are aware of the real reasons behind the delivery delays many of you faced. I will try to compromise by giving you as much information as possible, yet being aware of the fact that virtually all my competitors will be reading this post and circulating it both internally and externally.

    Here’s a summary of the chain of events:

    1.First, remember that at ISG, we manufacture pretty much all the parts inside the K90 Talisman camera. Therefore, to manufacture an ISG K90 thermal imager, we must deal with more sub-assembly levels than pretty much any other fire camera. Also, let’s recall that there are many more controls and safety related systems in an ISG camera – therefore, there are more part numbers. For instance, ISG manufactures their own “head” board assembly (the board the sensor sits in), we make our own DSP circuits, cooling circuits with thermocouples that monitor heat build-up, we control gain and offset, and auto-iris controls, and drive our own monitors, etc…

    Just as an example, the monitor assembly in the K90 Talisman is built-up from raw parts. We have four levels in that part ALONE! In contrast, many of our competitors use LCD’s that they buy “plug and play.” Much easier to do, but, you don’t get the same performance.

    Our goal is to manufacture a high-performance product that is specific to the application (in this case – firefighting.)

    NOW, with that all said, and because there are so many custom built parts, when there is a supply hiccup with even ONE critical component, the assembly line really slows down! AND, when you have multiple supplier issues concurrently, you’re faced with a very significant cascading cumulative effect that affects delivery times.

    Here’s what happened – all in about a six-month period:

    A.Earlier this year, we had delivery delays with DSS transmitter parts which caused delays in some configurations of K90 Talisman cameras. The delays were a function of slower than expected FCC licensing, as well as some compatibility issues.

    B.We had delays in deliveries of populated EMC board assemblies (used in each and every camera.)

    C.The first two batches of new DIGITEK DSP boards weren’t right – had to re-do them.

    D.Raytheon changed some things with the BST sensor assembly (things that would be transparent to every other camera manufacturer using BST since they don’t do processing the same way we do.) We had to engineer changes to our system to be compatible with the new Raytheon parts.

    E.We had delays getting pyrometers from our suppliers.

    F.We had delays getting cases from our case guy.

    NOW, in addition to all these issues, our core monthly volume (non-impact volume) increased materially over the past six months. Additionally, we closed multiple large impact orders that were negotiated before all these supplier issues happened. (As a side note, since the word is already out on this board, I’ll confirm that the Australian Navy did buy ISG and that was one of the impact orders contributing to this situation.)

    From our perspective, the good news is that very many fire departments realize the advantage of choosing ISG. We’re pretty sure that we have become the world’s largest producer of firefighting thermal imagers! We sell more firefighting thermal imagers worldwide than anyone else. And, even if Bullard sells and delivers 900 cameras to New Jersey, in addition to their current non-NJ volume, we will still be the world leader. That’s pretty darn good and we are mighty proud of that!

    The bad new is that unless we shorten the delivery lead times, customers WILL be going elsewhere. We realize that.

    Here’s what we are doing to fix the problem:

    1.First and foremost, in November last year, we initiated a project to expedite opening an assembly operation in our Atlanta facility. We’ve had this up and running since around January but didn’t ship any product out of this facility until around the end of March. The new manufacturing facility will eventually double our production output. However, right now, it accounts for around 35 percent of total output. As many of you in manufacturing can imagine, this has been a major project and we are still making significant tweaks to the system.

    2. ISG’s UK operations has automated many of the in-house assembly processes that, until recently were restricted to Engineers. This will allow us to significantly speed up the assembly time. Without getting too in-depth, basically, the speed is increased at the expense of lower yield on certain sub-assemblies. Our simulations suggest that overall net effect is higher output - significantly. Most importantly, this will allow us to seamlessly turn up the volume when necessary by re-directing internal resources. And, as an additional benefit, more engineering resources are now available for R&D, which means faster new technical stuff!

    3. Most important, and significant, we are multiple sourcing certain critical components and sub-assemblies. That will ensure that supplier delays will never be as severe as it once was and we will not ever be placed in to this situation again. (knock on wood!!)


    The final word is that today, we are still backlogged. I’m sure “you-all” can understand that there is not any single overnight fix for these issues. Rest assured, we are working on it. For cameras are ordered today, expect 60 to 90 days. We expect to get it down to less than 30 days in about 90-120 days.

    Personally, as the “stopper of the buck” at ISG, I have much more gray hair than I once did. I’ve had many more sleepless nights, I’ve probably smoked more cigars than I should have…. You guys who are in manufacturing - you know how it is. Basically, when it rains, it pours…

    I sincerely thank the many customers that have stood by us and continue to stand by us as we work through these issues. Be assured you are getting the very best we are capable of – that’s why you’ve waited in the first place. That’s why you chose us to be your supplier, certainly not because we were low bid… because we weren’t.

    And, I thank the many distributors who have patiently been waiting and acting as customer liaison. I can’t tell you how much I really appreciate all your support.


    Sincerely,

    David A. Little
    Director, North American Operations
    ISG Thermal Systems, USA, Inc.


  11. #11
    no_name_FF
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FireTIC - I wasn't sure if you were referring to my quote from the NJ thread or some other source.


    I ask about posting your affilliation because I think it is only fair to the "casual" readers to learn of your affilliation up front. In my estimation, there are about 10 manufacturers reps or local salespersons that contribute to this forum. I value the input from each, but I think its important to remember who butters the bread for each poster.

    Most people on this forum realize that I have been posting here for the last six months under another name but ran into some problems with a local salesperson so changed names for that reason.

    I should note that dalittle and TIMan did inquire about who was giving me the problems (or more specifically, was it thier local guy). I think this is a very responsible thing to do.

    It took me a while to figure out who was who with the reps, I just think it would be easier if you all said "I work for xxx" or "I sell xxx" at the beginning or end.


    RULES TO LIVE BY ON THIS FORUM:

    1) Realize that the reps are gonna like thier product best (who would have a job if you always/publically said "my competitor is better")

    2) Don't buy without seeing the camera for yourself in some sort of live fire test.

    3) MOST IMPORTANT -- GET A THERMAL IMAGING CAMERA, ITS YOUR LIFE YOU ARE PROTECTING.

    ------------------
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

  12. #12
    FireFLIRMgr
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    How interesting this thread was. I found myself ducking from the pot shots, first at ISG, then TIMAN, and so on. Sooner or later, I knew that David would have to clear things up. If you, the fire fighters keep up the pressure, you will get an answer.

    Just for the record, sooner or later, we all (manufacturers) have delays. I have been involved with PASS devices, Redundant Alarms, Communications Devices, Airline Equipment, and TIC's. Delays are inevitable. Sometimes it is the very success of the product which leads to eventual delays.

    ADVICE TO FIRE SERVICE CUSTOMERS:
    When you experience SIGNIFICANT DELAYS, seek out the people who really know the answers. No offense to distributors, but they only have the information that sales reps give them, and many times sales reps don't have the full story. Of course you should start with the dealer, then the sales rep, but when you are talking about delays in terms of months, get to that guy with the "Sales Manager" or "Product Manager" title. Many of us participate on this forum. Demand accountability, and give us a reasonable time to respond. It is sometimes days before we have a chance to check the forum. Whatever you find out, report it here, so that others will benefit. How long you are willing to wait will differ from department to department. It may depend on how much you liked the camera, and how much you like your number 2 choice. I don't think you want me, or representatives from other manufacturers or dealers to tell you that you are waiting too long.

    Greg Hall
    FireFLIR


  13. #13
    IRalltheway
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    WOW!!! I take some time off and this place goes crazy. First of all I see that their are some new posters and I would like to say welcome aboard and please speak your mind. I would love to rock the boat, but I'll just say one thing. If the delivery is past due from the date you are promised by the manuf or dist then I feel that we have the right to demand some form of compensation. For example, an accessory at no charge. If it past due by 6 months then if we want a transmitter we get one for free. The manuf/dist wouldn't like it if we paid them 6 months late. Remember, just because we give them an order or they have our money doesn't mean we loose our power.

    One more thing! Hats off to David for going into detail on ISG deliveries. Not to many manuf. that I have talked to would post the delays. I could point out the cameras, but that would start a battle.

  14. #14
    jerseyfire
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    I wanted to apologize to TIMAN and all the other readers of this forum for the harshness of my words in my earlier post on this subject. Although I do not agree with what he said, or how he said it, I was wrong for so strongly attacking him.

    I want this forum to continue to provide positive information for the members and hopefully lead to better training, procedures and policies within the fire service. I also encourage the members to read other forums on other subjects to see what else is being talked about. Although I’ve seen several of you posted under these subjects, I believe many people only stay up on the thermal imaging forum and gain tunnel vision.

    Partially in line with what no_name said earlier, I believe all members posting on this forum should have some type of profile. I don’t feel obligated to give my full resume everytime I make a comment, but my profile and my web site tell you who I am, what I do and gives you my email. I’d be more than happy to discuss any subject on the side, just drop me a line. But people posting comments with none of this information available…what are they trying to hide?

    I recently attended a 2 day training seminar in New York City, put on by the F.D.N.Y. and was overwhelmed by the wealth of knowledge and good information they put out. I’ll be posting some new subjects soon so we can bat them around and see how these things apply to the thermal side.

    Once again, Sorry for the harshness of my words!

    Train often, train hard!

    Rob


    ------------------
    Rob Donnan
    Captain, Metuchen FD
    President, Jersey Fire & Rescue

  15. #15
    FireTIC
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    David,
    Thanks for taking me off the hook with regard to delivery. I felt you would be better equiped to respond. I may have said something out of bounds, or gave too much information to the hounds.

    no_name_FF,
    I do applaud david for keeping his dealers in check (even if it was me). I expect the same from my guys in the field.

    FRD
    NJ - ISG Dealer

  16. #16
    TIMan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hello All,

    Rob, apology accepted.

    I will be the first to admit my words were also very hard, however sometimes it takes some hard words to get something done. Whether it is thermal imagers, turnout gear, or SCBA the days of ridiculous delivery and service delays needs to end. We do not live in a perfect world so delays are inevitable, but they are quickly becoming the norm not the exception. I recently tried to order a new set of turnout gear and was told to expect it in 90 days. After 90 days I was told another 30 days, bottom line I canceled the order after waiting 120 days. Granted getting a new set of turnout gear is not as critical as getting a thermal imager in service but it is still ridiculous to be lied to and put off for months. I have been privy to a lot of information on thermal imagers, and by my best estimates, a large percentage are going over the promised delivery and service times. One person canceling an order is not going to get a lot of attention. However, if large numbers of people start putting the word out on poor performance, or in the worst case scenarios canceling orders, things may start to change. Brothers and sisters are putting it on the line everyday, and there is no excuse for an injury or fatality to occur because someone did not have equipment in service because of a delay in delivery or service.

    Whether we debate or agree, as long as the majority feels we are making progress that is what matters.

    Good Luck, Be Safe,
    “TIman”

    Almost forgot,
    Bullard TI Training Specialist

    [This message has been edited by TIMan (edited May 09, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by TIMan (edited May 10, 2000).]

  17. #17
    no_name_FF
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I like this new trend of the reps putting "NJ xyz dealer" or "abc training specialist" by name.

    "joe newbie" will find this helpful when he wants to contact someone for more info, etc.

    Also, FireTIC what makes you think dalittle was asking about you? LOL

    ------------------
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts