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  1. #1
    no_name_FF
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post Competition for Bullard in NJ?

    Just checked out the Argus2 web site and see that they are selling for $9,995!

    Is this the same as what MSA was marketing under the Argus name? If it is, my company probably would have bought this and got NJ State reimbursment instead of the free Bullard....

    Check it out www.argusdirect.com

    ------------------
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!


  2. #2
    FireFLIRMgr
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    The (black) Argus 2 is vastly different from the original (yellow) Argus & Argus Plus Cameras. The Argus 2 is BST. I was still Product Line Manager for MSA when they introduced the black Argus 2. I can tell you that it is leaps and bounds above the yellow ones. It is also my opinion that it would give the BST cameras a run for their money. As far as I know, MSA is still carrying the Argus 2. I expected them to carry it at least till their new cameras become available. But I could be wrong.

    If I represented a NJ Fire Department, I would first seek a hands-free solution (sorry I couldn't resist). But given a choice between a Bullard and an Argus 2, I would take the Bullard and run.

    Greg Hall
    FireFLIR Product Manager

  3. #3
    TIMan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hello All,

    Greg, if you ever leave FLIR give our sales people a call.

    Just a word of caution,
    If you consider any unit, remember the unit itself is only part of the big picture. You also have to consider the service and support that will come with the unit. Who is going to do the training and what is it going to cover ? What kind of service turnarounds are you going to get ?

    If you check some of the other posts here you will find very quickly you do not always get what you are promised.

    Check with current users and see what their experinaces have been. Listen to a couple of other depts, not the sales pitch or price tag.

    Good Luck, Be Safe,
    “TIman”

    Bullard
    TI Training Specialist


    [This message has been edited by TIMan (edited May 22, 2000).]

  4. #4
    FireTIC
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FireFLIRmgr,
    I completly disagree with your choice of a hand-held TIC, given a choice. I believe a camera with a manual aperture is just wrong. If you had to constantly manipulte a knob while trying to crawl through a structure, you would need a third hand.
    Is it possible MSA has made the move away from EEV? With the purchase of ISIG in New Mexico it is/was only a matter of time.

    FRD

  5. #5
    TIMan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hello,

    I am a medical Doctor and I am interested in doing a study of a special condition that I have heard exists in certain firefighters. I know that there are thousands of firefighters using thermal imagers with manual iris adjustment, as such I would like to study the presence of a third hand that must exist with these individuals. If you are one of these individuals please contact me ASAP.

    Thank You,

    Doctor Quacks A Lot

    AKA : “TIman”

    Bullard
    TI Training Specialist

  6. #6
    jerseyfire
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    I gotta give credit where credit is due.

    That is funny!

    Rob

  7. #7
    jerseyfire
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I was at the Harrisburg Fire Expo. on Friday and MSA was there and it looked like the only thing they were showing was an Evolution 4000 prototype. I didn’t notice any Argus units in the booth. Doesn’t mean they weren’t there, I just didn’t see any.

    I’ve got a feeling they’ve already dropped the line. Just my opinion.

    Rob


    ------------------
    Rob Donnan
    Captain, Metuchen FD
    President, Jersey Fire & Rescue

  8. #8
    old Bob
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    Just to clarify to no_name_FF , yes , the Argus2 is the same as the one that MSA have been offering but is now available direct from Marconi (formerly EEV),the manufacturers.
    And to answer Greg Hall , yes , Argus2 is the black one you know.


    ------------------
    old Bob M.

  9. #9
    no_name_FF
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hey Old Bob,

    What about support and service, who and where, etc. (See TIMan's questions). It is an important consideration.

    ------------------
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

  10. #10
    old Bob
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    Yo no_name_FF ,
    in answer to your excellent question,we are offering a 2 year warranty with full service and support out of our existing Elmsford,NY facility.Give them a ring on (914)592 6050 and ask for Colin Buggeln or the Argus2 desk for full details in addition to what`s on the web.

    ------------------
    old Bob M.

  11. #11
    gamber
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    At the Harrisburg expo the Argus 2 was there but the reps were selling the Evolution because service on the Argus 2 was poor because it had to be sent to England. They were very willing to sell Argus 2 cheaper than before. BST technology vs Microbolometer(evolution)

  12. #12
    old Bob
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Lightbulb

    Gamber,
    I can`t comment on the spin MSA sales put on the decision both MSA and ourselves took to go our separate ways several months ago.Marconi have set up a service and manufacturing capability in Elmsford,NY and are offering a free two year warranty with guaranteed 5 day turnaround.We believe BST technology will be here for a long time and are offering an option to extend warranty to 5 years.Our US Navy cameras have been in use for 15 years plus and we`re still supplying new cameras and spares.In short,Marconi are here for the long term as is Argus2.
    I know this isn`t the forum for sales pitches so please visit the website - www.argusdirect.com - or call toll free 888 587 0103 for the full story.
    Cheers,

    ------------------
    old Bob M.

  13. #13
    TIMan
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hello All,

    First let me say I am not trying to slam Old B or the Argus 2, my comments are just being triggered by what has been said, but they apply to everyone.

    Warranties
    This is another area you really need to do your homework in. First the most obvious thing, if it is not in writing it does not exist. Make sure whatever someone promises you is in writing, and if it is not a part of the standard literature but something added later on a piece of paper, get signatures. You should also determine which part of the warranty is provided by the actual manufacturer, and which part is being offered by the sales rep. If it comes from the factory you stand a fair chance, if it comes from a guy working out of the trunk of his car be real careful.

    You also have to dig deep and make sure you understand what the warranty will cover. Most warranties are against manufacturer’s defects. These defects (bad soldering job, bad connection, premature failures) in most cases should appear real quickly within the first couple of months. This means the 2 or 3 year warranties are not really doing you any good, because anything that happens a year after you have the unit is more likely due to wear and tear not a manufacturer’s defect. Try to decipher the legal mumbo jumbo as best you can. Ask a lot of questions. Most importantly, talk to other users and see what their experiences have been with warranty issues.

    It is getting to be a real dog eat dog world out there, so be real careful when people start promising things that seem to be to good to be true.

    Good Luck, Be Safe,
    “TIman”

    Bullard
    TI Training Specialist

    PS : to whom it may concern, this will be my last post on anything that is not directly related to training.

  14. #14
    FireFLIRMgr
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I have been away for a while thank goodness, but I did want to finish up this subject. I was product manager for MSA when we introduced the Argus 2. As I said, it is a decent BST hand-held camera. However, I know the reasons that MSA and EEV/Marconi parted ways, and I know why MSA subsequently aquired ISG Group. I have no desire to promote one of my competitors over another, but given the circumstances of the original post by no_name, I stand by my original recommendation. As for FireTic's comment, I am also against a manual aperture, yet, given what I know, I stand by my original post.

    As we all have said, do your homework. Talk to people who currently use the product. Make up your own mind. Perhaps what you are looking for is yet to come.


    Greg Hall
    FLIR

  15. #15
    IRalltheway
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    I have one question for FireFLIRMgr. In your last post you made the comment "maybe what your looking for is yet to come". Please expand, you have perked my interest!

    IRalltheway

  16. #16
    FireFLIRMgr
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    IRalltheway
    Every manufacturer worth it's salt is thinking about or working on an improved or new product for this market. Some may be further along than others. There are many good products available today, but if none really satisfy your needs, a little patience may prove fruitful.

    Greg Hall
    FireFLIR

  17. #17
    FireTIC
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FireFLIRMgr,
    Just wanted to clarify to some people who are not directly involved or associated with a manufacturer.
    In a previous post you stated MSA bought ISG Group. The actual name for this company is [I S I G], not to be confused with either ISI or ISG. Even though ISIG used to make the Vision-3 Thermal Imager for ISI, they are two separate companies.
    Just wanted to clarify that point so thier was no confusion. Maybe it was a slip of the keyboard.

    FRD

  18. #18
    IRalltheway
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    FireTIC you seem to know a lot about the different cameras, if ISIG built the Vision 3 then what camera is ISI going to build and sell now?

  19. #19
    FireTIC
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    IRalltheway,
    ISI will probably built and sell the Vision-4 Thermal Imager. Just kidding - I dont know. I heard from an MSA regional rep, that they will continue to build for ISI, but they could take ISI out of the market alltogether.

    FRD

  20. #20
    IRalltheway
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    FireTIC,

    The Vision 4? That's a new one, I haven't heard of that one before and either have the ISI reps that I have talked too! I think their might be some confusion between the factory and the reps, so all you ISI Vision users beware!

    IRalltheway!

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