Thread: Shift Schedules

  1. #1
    hawgwilde
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry Shift Schedules

    Our department currently works a 24/48 shift. Our mayor thinks there would be cost savings by going to a 10/14 or 8s. We would obviously have to hire a minimum of 20 additional personnel by switching shifts. Does anyone have documentation showing what they did to avoid this switch or if they did switch, how did you accomplish this? Any info would be greatly appreciated

  2. #2
    WRENCH
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    This is a reverse problem of what we have , however we want to go from 10/14 to 24/72. unfortunatly switching to 10/14 will not require extra men which is our argument why our town should let us change.switching from 10/14 to 24/48 or 24/72 reqiures no changes ,the same number of shifts are covered with the same manpower. if you went to a 24/72 then you would need more people.. switching to an 8hr schedule is definitely out of the question as lot more manpower is required to cover the shifts in a month.In NJ hours are set by law .the other place they will run into trouble is in the federal fair labor standard which set the number of hours that can be worked over an 8 week cycle. not knowing what is in your contract or your states laws ,the best suggestion is get a copy the the fair labor standards and start boning up as they cover the mentioned hours of work as well as sleep time,meal time, and what is covered compensation time. its very intresting reading.Also in our state change of work schedule is manditorly negogtible. as I said before also check your states labor laws. Good Luck

  3. #3
    Truck 2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Sounds like you have one of those mayors that has a problem with paying firefighters to sleep! What does he think your going to do on the 11 to 7 shift? test hydrants! We work 10's/14's and love it, two ten hour days then two 14 hour nights then 4 days off with no Kelly days.
    Lt.Chuck
    Truck-2
    C-platoon

  4. #4
    BurrHFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We work 24/48. This is the way the City pays us. They pay us for 161/4 hrs per shift from 06:45 to 23:00 hrs. if we get a call after 23:00 hrs. They pay us for the time we are out on the call. If we do not get 5 hours of sleep they pay us for the hold 241/4 hrs.
    and in a 28 pay cycle we are over 212 hours they pay us time and a half for every hour
    over 212. there are many ways that they can pay you. Fair labor standard act has many loop holes.
    also if we are call back for a fire we get paid our hourly wage. and we are Guarantee a min of 1 hour pay no matter if we are only at the call for 5 mins.
    Have any question please contact me at.
    Hartsville fire Dept.
    (843)383-3000
    or E-mail at Burr06@firehousemail.com
    Jeff Burr

  5. #5
    benson911
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    BurrHFD - That sucks! If you aren't going to pay me to be at the station, then I'm going home and I'll answer a pager from there! They can't have a full-time department, with staffing 24 hours a day and only offer to pay for 16.25 hours out of the 24. That's ridiculous! I would definitely bring this up at the next negotiations. It's just wrong. (You are union, right?)

    Sleeping at the firehouse is NOT sleeping. I never get a good nights rest at the firehouse, even if we don't get a run. It's just not the same as being at home.

    BTW - how are your "hours on the run" calculated for runs at night? Do they allow for time to clean up after a run, fuel the trucks, restock the equipment? Have they ever tried to go back to sleep after a false alarm that lasted only 15 minutes, but you were awake for 3 hours? You are getting shafted by an administration that knows NOTHING about shift work, or work as a firefighter/paramedic.

  6. #6
    Ed Shanks
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I've got to agree with Benson911 - BurrHFD, you guys are being had! Even the private ambulance companies around here pay their people for the time they're on duty. I also agree that if I'm not being paid - I'm going home. I'd much rather spend the night with my wife, in my own bed, rather than in a bunkroom where the snores and farts sound like a Brass Choir some nights!

    Hawgwilde - you're going to have to add a whole shift - officers and all, not just a handful of firefighters. We work 24/48s, too. We have 3 shifts. a 10/14 requires 4 shifts. Also, with two shift changes per day there's twice the likelyhood someone is going to get held over, costing more overtime to the department. When you go to work more times per month there is a greater likelyhood that someone will call off sick. More OT. They'll pay more holiday pay, too. (That is, they'll pay holiday pay to more people. Instead of paying A-shift they'll pay A-shift for the 10-hour day and D-shift for the 14-hour night.)

    File a grievance and get a court injunction to make them hold off until the grievance is settled. At the grievance hearing, ask them to show how the department will benefit from the new schedule. Ask what's wrong with the 24/48 schedule. Why fix something that isn't broken?


    ------------------
    E-4-A
    IAFF 1176
    RKMC MAL

  7. #7
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We work the California schedule, 24 on 24 off 24 on 24 off 24 on 96 off. I love it. I used to work for a department that did the 24/48 with a Kelly every 3 weeks. The California beats that all to pieces.

    I believe the only place the 10/14 makes sense is in a large city where the run total is so heavy the FF are taking such a beating that they just can't work a 24 hour shift. You better get the Union working on this. This doesn't sound good to me. If in order to keep crew size consistant the Mayor will need to hire 20 FFs how can he save money with this plan? I can't help but wonder if the plan is just to thin out your current crew size to cover the additional shifts and perhaps use call backs or paid on calls to augment at a big fire.

    BurrHFD...are you a FF with a contract FD? To say, a government owned facility, protected by a fire department ran by the company operating the facility? We have a very similar situation not far from here. They work 2-24's where they get paid for 16 hours each shift, unless they have a run. And then they work an 8 to get 40 hours total. What a major screwing that is! I agree with benson911 and Ed Shanks, a full night of sleep at the FD, can't remember the last time that happened, is not the same as a full nights sleep at home. I hardly ever feel rested after a night at the FD. Whoever is paying you is robbing you. If you are required to be there, they should be paying you. If you are on a municipal department, heaven help you. Where is the Union? What are your dues going for? If you are not Union, why not?

    This post could get interesting.

    Take care all,

    Don


  8. #8
    Lieutenant Gonzo
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Most of the career departments in the Northeast work the 42 hour schedule, there are different variations, but the average still comes to 42.

    Hawgwilde: your department would have to add an entire shift of firtefighters and officers to go to 10's and 14's. That is great for manpower and additional help on callbacks, but would be expensive. 8 hour shifts are a fantasy..undoubtably dreamed up by the mayor because he has a vendetta against the fire department. Maybe he doesn't think you should be able to sleep...if you have to work an 8 hour shift, you could do your training on his street every night to let him and his neighbors know that you're awake!

    BurrHFD: I agree with Benson, Ed and Fyredup. Your personnel are getting screwed royally. If your department isn't unionized, then it ought to be. If you have to be there 24 hours, you should be paid for 24 hours!

    ------------------
    Take care and be safe...Lt. Gonzo

  9. #9
    Romania
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We also work the Cailfornia schedual...Love it. We get paid for every hour we are at the station with FLSA overtime. I personally woudl like straight overtime like the private ambulance crews around here, we are up as much as they are and we run 75% + EMS runs. 16 hours of OT would be nice instead of 3! Not sure I like that 10/14 stuff, but I would have to work it for a while to find out... how many platoons do you run with a 10/14... I could only make it work with 4+.

    ------------------
    Alan Romania, CEP
    romania@uswest.net
    IAFF Local 3449

    My Opinions do not reflect the opnions of the IAFF or Local 3449.



  10. #10
    FFE3BFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We are one of the NJ Departments that just switched to 24/72's and must say we love it. Used to work 10/14's what the union did is research other cities that made the switch to see if sick time decreased and in the cases we looked at it did.

  11. #11
    FFE3BFD
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We are one of the NJ Departments that just switched to 24/72's and must say we love it. Used to work 10/14's and what the union did is research other cities that made the switch to see if sick time decreased and in the cases we looked at it did.

  12. #12
    fireman116
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We currently work the 24/48. This is great we are on a 21 day pay period, work a 56 hour work week and are guaranteed 9 hrs ot. Any call back is time and a half no matter if it is 5 min. We get paid for all hours at the stations. The good thing about the 24/48 is the time you have to work a second job. Plus if you take on shift off you get 5 days off and so on. It is hard to change to a different work schedule, but you can alway put it on like a 3 month trial period and if it don't work switch back.

    [This message has been edited by fireman116 (edited February 11, 2000).]

  13. #13
    Michrehf
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    I am sure after reading the replies, you either love your shift or you don't have much of a shift! 10's/14's with 4 off works great for me. I have friends in Montgomery Co. that do 24's/72's. The info on 48 hour weeks is available from the IAFF. We have been threatened with the dreaded "take the beds out" politic BS, it hasn't happened and I doubt it will. Work on a 48 hour week and you will love it.Good luck.


    ------------------
    Michael R. Rehfeld
    Firefighter
    Baltimore County, Maryland
    IAFF Local 1311

  14. #14
    Michrehf
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    I am sure after reading the replies, you either love your shift or you don't have much of a shift! 10's/14's with 4 off works great for me. I have friends in Montgomery Co. that do 24's/72's. The info on 48 hour weeks is available from the IAFF. We have been threatened with the dreaded "take the beds out" politic BS, it hasn't happened and I doubt it will. Work on a 48 hour week and you will love it.Good luck.


    ------------------
    Michael R. Rehfeld
    Firefighter
    Baltimore County, Maryland
    IAFF Local 1311

  15. #15
    mfgentili
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Two years ago our department went from 2-10s, and 2-14s with 4 days off to 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 days off. It averages 42 hours per week over an eight week cycle just as our previous schedule did. At first our members were reluctant to try it. Biggest concerns were if we had multiple fires on the same shift or the idea of being away from home for longer periods of time. The first vote for this new schedule was very close. The members voted to try it for one year with the stipulation to vote again after that one year trial period. A year later, the new vote was almost unanimous in favor of the 24 hour shift. Our contract states that either the union or the city administration can revert to the old schedule with proper notice. I don't see that happening because most of our members love it and the city has saved tons of money in overtime costs. Sick leave has been cut way down with this schedule, especially on the night tricks. We have minimum manning of 4 per company so if there is a lot of sick use, overtime costs can be quite high. Granted, sometimes 24 hours on can seem like an eternity, especially on a slow day but those 5 days off sure make up for it.

    ------------------
    Mike Gentili
    New Bedford Fire Dept.

  16. #16
    mfgentili
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Another added benefit in favor of the city that I forgot to mention above is the saving in OT cost at change of shift. By eliminating the night time shift change, companies that are out on a call do not have to be compensated for extension of duty. The 24 hour shift cuts the chance of this happening in half.

    ------------------
    Mike Gentili
    New Bedford Fire Dept.

    [This message has been edited by mfgentili (edited March 12, 2000).]

  17. #17
    Smoke286
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our Dept uses the 24/72 shift and we love it, I understand that the Dept used a 10/14 shift nearly 20 years ago and it only lasted 10 months, I am unclear as to what the reason was ,but apparently it cost the city a lot more money

  18. #18
    willy164
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    How about this......We are a NJ Department and currently work 10/14s....A little over 4yrs ago we went into negotiations and JUST recently settled...well partially...we rode out the whole storm during our negotiations....arbitration/fair and final/signing this and signing that...you guys know where we've been. HOWEVER....among the give and take of negotiating,we went for the 24/72 gig. This is where it becomes interesting.We were awarded our contract fair and final....EVERYTHING...pay raises/scheduling change/etc....Out of the blue...our township manager decided that an outside agency (perc) would not dictate scheduling to him and denied our union what was rightfully ours. We took this (as the governing body of our township did as well) to every level of court...and every judge who heard our case agreed that 24s were a negotiable item and that we should be granted the schedule change without condition. Well, here we are 4 yrs later (and ready to negotitiate our NEXT contract) and are still working 10/14s. We continue to fight as they continue to appeal. Scheduling can be a rough area when it comes to negotiations and all I can say to you Brothers is DO YOUR HOMEWORK first and then fight them tooth and nail. Stay safe in the meantime.

  19. #19
    Lt. Chester
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    MFgentili{NBFD} can you get me a copy of your schedule? I my dept we have 15(minimum} per shift. We do 10's/14's. We keep asking for manpower and I think the city is gonna say go 24/48 cut down to 3 shifts and distribute the remaining shift across the board. Overall sentiment here is we will fight this proposal tooth and nail. I am still kinda leery about this change but would appreciate the manning.

    [This message has been edited by Lt. Chester (edited April 07, 2000).]

  20. #20
    mfgentili
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Lt. Chester, it works like this:

    X=ON DUTY O=OFF DUTY

    Shifts start at 0800.

    WK-S----M----T----W----T----F----S
    1----X----O----X----O----O----O----O
    2----O----X----O----X----O----O----O
    3----O----O----X----O----X----O----O
    4----O----O----O----X----O----X----O
    5----O----O----O----O----X----O----X
    6----O----O----O----O----O----X----O
    7----X----O----O----O----O----O----X
    8----O----X----O----O----O----O----O

    We have 4 groups A-B-C-D and minimum manning of 4 per company which equals 44 per shift.
    After 8 weeks, the cycle starts over again. This schedule works out to an average of 42 hours per week on duty after the 8 week cycle is completed.
    I hope this is what you are looking for. If you need more info, e-mail me.

    ------------------
    Mike Gentili
    New Bedford Fire Dept.



    [This message has been edited by mfgentili (edited April 08, 2000).]

  21. #21
    Lt. Chester
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    mfgentili thanks!! now seeing it all down I have the picture. Stay safe!!

  22. #22
    Truck 132
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our department went from 24/48's to a 24/48/24/96 schedule on Jan 1. this year. It works out that I work 2 days in an eight day period.

    We have a maximum of 13 debit days that we have to pay back. They are broken down this way - 8 days to cover our personal leave, 3.5 days to cover sick leave and 1.5 to cover any training/classes that get scheduled. When we went to this schedule, we gave up our kelly days'(2) and our sick leave overtime, however the city turned around and gave part of it back, to the tune of an additional $1000 per year on my longevity so I have not noticed any reduction in yearly wages to this point.

    The nice thing about this is more time off, an increased hourly and overtime rate and got moved to a senior dirver/step up captain position because of the promotion of a new BC and Capt.

    IF you want more information about our schedule, our contract is on our website www.webpak.net/~cfd
    ------------------


    [This message has been edited by Truck 132 (edited July 02, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Truck 132 (edited July 02, 2000).]

  23. #23
    phyrngn
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    My department works 7 on, 8 off...that is, we work a 24 hour shift starting on Wednesday...we work W, F, Sun, Tu, Th, Sat, Mon, and then get 8 days off...it averages out to 56 hours per week, whether we're there or not...I like it, myself....one of the few jobs I've had where I actually look forward to Mondays!!

  24. #24
    phyrngn
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    My department works 7 on, 8 off...that is, we work a 24 hour shift starting on Wednesday...we work W, F, Sun, Tu, Th, Sat, Mon, and then get 8 days off...it averages out to 56 hours per week, whether we're there or not...I like it, myself....one of the few jobs I've had where I actually look forward to Mondays!!

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