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  1. #21
    Forum Member bfdhoser1's Avatar
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    Default Great idea ? ! ?

    So given your proposal , I got one - every Firefighter who has a "second job" or a second front as its called in the Buffalo New York Fire Department - or anyone who volunteers for any thing outside the Department they work in should also pay your "Head tax."

    Its not the "Volunteers" that are endangering paid jobs - its the slow - methodical break down of Union contracts and the Politicizing of those Unions. Labor Unions are becoming "Political Action Groups" - instead of protecting their members.

    Too many of them are using the Union Dues as their own way to gain "Political/Personal" influence. They tell you we need the "Politicians" on our side at contract time - have you ever checked your states Board of Elections website - do you know actually how much is "Donated" and to who ? Do you know in what way this "Politician" is supposed to be able to help ? Have you ever checked their "Documented voting records?"

    Has your Department ever had a State or Federal level "Politician" enter into any local contract "negotiations" on your behalf ? When was the last time a Congressmen came to your home town and told the Mayor to honor your contract or give you a better health care package?

    Instead of fearing & chastising those who want to volunteer - why not ask those you pay to actually work for you !

    Please post the web link to your state "Board of Elections" website - after you go there and under "Campaign Finance disclosures" tap in your Local Unions PAC fund name or the name of your Local - eg: Buffalo Professional Firefighters Local 282 - and see who should be working to safe guard your job.

    Just my thoughts :

    Heres New York States:http://www.elections.state.ny.us/NYS...bandexpend.htm

    http://buffalopolitics.blogspot.com/
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    23 years B.F.D. Local 282
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  2. #22
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    Default Major run on sentence alert.

    Ok Disgruntled Buffalo Guy.... What exactly does my proposal to have municpal departments who employ career firefighters on a part-time basis for next to nothing contribute to fund presumptive illness and disability claims that they are partly responsible for and YOUR beef against YOUR unions leadership have to do with one another ?
    IAFF-IACOJ PROUD

  3. #23
    Forum Member bfdhoser1's Avatar
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    Wink A different point of view !

    Well , I just assumed we were all discussing the same issue. I believe the topic centered around "Volunteers" & "Personal Freedoms" - thats what most posts in this thread were pertaining to. I think your looking from a different angle.

    I respect your views - but not your implications. I am not a "Disgruntled" any thing. I totally support Unions and our Constitutional Freedoms. I choose to not believe your Employer or Union should have the right to dictate what you do in your "Off-Duty Time"

    When another person - anyone - can impose their agenda upon another , its removing your freedoms.

    I worked 13 years with the U.A.W. - never did anyone tell me what "side jobs" - or "Hobbies" - or "Tattoos" - I should or shouldn't have.

    B.F.D. 23 years - slowly I see this Union go from a worker oriented protectionist organization - to nothing more than a minority Politically Controlled P.A.C. Fund. Mainly inhabited by people pushing the "Controlling Party's agenda" instead of safe guarding the Majority of its members contractual rights.

    Everyone says our Government is "Breaking our Unions" - well isn't the Union supporting those same people with our Union Dues ? Why ?

    Divisiveness is the key tool - we keep blaming each other - race , Politics , ethnicity , male/female and so on .

    Most firefighters will say they became one because they support their Community. But we are taught to fear - distrust - and chastise those who would "Volunteer or Serve" for less pay than we would.

    Why not let the Volunteers join the Union - use there dues to fund your proposed "Head Tax" - I bet they would be willing.

    But safety and all those other reasons sighted aren't the "True issue" - its about "Implied Job Losses"

    Thats my opinion -

    http://buffalopolitics.blogspot.com/
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    23 years B.F.D. Local 282
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  4. #24
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    Default

    Here is the crux of the two-hatter problem.

    You work for BFD and are a vollie for one of the dozen or so vollie houses in Amherst (lived in Lockport so I know the area.)

    You have a heart attack after you make a false alarm call for your vollie house, but was also less than 24 hours of your normal duty day at the BFD. Who pays your bills and disability?

    Initially no one will. The city's workers compensation will say it happened on your vollie "job" and they should pay. Then the vollie workers compensation insurance carrier will say it was caused by the 15 runs you made at your paying job. Next the lawyers get involved between the two departments. You throw your attorney in the mix to get some kind of help. You don't want to know what happens when three lawyers get together.

    All this time your bills go unpaid because neither side wants to pay the claim.

    If that is where you want to be then take your chances.

  5. #25
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post
    Here is the crux of the two-hatter problem.

    You work for BFD and are a vollie for one of the dozen or so vollie houses in Amherst (lived in Lockport so I know the area.)

    You have a heart attack after you make a false alarm call for your vollie house, but was also less than 24 hours of your normal duty day at the BFD. Who pays your bills and disability?

    Initially no one will. The city's workers compensation will say it happened on your vollie "job" and they should pay. Then the vollie workers compensation insurance carrier will say it was caused by the 15 runs you made at your paying job. Next the lawyers get involved between the two departments. You throw your attorney in the mix to get some kind of help. You don't want to know what happens when three lawyers get together.

    All this time your bills go unpaid because neither side wants to pay the claim.

    If that is where you want to be then take your chances.

    Very good post Lex.

  6. #26
    Forum Member bfdhoser1's Avatar
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    Default Yes , but !

    Unfortunately, your scenario is mostly accurate. But lets say you worked any other job - the same is true.

    The BFD would still try and argue coverage - you'd still most likely need a lawyer. I have seen guys go through this many times in the last twenty three years.

    I know guys that hurt themselves at the BFD - go home - they go to their doctor about the new pain - then when they report off or try to claim an on duty incident their treated like criminals. I have seen guys injure rotator cups and wait a year for the Department to authorize a MRI.

    Guys have had to use vacation and sick time to keep a pay check coming while the Department argues and stalls. I have seen the Department change guys from injured status to sick - without explanations as to the basis for the change.

    So - whether its a paid second job or volunteering its most likely going to be a hassle for the person injured.

    Lastly , I think part of what your missing is "Personal Freedom." No employer or Union should dictate what you do in your "Off Duty Time" - whether its a hobby , Politics , tattoos or another job.

    Hell , you could get hurt in a car accident , what then ?

    Once your "Off Duty - Your off Duty."

    www.bfd-firedepartment.com
    23 years B.F.D. Local 282
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  7. #27
    the 4-1-4 Jasper 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfdhoser1 View Post
    Unfortunately, your scenario is mostly accurate. But lets say you worked any other job - the same is true.

    Except for the heart/lung bill aspect, which is a benefit unique to firefighting.



    So - whether its a paid second job or volunteering its most likely going to be a hassle for the person injured.
    Only if you're going to try and collect on the heart/ling bill. If you volunteer for a department, and suffer burns at a fire, there is not going to be much of an issue as to who should be responsible to your claim. The problem comes in when you want to get a claim because you suffer a heart attack 15 years later, or you suffer from lung cancer and decide it's in your best interest to seek your benefit from the heart/lung.
    Buffalo looks at your case, and questions whether your injury was because of your service to the city of Buffalo, or whether it was from your service to the volunteer department.

    Lastly , I think part of what your missing is "Personal Freedom." No employer or Union should dictate what you do in your "Off Duty Time" - whether its a hobby , Politics , tattoos or another job.
    This isn't entirely true. We have fought long and hard against our city residency policy, which is being told to do something on your off-duty time. We have been ruled against a number of times. We also have policies against using drugs, etc...
    Beside the point, the union isn't telling you what to do in your off-duty time, they are advising you to do what they think is in the best interest of the union membership. Right or wrong, we pay our dues to have the union try to look out for us. If that isn't your cup of tea, you can separate from the union.

    The fact remains that you're a member of a labor union, and derive many benefits from the membership. If you disagree with a policy it has, you can try change it, or out right ignore it. If you choose to ignore it, don't complain if sanctions are taken against you.



    Hell , you could get hurt in a car accident , what then ?
    If you're hurt in a car accident, off-duty, you aren't going to be filing for a heart/lung bill claim. That is also why we have sick leave.
    If you become sick with an illness covered by heart/lung, you'll be filing for a claim. If you have multiple departments on your resume, the potential is there for a city to dispute that they are the ones responsible. Don't think for a minute that cash-strapped cities won't be fighting to save nickels and dimes at our expense.


    To me this issue has never been about volunteers taking our jobs, and it hasn't been with my local. It has always been about keeping our benefit as easy to access as possible. There are loop holes, no doubt about it, and other aspects that hypocritical with it, like smoking. You can only tackle one aspect at a time, though.

  8. #28
    Forum Member DennisTheMenace's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lexfd5 View Post
    How do you even dig up an eight year old thread? Wasn't Clinton president when this thread started?
    Folks ask a question and they get the "search button" reply, guys use the search button and they get the "this thread is so damn old" reply......
    Be for Peace, but don't be for the Enemy!
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    Learn from the mistakes of others; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by nyckftbl View Post
    LOL....dont you people have anything else to do besides b*tch about our b*tching?

  9. #29
    Forum Member bfdhoser1's Avatar
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    Default Double standards ? ! ?

    [QUOTE=jasper45;965169]Except for the heart/lung bill aspect, which is a benefit unique to firefighting.

    Agreed !

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    [QUOTE=jasper45;965169]Buffalo looks at your case, and questions whether your injury was because of your service to the city of Buffalo, or whether it was from your service to the volunteer department.

    Buffalo Fire Department has changed F.F.'s from injured status to sick - without any medical facts to support the change. Its a harassment tactic.

    The Buffalo Fire Departments past "Legal Rep." accused a guy of "Faking" his illness/injuries - (Legal Rep.) wrote in a letter of charges that he had "Proof" - in a hearing he was asked by the F.F.(Not the Union or their lawyer) to present this medical "Proof" - he then said, "I heard from a nurse - your injuries weren't that bad." - needless to say that charge was dropped.
    Now remember the Union and their lawyer were witness to this whole incident and said nothing to defend or express any outrage over this witch hunt - nothing !


    [QUOTE=jasper45;965169]This isn't entirely true. We have fought long and hard against our city residency policy, which is being told to do something on your off-duty time. We have been ruled against a number of times. We also have policies against using drugs, etc...
    Beside the point, the union isn't telling you what to do in your off-duty time, they are advising you to do what they think is in the best interest of the union membership. Right or wrong, we pay our dues to have the union try to look out for us. If that isn't your cup of tea, you can separate from the union.

    How many of those people, "Advising" you on what to do or don't do in your off duty time have other "Jobs" or businesses off duty ? If its only "Advising" you - then why can you be brought up on charges over it ?

    [QUOTE=jasper45;965169]The fact remains that you're a member of a labor union, and derive many benefits from the membership. If you disagree with a policy it has, you can try change it, or out right ignore it. If you choose to ignore it, don't complain if sanctions are taken against you.

    Agreed - but doesn't the Fire Department Admin and the Union have to also follow their own "Policies and procedures" fairly and apply them honestly to all members ?

    [QUOTE=jasper45;965169]If you're hurt in a car accident, off-duty, you aren't going to be filing for a heart/lung bill claim. That is also why we have sick leave.
    If you become sick with an illness covered by heart/lung, you'll be filing for a claim. If you have multiple departments on your resume, the potential is there for a city to dispute that they are the ones responsible. Don't think for a minute that cash-strapped cities won't be fighting to save nickels and dimes at our expense.

    What if those preaching this do as I say - not as I do Policy have "Other jobs and businesses" where they engage in a "Hazardous" situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasper45 View Post
    To me this issue has never been about volunteers taking our jobs, and it hasn't been with my local. It has always been about keeping our benefit as easy to access as possible. There are loop holes, no doubt about it, and other aspects that hypocritical with it, like smoking. You can only tackle one aspect at a time, though.
    Agreed - almost ! Why does it appear these and other "Guidelines" are usually enforced upon the "average Firefighter" - why does it seem that with "Rank or status" comes special rules? What about speed boating , motorcycle riding , horse back riding , smoking , - if those were "Union Protected" would we be allowed to participate in our "Off Duty Time?"


    Don't get me wrong I support Unions - 13 years U.A.W. - 23 years Local 282 - My family has over 80 years of almost all Union Working members. I am pro-Union - I am pro-personal choice !
    www.bfd-firedepartment.com
    Last edited by bfdhoser1; 07-06-2008 at 01:35 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Engine 3, At the state affi convention last month in Peoria a committee was formed to look into being a P.O.C. and volunteer for another department. There are concerns with volunteering and P.O.C. at another union department, this might causing layoffs. My past local had a section in the bylaws that forbid it, but it was not enforced because we are in rural area. I would check your bylaws with your local.

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