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  1. #1
    Ricky Bodin
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post Al Gore vs. Bush

    Since it was mentioned in another thread, The career firefighters that are considering voting for Bush rather than supporting Gore had better check Bush's record here in Texas.
    Bush has lobbied against and vetoed every piece of legisligation that was union backed.
    Al Gore on the other hand has a 100% record voting for union backed efforts as a senator and has supported every union effort as vice president including the investigation by the feds of EVERY line of duty death. If Bush wins you can count on a long dark period for unions and legislative protection.

  2. #2
    Firehouse.com Guest



    To be honest with you, this is the third presidential election in a row where I didn't see any great redeeming value in either major party candidate. Not that the fringe parties have anything better to offer.

    I am sorry but I just can't vote single issues on a candidate for political office. I understand the importance of having a strong pro firefighter president, but not at the expense of other rights and principles I hold dear.

    Besides promises to firefighters are worth their weight in helium.

    I am so disillussioned with both parties and their candidates I am not sure where to turn.

    Take care and stay safe,


    These are my opinions, yours may differ.
    That's okay. Have a nice day.

  3. #3
    Firehouse.com Guest


    This may get me in trouble but I don't mind really. Here goes.....

    Unions were great until they decided that every single thing management wanted to do was horrible and everything the union wanted to do was great and the union would support whatever pol tossed them the most crumbs. This means Democrats whether the membership likes it or not. As it's been mentioned in other threads, this means your dues are going to support candidates and parties that you may not agree with. Is that right? Since when did citizens of a democracy start handing over their votes to what amounts to managers in union suits? And yes, I know, they can't control what happens in the voting booth, but they can use your money and your implied support to the advantage of those you don't support and, as we just saw with the originator, some people really will do whatever they're told.

  4. #4
    Irish Emeralds
    Firehouse.com Guest


    Due to the fact that Rep & Dems both take the fire service for granted, I agree that just because a few union bigwigs(AFL-CIO) support Gore, that will still mean very little for the fire service.

  5. #5
    Firehouse.com Guest


    I truly believe, you are looking way too high for help. I Chief Executive of this country could care less about it's firefighters.
    Your efforts are beter spent at lower levels of government.

  6. #6
    Firehouse.com Guest


    "Bush has lobbied against and vetoed every piece of legisligation that was union backed."

    For this statement to be true, you're stating the union didn't back the legislation allowing industry to donate their used firefighting equipment (SCBAs, trucks, hose, etc...) to departments (via the TFS) and not carry any liability as a result. (http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlo/75R/billtext/HB00680F.HTM)

    I'd be willing to bet the union opposed this as the procedes were to go to volunteers.

    He vetoed HB 2750 requiring a city to pay extra for a bi-lingual firefighter. Good, that's the city, not the states responsibility.

    What about SB 396?

    "A written agreement made under this subchapter between a public employer and a fire fighters association recognized as the sole and exclusive bargaining agent is enforceable and binding upon the public employer, the fire fighters association recognized as the sole and exclusive bargaining agent, and fire fighters covered by the agreement if:
    (1) the municipality's governing body ratified the agreement by a majority vote; and
    (2) the fire fighters association ratified the agreement by a majority of the votes received in a referendum [vote] of its members by secret ballot."

    The union opposed this? Why?

    List the rest please.

    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited August 30, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited August 30, 2000).]

  7. #7
    Da Sharkie
    Firehouse.com Guest


    I have to agree with Fyredup. A voter has to vote for the person they believe is right for the country and not themselves necessarily. You can't vote for someone because he says he supports the firefighters' plight. You have to know how he feels about several issues.

    A case in point. Last governors' election we had the state attorney general, a flaming liberal, who said at a union sponsored rally something like "Organized labor's agenda is my agenda." Screw the rest of you I'm going to go with the unions. Not to mention that the majority of workers in this country are not union. I can understand that they want union support but I don't necessarily think it is the unions' place to support a candidate wspecially if the majority of their members do not support the creep. Uh, I mean politician.

    Anyway, take care adn stay safe.

    I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything.

  8. #8
    Firehouse.com Guest


    A few more...

    Ricky says...

    "Bush has lobbied against and vetoed every piece of legisligation that was union backed."

    So following his logic, the following would not be supported by the union because Bush signed them into law.

    HB 1078 requiring restoration or credit of benefits lost as a result of the suspension, including sick leave, vacation leave, and service credit in a retirement system. Standard payroll deductions, if any, for retirement and other benefits restored shall be made from the compensation paid, and the municipality shall make its standard corresponding contributions, if any, to the retirement system or other applicable benefit systems.

    Why did the union oppose this?

    SB1107 for payments to surving family members of a firefighter killed in the line of duty.

    Why did the union oppose this?

  9. #9
    Ricky Bodin
    Firehouse.com Guest


    Everyone has brought out some very good points about some legslation that I obvously missed during my research.
    I also agree with another post that said "Your efforts are better spent at lower levels of government." I was just trying to bring out that Bush is anti union and that should at least be a consideration during the upcoming elections.

  10. #10
    Firehouse.com Guest


    "Bush is anti union"

    When did he declare he was anti-union? I just gave you several examples where he supported us. Yet you haven't provided one instance where he hasn't. You've just repeated the party line.

    On the other hand the union is anti-Bush and our beloved IAFF leadership that can do no wrong shot us in the foot by endorsing Gore so early in the game without even considering Bush.

    Now, Bush owes us nothing; if we wouldn't give him the opportunity to speak to us, why should he give us the opportunity to speak with him?

    We wouldn't have a leg to stand on when he's elected, but fortunately he's a decent guy and will do what's right in spite of the IAFF. In your own words, "that should at least be a consideration during the upcoming elections."

    So I'll ask you again, which legislation has Bush vetoed the IAFF supported? I'll make it easy on you to do the research, here's the links to bills before the Texas Legislature that apply to fire departments (police bills are in there too):

    Tell you what, I'll make it even easier for you, Bush only vetod 2 bills, the one I mentioned in an earlier post and I'll let you find the other, but it had no effect on the union in any way shape or form. If you look at them, you'll notice most are left pending or died in committee, reffered to some other committee or whatever. These are democratic controlled committees, who could do no wrong in the unions eyes.

    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited September 01, 2000).]

  11. #11
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    I couldn't resist any longer. Enjoy.

    May god bless all those who run from public office." JTR
    ****************************** ****************************** *****
    "If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."
    * Al Gore

    "Democrats understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child."
    * Vice President Al Gore

    "Welcome to President Clinton, Mrs. Clinton, and my fellow astronauts."
    * Vice President Al Gore

    "Mars is essentially in the same orbit. Mars is somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe."
    * Vice President Al Gore, 8/11/94

    "The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century.
    I didn't live in this century."
    * Vice President Al Gore, 9/15/95

    "I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy - but that could change."
    * Vice President Al Gore, 5/22/98

    "One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president,
    and that one word is 'to be prepared'."
    * Vice President Al Gore, 12/6/93

    "Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things."
    * Vice President Al Gore, 11/30/96

    "I have made good judgments in the past. I have made good judgments in the future."
    * Vice President Al Gore

    "The future will be better tomorrow."
    * Vice President Al Gore

    "We're going to have the best-educated American people in the world."
    * Vice President Al Gore, 9/21/97

    "People that are really very weird can get into sensitive positions and have a tremendous impact on history."
    * Vice President Al Gore

    "I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
    * Vice President Al Gore to Sam Donaldson, 8/17/93

    "We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."
    * Vice President Al Gore

    "Public speaking is very easy."
    * Vice President Al Gore to reporters in 10/95

    "I am not part of the problem. I am a Democrat."
    * Vice President Al Gore

    "A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls."
    * Vice President Al Gore

    "When I have been asked who caused the riots and the killing in L.A.,my answer has been direct and simple: Who is to blame for the riots?
    * Al Gore

    The rioters are to blame. Who is to blame for the killings? The killers are to blame.
    * Al Gore

    "Illegitimacy is something we should talk about in terms of not having it."
    * Vice President Al Gore, 5/20/96

    "We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."
    * Vice President Al Gore, 9/22/97

    "For NASA, space is still a high priority."
    * Vice President Al Gore, 9/5/93

    "Quite frankly, teachers are the only profession that teach our children."
    * Vice President Al Gore, 9/18/95

    "The American people would not want to know of any misquotes that Al Gore may or may not make."
    * Vice President Al Gore

    "We're all capable of mistakes, but I do not care to enlighten you on the mistakes we may or may not have made."
    * Vice President Al Gore

    "It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it."
    * Vice President Al Gore

    "[It's] time for the human race to enter the solar system."
    * Vice President Al Gore


    "As many of you know, I was very instrumental in the founding of
    the Internet."
    * Al Gore to Katie Couric 3/99

  12. #12
    Firehouse.com Guest


    OK, I really don't expect an answer, but I gotta ask Ricky:

    Ricky says...

    "Everyone has brought out some very good points about some legslation that I obvously missed during my research" Quite an understatement.

    Mongo asks..

    Where did you get the information for your research?

    Did you really do the research or did you just believe something somebody told you?

    (It only took 5 minutes for me to find out your sources lied to you.)

    Either way, now that you know your sources for your research lied to you, do you trust them to help you choose your next president?

    Do you know what else have they lied to you about?

    Do you still trust them? After all they only lied to you because they have your best interest in mind. Right?

    Will you list your sources please?

    By now if you did the research you'll see that Bush vetoed 2 fire related bills that would only affect the vollys. They had absolutely no effect for career departments at all.

    Two addiitional bills from the 74th legislature were also vetoed (sorry I missed them in the earlier post). One regarding personnel records and another where they wanted to remove "who is not covered by a civil service statute" in the definition of firefighter. Both of these I would expect the IAFF to endorse Bush's veto.

    Now that I said all that, you stated "Bush has lobbied against and vetoed every piece of legisligation that was union backed."

    Do you now wish that we believe the IAFF supports volunteer fire departments? The same volunteer departments that keep paying jobs out of the hands of potential dues paying IAFF members?

    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited September 02, 2000).]

  13. #13
    Firehouse.com Guest



    I was with you brother....giving the hallelujas until you had to do that thing. Turn a political discussion into an us versus them thing, volly versus paid. Your statement about vollies, in general, taking IAFF jobs is an indefensible as Ricky's unsubstantiated statements on Bush (This should NOT be taken as an endorsement of any candidate).

    Of course there are instances where vollies should probably either be replaced with career FF's or at least augmented by an on duty crew of career FF's. But to blanket say that vollies, meaning all of them, are taking career jobs is just nonsense. I am a career FF and a volly. In two different communities, of course. Where I live is a small rural community. There are only 7 career FF's in the whole county and not on my volly FD. The run total, and the tax base, can't support a career FD here. Whose job are we taking if there are no jobs to take?

    It is hardline attitudes like yours that prevent the fire service from having a cohesive voice and keeps us from getting what we need. It never ceases to amaze me when FF's moan about no federal money or support for the NFA. If we can't put forward a united front how can we emphasize the seriousness of our needs? The feds just laugh at us...Why take us seriously when we have met the enemy and he is us?

    Take care and stay safe,


    This is my opinion. Yours may differ. Have a nice day!

  14. #14
    Firehouse.com Guest



    I think you read me wrong, I'm in the same boat you are - and catch hell for it too. In fact I live in an area protected by a VFD.

    It was not my intent to turn this into a career VS paid debate and the question about a volly taking a career job IS NOT a statement on my position.

    My intent was to show Ricky how weak his arguements (and the IAFFs position on Gore)are.

    I don't think there is any doubt the union is opposed to VFDs. (You can go back and read some of the pro VS volly stuff that gets shut down on here and see that. You pointed the dbl standrad out nicely when you said "Why is it those same guys who say you as a volly are taking a career FF job don't think twice when they work the trades on the side?").

    Ricky says Bush l&v every piece the IAFF wanted.

    Last 2 sessions Bush vetoed only 2 bills and these would only benefit vollys.

    Therefore, following Rickys logic the IAFF now supports vollys:

    1. he veoted every piece the IAFF wanted (according to Ricky); but,
    2. he only vetoed legislation effecting vollys (according to the Texas Legislature).

    I was simply asking Ricky if he expected us to believe that on top of the other BS he posted.

    Brothers again?

    [This message has been edited by mongofire_99 (edited September 04, 2000).]

  15. #15
    Firehouse.com Guest



    Of course Brothers again. I didn't let you go as a Brother because I perceived a disagreement.

    Thanks for clearing up your point. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

    Take care and stay safe,


  16. #16
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest


    You guys shouldn't confuse Gore supporters with the facts.

  17. #17
    Firehouse.com Guest


    If you guys continue making sense, and telling the truth, the liberals are gonna ask us to go home.

    Everyone has a right to their opinion no matter how misguided it is.

    Thank god for America. Vote Bush in 2000.

    Stay Safe out there.

  18. #18
    Firehouse.com Guest


    Notwithstanding all the normal Political rhetoric and falderal associated with a presidential campaign, I tend to look past the chest thumping and self back slapping, and check the congressional records....where at? On the internet of course.

    My gripe with any Democrat is that for 8 years they have been ya-ya-ya about how they are for the middle-class, lower-class, just plain folks. B.S.!

    I am supporting (financially assisting)my retired parents because AL "SNORE" GORE, as President of the Senate, broke the tie in favor of ALLOWING Social Security to be taxed at a much higher rate than before. So...my folks, in their 70's and relying on SS alone, saw their quality of life go down.

    My point, very non-partisan, is please don't rely on anyone to "tell" you how you should vote.

    LEARN, READ, RESEARCH, INVESTIGATE, QUESTION the rhetoric, FIND THE TRUTH, then vote your conscience.

    Y'all stay safe!

  19. #19
    pete fister
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    Read your IAFF mailing that was just mailed out. It explains just what Bush has done to give the shaft to our Brothers/Sisters in Texas.

    Remember vote for Gore on Nov. 7 and if you find that you dont care for your family or your childrens educators...vote for Bush on Nov. 8th (heehee)

  20. #20
    Firehouse.com Guest


    Hey brother Pete,
    I just got through looking through the Bills from the Texas legislature concerning Firefighters. I have yet to find anything where G.W. has given us the shaft. In fact I found several pieces of legislature that he signed that is very good for us(HB 1678, SB 454, SB 1610). You should read Mongofire's post concerning this.

    Second as far as education is concerned G.W. is for allowing individual states the right to determin how to fix their education systems. Big Al wants to have the government shove his plans down all the states throats. Now I am sure that the problems we have here in Memphis are different than the problems you have in your town. I can't concieve how one plan mandated by Washington will be able to adress both. The Bush plan is to give local governments the tools to fix their education systems, and then holds them ACCOUNTABLE! If they fail to improve in three years, he then takes the federal funding and gives it directly to PARENTS to allow them to find good education for their childeren. The Gore plan doesn't do this. Personally I like a man who is willing to hold local governemts accountable, and then give parents power if the local government fails them.

    Now I am a union brother, and I support my union, but on this one I think they made a mistake. Big Al came to them and promised them the sun, the moon, and the stars. Of course they ate it up. In order to protect their investment in him they will tell you what THEY want you to know. You need to do the reasearch yourself to get the FULL truth on what is going on. Right now Al is only telling half truths and outright LIES about G.W.'s Texas record. The whole idea is not to get you to vote for Gore because he is better, but to scare you into not voting for Bush. The truth is that Al's position on the issues don't stand up, so he has to revert to the scare, and hope that people don't take the time to educate themselves on the truth.

    I could go on and on, but I won't. The bottom line is if you disregard the retoric from both sides and look at the cold hard facts you will be blown away, just as I was, by the pure BS that is coming from Al Gore, the man who had to re-invent himself 3 times since August. If he is so good why did he have to change who and what he is 3 times in 3 months, and then what will he turn into if he becomes President?

    Finally it should be noted that the Faternal Order of Police have endorsed George W. Bush for president, and that democrats in the Texas legislature have turned out to support Gov. Bush for the exelent way he has governed the state of Texas!

    Regardless of all that take care and stay safe Brother!

    Larry Boothby
    Snorkel-13 A-shift
    Local 1784

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