Thread: NFPA 1710
02-15-2001, 01:21 AM #26Jolly RogerFirehouse.com Guest
Why is it then, if four is not the magic number, you won't concede 5 or 6? Didn't your CLASS 1 fd run 10 on a truck?
02-15-2001, 01:37 AM #27FREDFirehouse.com Guest
Here is a little more Research on the reponse time issue.
The IAFC at the sent in a proposal that I am unable to find on the 1710 document on the nfpa site.
However, It says that it was approved by the technical committee that an additional 60 seconds be added and seperated from response time. The Language is a bit vauge on the Chiefs site... http://www.ichiefs.org/media/nfpa1710.htm
Either it means you have 5 minutes total from the time the bells hit to arrive on scene or 5 minutes from the time "units acknowledge notification of an emergency until they arrive at the scene." Which means you still have 4 minutes from quarters to arrive on scene but you get 60 seconds to get dressed, on the rig and out the door.
This was a major gripe and was proposed a number of times by others but without the political pull was rejected.
This seems to be a fair amount of time (5 minutes that is). But I haven't been able to find it in its final draft on-line yet. Who knows probably wont see it until May.
Observations from a fireman.
02-15-2001, 11:24 AM #28Dalmatian90Firehouse.com Guest
The extra minute "turnout" time before the 4 minute "response" time would certainly address my point on eliminating sleep time to help make the 4 minute mark!
02-15-2001, 01:46 PM #29BikefireFirehouse.com Guest
Fred, Here's NFPA 1710 in the draft form. I posted this earlier in this thread. Should download for you. http://roproc.nfpa.org/procom/pdfs/1710-p.pdf And if any one else is interested in NFPA 1720. http://roproc.nfpa.org/procom/pdfs/1720-p.pdf
Being from a non-OSHA state. I'm concerned, that this will not help us with our one and two man engine and ladder companies.
Be kind to fire fighters. Please don't let your dogs use fire hydrants.
02-15-2001, 02:41 PM #30FREDFirehouse.com Guest
I apologize I wasn't clear in my posting. I read the 107 page document...however I found that the change that is mentioned on the IAFC web site isn't found on the PDF file.
The dates mentioned on the ICHIEFS site were last minute changes so it might not have been posted to the form.
I'm don't know much about Pen., but being or not being an OSHA state shouldn't have an effect on you.
I'm no expert but affter reading the proposed standard, studies and related documents this is what I have determined.
As I wrote in a previous post just because a state isn't covered under NFPA or OSHA for that matter, doesn't mean that they will not be exposing themselves to liablity...(I cited cases in NY which is not an NFPA state but NYC lost BIG $$$ because the men weren't equipped to the so called "National Standard")
Whether or not your Chief agrees with it should be irrelevant. If the City managers/lawyers ect, are knowledgeable they will see they are opening themselves up to liability. As per the WSJ the city manager in Kansas City realized it.
Is Penn. a NFPA state? I hope 1710 if passes helps you correct the low staffing up there.
Two cents from a fireman.
[This message has been edited by FRED (edited 02-15-2001).]
02-18-2001, 10:57 PM #31SBrooksFirehouse.com Guest
Four minute bells to on scene time, leaves three minutes drive time. Avg speed of 25 mph (used by ISO) gives first due coverage of 1.25 road miles from station. Worst case for second and later units is for a fire next to the first due station. Then second, third, fourth, and fifth due are 2.5 miles away, or 6 driving minutes + 1 turnout = 7 minutes away. Plus these companies are traveling further, usually on more primary roads, and should be travelling faster than 25mph over most of their trip.
So five stations worth of apparatus within 7 minutes of alert is pretty good, especially if you have at least two trucks in those five stations, or all quints.
On a completely gridded street stystem, a 1.25 mile road mile coverage equates to 3.125 square miles (think of a diamond). Most places have diagonal streets, curvy streets, etc. so actual coverage may be more (think of a circle 4.9 square miles ideal).
Most fully staffed fire departments average 2-3 ffs on duty per 10,000 population. To support 4 ffs / station you'd need a population density anywhere from 13,333 / 4.9 = 2721 to 20,000 / 3.125 = 6400 people per square miles, depending on the layout of your roads and your communitiy's willingness to retain firefighters.
To get a 4 man truck company in 2 of 5 stations you'd need density running from 3809 to 8960 people per square mile.
This is supposed to happen on 90% of calls...so even with perfect geographical coverage and never being out of service, a company would have to be availiable for service 90% of the time, or be on runs less than 2.4 hours average per day. If the average of fire calls takes 20-30 minutes that comes to a maximum of 1752 to 2628 runs a year.
This standard is likely to be easily met in in high density areas (4000 people per square miles) with few calls...with mosts departments using EMS to justify their presence, not many places with that density are going to run fewer than 1728 runs a year.
Another type of place that would work is one that has a larger area per firehouse, but a very concentrated population near their stations.
Prince George's County MD, where i live, has roughly 800,000 people over 488 sq miles, or a density of 1639 people per sq mile, though the density inside the beltway is significantly higher than that, and outside the beltway there are local population centers. There are 44 fire stations in the county so the average size is 11 square miles, though again, the stations are closer together inside the beltway. From my firehouse to the next it is 3/4 of a mile one way and 1 1/4 the other.
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