1. #26
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Nozzlehog,

    Here is the hypocrisy in your whole argument.

    If Monday you are on shift at your career FD... "a volunteer officer would have no authority. He could literally be told to go and "pound sand".

    While Tuesday you are running a call with your volly FD....."No, I don't freelance at all at my volly FD. I can follow as well as lead."

    My point is and was....if on Monday they have no authority over you while you are on the job...how can you allow them to command you on Tuesday? When you take off the uniform do they magically transform into good officers? If not why follow them on Tuesday? That is the hypocrisy in your argument.

    So let me make this clear for you...I did not say you were a hypocrite for volunteering, I said you were a hypocrite for saying you won't listen to a volunteer officer's orders while in your career uniform and operating under their command(I have to assume that if your officer's thought they weren't capable they wouldn't assign them tasks at your incidents), but you listen to them at your volly FD on your days off.

    If your department neither gives nor receives mutual aid...good for you. I work next to a large city that charges if you call them for mutual aid. I certainly hope it pays off when and if they need help.

    I don't think you are a union fanatic. If you were you wouldn't volunteer at all. I think you are misquided and using contradicting and illogical arguments. There is a difference.

    FyredUp

  2. #27
    NozzleHog
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FyredUp,

    Here is the flaw in your argument.

    These are two entirely different situations, like apples and oranges. In your myopic, inflexible world, you can't seem to separate the two or recognize the difference.

    When at work, one works within the accepted set of rules established there.

    I joined the volunteer organization of my own free will, nobody made me join and I don't need it to pay the bills. If things became totally screwed up and I could do nothing about it, I could simply resign and walk away. My experience has been that leadership in volunteer organizations tends to be more inclusive, less autocratic, and recognizes that some individuals without formal rank may be a valuable resource. Officers know they are elected, sometimes over individuals with more training and experience than themselves. A good officer will use this to his advantage, there are such things as informal leaders in any organization. To be a member, one has to work within the rules here too. That doesn't necessarily mean I would want these same people giving orders where I work.

    According to your illogical point of view, I should expect an officer in my volly dept to be as well trained, experienced, and fully capable as one in my career department. Or perhaps you prefer the other option, to take the position that this small town volunteer department does not meet my professional standards so I will not belong to that organization?

    My arguments only seem contradictory to you because you are narrow minded and unable to think outside the box. In any case, you don't have to understand it or like it, this is just the way it is.

  3. #28
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    NozzleHog,

    I am sorry that your volly FD has no standards for who can and can't be an officer. Elections of all of the officers do tend to play into party politics and the good old boy network.

    We mentor new officers and potential officers to help guide them. We also have a very liberal policy about going to outside training programs.

    Just let's agree to disagree on this one.

    Take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp

  4. #29
    JBingo18
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hot Damn(non union member) Let me ask you a question, are you really a career firefighter or do you just tell people you are? Please, and then to trash the IAFF, come on, wake up pal, lets get it together.

    Now my opinion which is just what i said, my opinion, is:

    1st)I take orders from my Captain, who takes them from someone else whoever that may be.

    2nd)If there was a day were my department responded to a mutual aid fire in a city where the officer in charge was a volunteer;
    and I was the captain being directed by a volunteer chief who gave my company an order.

    If i agreed with the IC, hey, no problem...
    Although, if I thought the order was not a good idea I would probally tell the IC to take his order and stick it up his *****. Very simple right? but I am not captain nor do I plan to be.
    So to sum this up, Nozzlehog I got your back, kid.
    I will never have to deal with it.
    So in closing let me leave you fellow career(union) firefighters with this:
    **Volunteer firefighters, with harsh feelings towards career firefighters, are likely disgruntled because they never were able to cut it, or failed miserably trying to get on the job somewhere.**
    however; goodnight & godbless.

    ------------------
    NJ/FMBA is good.
    Go NY Yankees!!!!

  5. #30
    tkrzm
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    On Mutual Aid I can accept the leadership of the town I'm responding in too (career/volunteer). If a Capt or Chief gives a bad order then common sense is do not follow the orders. Combo Departments is the problem. Career and Volunteer Don't Mix. Yes a few exceptions but generally No! I work in a combo dept which is a politically motivated, volunteer controlled dept. I'm not going into details but I rate my dept the worst I have ever seen (career or volunteer). Why? Volunteer Chief's, no training, no idea of the job, elected (I mean selected) by the political vol members so the Chief's remain their puppets for their 3years, making life safety decisions which put ff's and taxpayers at risk. Hiding the facts that the volunteer ff's have diminished by fudging reports and state quota reports and use these reports against us with the politicians. How? Combo depts bring out the fears in volunteers. "Fully Paid is around the corner etc". This mentality fuels unbelievable ire and resentment. The hardest job in the fire service today is being a career ff who is trying to be professional, that has to work in a volunteer controlled dept who hate your existence and try to slap you down at every turn. Brotherhood???? Haha. If a volunteer dept must become combo, then it must be career controlled. If not it will only resemble a fire dept which will become a fire safety nightmare, a political powerplay and a joke of the service like my dept.

    [This message has been edited by tkrzm (edited 04-11-2001).]

  6. #31
    engineer19
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    I think somewhere somebody forgot what the question was!

    I am a career engineer/firefighter in a combination dept. as well as a vol. lieutenant in a dept. that only has a paid chief. In my career dept., we have a career chief, capt' and lt's, we also have vol. capt's and lt's. Our SOP's state that the first arriving officer will establish command. Regardless of pd/vol status, this officer will remain IC unless it is assumed by a higher ranking officer. Depending on the incident, this may, or may not happen. Our career people, do take orders from volunteer officers quite often. Nobody has a problem with this....all of our officers are well trained.

    As far as my volunteer lt's position, the same thing applies. If I am IC and we receive mutual aid from a career dept. I am still going to be IC unless I turn it over to a higher ranking officer. I guess maybe we are fortunate, most of the departments on our area seem to work well together.

    Let's not forget that regardless of career or volunteer status, most of us are here because we love what we do. If you think this is just a job, maybe you need to re-evaluate your career choice.

  7. #32
    RWK
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Back to the question.....

    We see volunteer and career people primarily in mutual aid or multi-agency calls. ICS is used and does not recognize people's status vis-a-vis a paycheck. Orders are passed down via the approp. chain of command and according to roles/responsibility. Any unsafe order is an unsafe order - doesn't matter where it comes from and anyone (regardless of rank, status) that sees something unsafe has a duty to point it out - period.

    Jurisdictional issues are all spelled out and someone that can't function in the recognized framework can be removed (by law enforcement if necessary per the IC). It is interesting to note that we work closely with (depending on situation - command and receive commands from) agencies including, USFS, local fire departments (paid and vollie), sheriff (search & rescue responsibility in wilderness areas), SAR units, National Parks, other federal agencies (BLM, FBI), military, etc.

    If there is an incident and it is determined that an order from a duly authorized officer was disobeyed and an incident occured - there is no question of responsibility.

    In light of something I read I wanted to clarify - the officers I am talking about are NOT selected/elected, but are in their position because of TRAINING, EXPERIENCE and other important OPERATIONAL factors. Governance issues are handled entirely separately. The governance role does not extend into operations/incidents.

    [This message has been edited by RWK (edited 04-19-2001).]

  8. #33
    efd1000
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I work for a combo dept of 68 career and "maybe" 20 vols. We (career) DO NOT take orders from any of our volly officers for the main reason that they are untrained but "selected". Career officers upon promotion are trained by the FDNY for one month. Volly officers get a white helmet.
    Who would you trust?? Even responding Mutual Aid officers from the surrounding cities ask "paid or volly". Its all a matter of training and trust. Our vollys get practically none (if they show up) and the career force trains every work day (24/72).

    And I'm NOT EXAGERATING!!!!!!!



    [This message has been edited by efd1000 (edited 06-15-2001).]

  9. #34
    570eck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    EFD you've got yourself a sad situation. What motivates these vol.s to even come with no training. Better yet where does your chief get off allowing these people on a fireground. Lives are at stake, don't these people want to better themselves. While in your dept. this might be the case, this is not the rule across the board. For the safety of all involved and for liablity reasons institute some type of training program. OR YOU COULD JUST BE EXAGERATING.

  10. #35
    engineer19
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I agree....It does sound like a sad situation for EFD....Several years ago I volunteered for a dept. that was about the same way. Officer's were elected each year by the membership and the hopefuls would pal up to influential people. This resulted it people with minimal training becoming officers.
    Now, in the combo dept. I work for, volunteers interested in officer's positions must submit a letter of interest to the chief. They are then given a written exam before a selection is made. They are also required to attend additional training in addition to firefighter training.

    The dept where I am a vol. lieutenant, we are elected by the menbership. However, we must meet certain levels of training before we can run for an office. We are also reqiured to attend additional training for officers.

    Both systems seem to work well, and both result in well trained officers.

    Just my 2 cents
    STAY SAFE

  11. #36
    engineer19
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I agree....It does sound like a sad situation for EFD....Several years ago I volunteered for a dept. that was about the same way. Officer's were elected each year by the membership and the hopefuls would pal up to influential people. This resulted it people with minimal training becoming officers.
    Now, in the combo dept. I work for, volunteers interested in officer's positions must submit a letter of interest to the chief. They are then given a written exam before a selection is made. They are also required to attend additional training in addition to firefighter training.

    The dept where I am a vol. lieutenant, we are elected by the menbership. However, we must meet certain levels of training before we can run for an office. We are also reqiured to attend additional training for officers.

    Both systems seem to work well, and both result in well trained officers.

    Just my 2 cents
    STAY SAFE

  12. #37
    KeithA8
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    LISTEN UP!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Nozzlehog
    Fyred Up
    hot DAMN

    You guys are all SCABS!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I don't care if there isn't a carreer dept. for 100 miles. If you break a leg at your volly fire - Does your volly town pay your paid city for your sick time? NO! Who replaces you while you're gone? Overtime guys? Who pays that bill? Not your volly town! If you work 30 years at both jobs and you retire because of job related heart disease who pays your retirement benifets? Not your volly town! Do you feel hipicritical fighting city hall for a raise and better health insurance when you are willing to do the job for nothing? What would happen if you left your volly dept.? Would the town burn down? I don't think so. Does the whole towns safety hinge on your abbillities alone? Maybe? What if you're at your paid job? Do you leave to go to your volly town - because without you their helpless? Right? I don't think so. Have some loyalty to your employer - who puts food on your table and a roof over your head - and only have one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. Not two! Get it? Have a nice day.

    ------------------
    IAFF member, Love this job! Hate SCABS!

  13. #38
    hot DAMN
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Smile

    oh go to your union meeting and leave us firemen alone

  14. #39
    Nate Marshall
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Ive often responded to volunter districts as the on duty BC and when I do I am in their district and follow their IC' sorders. If I disagree with something I will respectfully tell them.

    Being on an IMT I often respond as the first member of the command and general staff to the ICP and most if not all cases its a volunteer or small district. Until the delegation of authority is signed I am under their command not my IC's or Deputy IC's.

    I always love hearing the scab talk. Sorry nozzlehogg maybe you need to retire since you obviously cant adapt to sme communities not being able to afford career guys.

  15. #40
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    KEITH a8,

    What I choose to do on my off days, as long as it is not illegal, is no business of my employer.

    As far as the sick time issue goes, is the situation any different than any of the other guys on the job that "scab" (your word, not mine) at any other part time job? You know, such UNION jobs as roofing, carpentry, tile laying, plumbing, electrical work, truck driving, and so on and so on. If the injury problem is so severe where you work perhaps the rules should be changed to allow no outside part-time employment. What are the odds of that happening? Slightly less than ZERO!!

    As far as the workers comp issue, if I am hurt at my volly FD workers comp pays at the rate of the closest full time fire department. Of course I would be using sick time from the career FD, but so would you if you were roofing and fell off the roof and broke your leg. So in my opinion that whole argument doesn't wash.

    Do you engage in any hazardous sport type activities off duty? Perhaps skiing, or snowmobiling, or riding an ATV, or parachuting, or rock climbing, or hunting? How would you feel if your employer tried to make you stop because if you got injured you would have to use sick time to heal. I know this argument isn't apples to apples, but it does go into controlling what you do off the job.

    Now on to your "I don't care if there isn't a paid department within 100 miles you are still a scab", how am I a scab if there is no job to take? The fire department budget in the town I volly in is $39,000. How many paid guys can we hire? 1/4 of a guy maybe if we wanted to still pay the rest of the bills. In this entire county there are I believe 6 paid career fire fighters. They are not on my fire department. So please tell me how I am a scab?

    When and if this department grows to the point that we have full time staff I will step down, until then, I will serve my community as a volunteer.

    FyredUp

  16. #41
    KeithA8
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    FyredUp:

    Did you read what I wrote? You're right it's not apples to apples. Is the carpenter getting paid? Yes. Is the carpenter working in a union shop? No. Is carpentry a conflict of interest to firefighting? No. If the carpenter is on a union job then yes he is a scab. But if not then he isn't.

    Not hazardous? Maybe you should expand your mind and read a little. Firefighting is statisticly in the top ten most hazardous jobs in the world year after year. Workers compensation lists it as the MOST hazardous.

    I have an idea - go to city hall and ask your mayor if he/she minds that you do your job for nothing in your home town. And ask him/her if it's ok for you to miss time and cost your city 10's of thousands of dollars in overtime pay to cover your position when you're out healing an injury from your volly town. It's not the same apple as roofing or snowmobiling. And if your home town dept. can't survive without you as a member then maybe it's time to hire proffesional firefighters. And I allready explained why you're a scab. Obviously you didn't get it.

    ------------------
    IAFF member, Love this job! Hate SCABS!

  17. #42
    tkrzm
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    With many state pension systems adding heart and lung bills to cover us career firefighters, I think the question of adding to this risk by volunteering in a different dept then expecting the career dept to cover all related costs and the retirement system to fork out a disability or death benifit will become a major factor in the future. At my dept we must get permission to work a second job. Your paperwork is reviewed and if it conflicts with work they can deny you. Only a few fell into this area, but it is true!!! Being a volly for another dept is a question of family. I choose not to place myself at greater risk then I already assume as a career firefighter. But when I help friends replace a toilet or fix a shingle on a roof I'm not crossing a union job, NEVER HAVE NEVER WILL. I have asked this before, give me an example of a union firefighter working a different union job as a scab??? Nobody can!!! I'm not against vollying on your time off, its a family decision. But don't enter a combo or paid dept on mutual aid then you are really scabbing!

  18. #43
    SAY_WHAT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    KeithA8

    Wow Keith you seem to be a little angry. I think what the real problem might be is this, you were probably once married and your wife ran off with a volunteer and now since you can't function with out your medication you have to find a way to vent.

    Then when you go to work you have to deal with volunteers who enjoy helping people and it just eats you up that those people give to their communities and don't get paid. I understand that you probably don't understand that being a firefighter comes from the heart, it's not something that disappears as soon as your relieved from duty.

  19. #44
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Keith a8,

    I'm going to type slower this time so maybe you can get it.

    First show me where I said firefighting wasn't hazardous. You can't because I didn't say it.

    Secondly, any firefighter that works in the trades that have UNION members is by definition a scab, if they are not a UNION member of that trade. Being a scab has nothing to do with whether it affects only your particular job. SO...now that that is settled let's move on to the next point.

    If you are injured in any activity off the job, whether being a volly, or a scab at any other trade, or playing recreational sports, or whatever, you will use sick time from the job to allow you to heal. Perhaps you are advocating that sick time only cover illnesses and not injuries off duty. HEY!! I've got an idea, why don't you bring that up at the next UNION meeting. Hopefully you won't get injured and have to use sick time.

    Now on to the greater issue, I never said my volly department would fold without me. You said that. I am no more or less important than any other member of that department. I do it for 2 reasons, personal satisfaction and service to the community where I live.

    Your hostility over this issue is wasted.

    FyredUp

  20. #45
    CanMan24
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    Keith a8,

    Call us want you want if it makes you feel better. Maybe you should take your medication a little more regulary, I am sure your CAREER position or City Hall will pay for that!!! I am both Career and Volunteer. I have been in the fire service for 12 years and currently work in a combination department. I have no problem taking orders, even if it is from a "vollie" officer. It is called CHAIN OF COMMAND! Would you jeoparidize the safety of a fellow firefighter by disobeying a direct order for the simple fact the Officer was a volunteer? I would hope NOT!! As far as your "HATE SCABS" phylosophy. I think it is a pitiful out-look. Have you EVER been a volunteer? If so, it is a shame that you have forgotten where you came from just for the simple fact that you have the IAFF letters behind your name and rank. I love what I do whether it be for a pay check or for free. I love the satisfaction of making a difference in someones life, and if you have a problem with me or the others scabbing, well SO FREAKIN' BE IT!!! I think you need to re-evaluate your pitiful life as a fireman. From your comments, it seems that you are out for only one thing.....YOURSELF, and I feel really sorry for you. Grow-up and pull that weed out of your ***!!

    To all of the other brothers in here, congrats and keep up the good work of being both a career and volunteer man/woman. We know we make a difference and that is all that matters. NEVER FORGET OUR ROOTS!! Enough said!!

    Pennsylvania FF/EMT 24

  21. #46
    NozzleHog
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Keith A8:
    You are entitled to your opinion and I respect your point of view. I consider myself a loyal union member too, and to be honest, I knew that some more extreme members would consider me a "scab" when I started this.
    Again, I can only say that I don't personally have a problem with it because:
    1. There are no career departments whatsoever out here in the sticks. I know I will never interfere with a fellow professional firefighter's job.
    2. It is not in violation of IAFF by laws for that reason (not a "rival organization").
    3. My help is needed.
    4. I love the job and agree with SAY_WHAT's statement, "being a firefighter comes from the heart, it's not something that disappears as soon as your relieved from duty."
    I don't relish the idea of getting hurt at either dept. but as far as loyalty to my paid dept. goes, they generally screw over far more people than screw them, including members injured on the job. They have this down to an art form so I wouldn't worry too much about them. I have almost a year in accumulated vacation and sick leave, I earned it and it's mine to use regardless of the circumstances. When I'm not at work another fireman gets paid overtime, most of the brothers like that. Sorry, my loyalty is to my two families - the one at home and the one at the firehouse.
    I live in a town of about 600 people, my volly department responds to less than 200 calls per year, do you really think we can afford or justify having a paid department?

    tkrzm:
    I agree that presumptive heart-lung bills complicate the situation and I have to admit, I didn't give that a lot of thought. I have never heard of it being an issue but it could easily become one. Guess it goes along with the possibility of being injured, something you just hope doesn't happen. You are absolutely right with what you say about not entering a combination dept. or a paid department on mutual aid. Yes, that would really be scabbing. I would be totally opposed to that, never have done it and never will.

    Nate:
    As usual, your response is stupid. On the other hand, at least you are consistent. It would be easy to continue to belittle and ostracize you but it seems everyone else on these forums is doing a fine job of that already. Sorry, you are not worthy of a more considered reply.

    [This message has been edited by NozzleHog (edited 05-16-2001).]

  22. #47
    CFD14
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I thank God I live and volunteer where I do. A lot of your places just seem messed up. We have career/paid Chief, Asst. Chief, Svc/Safety Officer, Lts and Volunteer Capts. Everybody works together, takes orders, gives orders and obeys orders. We rarely do mutual aid and when we do it is to an all volunteer dept. Those depts don't care what the pay status is, they just want help on something they can't handle. If they want a certain job done and ask us to take care of it, its done. (unless we deem it unsafe or unnecessary) Professional people/firefighters don't tell others to "go pound sand" That is very unprofessional.

    Now I have a two part question. We volunteers help out our dept. (non-union dept.) and cover a relief shift, holiday or vacation day once in a while. We get paid the starting wage of a FF1 for a 24 hr shift. Do any of you consider that to be a "scab" and why?

  23. #48
    Oak Grove LT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Look at the topic. Simple...get it? An officer is in command until relieved by another officer of higher rank. On the fireground I don't have time to ask a guy for his i.d. or if he's volunteer or paid! I look to see if he's of higher rank and then go from there. If he issues an order I think could cause harm to myself or to someone else then I will RESPECTFULLY tell him, offer an alternative or if ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY contact the IC.Different areas use the chain of command differently. In some areas a paid ff may never be placed in a situation where he is under a volunteer officer. Thats fine for his area but what happens when that paid guy goes mutual aid out of his area? I can pretty much guarantee that if he disobeyed a direct order from a volunteer officer in that volunteer officers area one of two things would happen...the job will get done anyway and the paid guy looks like an idiot or he could be legally removed from the area. Both are a losing situation since I thought the idea was to save lives and protect property.

  24. #49
    CFD14
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Oak Grove, very well stated.

  25. #50
    tkrzm
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    CFD14: This is a perfect question to ask and a big problem with combo depts. You are a scab if: the city is using you as cheap labor and not paying OT to the fulltime members, or if this practice is allowing the city to not properly staff the department and not hire additional firefighters (maybe yourself) to cover the shortages. You are not a scab if: All fulltime firefighters turndown OT and you as a qualified replacement are "hired" by a fair process, or if the dept uses you "temps" as a step towards being hired fulltime, or if the fulltime members don't have a problem with it why should I???
    Question: What if the city started to use you more and more. With the career ff's haveing less and less OT or less staff etc. Would you stop?? Would you protest?? Would you stop Volunteering until it was reversed?? What would or could you do!!!

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