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  1. #21
    Smoke286
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I can be serious about not following voluteer orders, in fact, I know that in our Dept such an occaision would not arrive. Whenever our Dept shows up on the scene control is gladly relinquished to us, In fact,for liability reasons the city would have it no other way. Irregardless our union would not stand for it.


  2. #22
    570eck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Some people are in it because they like the job, some for the money, some for "glory", some for the thrill, and some for the rush. But no matter what we are in it for we are all in it, and we are all in it together. Now, I'm no better than the rest because I didn't even think this is a topic worth discussing. I run both, there are knuckleheads on both and there are damn good people on both. Don't let an ego or paycheck or " I do it for free" attittude trick you into beleiving that you have all the answers. The truth comes with knowledge, learning and experience. I would hope this would be a dead issue but it never will be. Learn where to put your trust, learn where to put your heart and learn where to put your ***, because when it is all said and done, it is your *** on the line.

  3. #23
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Nozzlehog,

    First, I did not say all volly officers are better trained than all paid officers. What I said was I can show you examples of higher trained volly officers.

    Secondly, if you are in the town of a volly FD on a mutual aid call you better listen to the volly officers. No matter what you think of them...It is still their town and their fire and their responsibility.

    Of course the exception would be not to follow an order that is either stupid or more dangerous than it has to be. But hopefully your loyalty to your paid officers would allow you to question them in those circumstances too.

    I guarantee you that if you came into the town of my volly FD and assumed you didn't have to listen to our IC you wouldn't be there long.

    I understand your comment of being under the control of your company officer. Rarely does a FF get orders directly from the IC on the fireground. So then is your point that your company officer would refuse to obey the order of a higher ranking volly officer?

    By the way if volly officers are not qualified to command you...do you free lance exclusively at the volly FD you are a member at? Or does your hypocrisy only hold up when you have on the Union uniform? Guys like you just seem to propogate the paid vs volly debate by your illogical comments.

    Just to stay clear on the IAFF issue I am a union meber at my career FD, my volly FD is 4 counties away from my career job. It is totally volly, with no nearby full time FD. So there is no issue with taking jobs from another FF.

    FyredUp

  4. #24
    macsen
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Smile

    Originally posted by hot DAMN:
    Nozzlehog:

    The fact that you volunteer at all is by IAFF bylaws just as illegal as volunteering at an IAFF organized department
    FWIW, that's not quite accurate. The IAFF by-laws only prohibit membership in competing organizations -- paid, volunteer, or otherwise. Not an unreasonable clause, IMHO.

    Mac


    ------------------
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    8 years fire captain
    20 years fire service
    BS Fire Science
    FO-II,FSI-II,SO,HMT,PSE
    Past Volunteer

  5. #25
    NozzleHog
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Fyred Up:
    Maybe you need to be a little less fyred up and a little more observant:

    FU: "First, I did not say all volly officers are better trained than all paid officers. What I said was I can show you examples of higher trained volly officers"...

    Wrong, check back...you said, QUOTE: "I guarantee you I can find more volly officers in my area that have more education and training than career officers. Some have more actual fire call time too." Nice try.
    Again, if the full-time "professional" fire officers in Wisconsin whose JOB it is to get "fire call time" and train not only themselves but their firefighters lag behind volunteers who do it as a sideline in addition to working their full time jobs, shame on the career officers. That does not sound very professional to me. They should be held to a higher standard, and for that I blame their departments.

    FU: "Secondly, if you are in the town of a volly FD on a mutual aid call you better listen to the volly officers. No matter what you think of them...It is still their town and their fire and their responsibility. I guarantee you that if you came into the town of my volly FD and assumed you didn't have to listen to our IC you wouldn't be there long"...

    You assume that all career departments run mutual aid and/or receive mutual aid. Many do not for precisely that reason. They do not wish to put the people they give a paycheck to in a position where they would be subordinate to a volunteer. On my last shift at work we had eighteen runs, three of which were working fires. You really think I care about coming to put out fires in your town?
    I happen to think very highly of the members of my volunteer department. Their hearts are 100% in what they do, they do it for the right reasons and it's beautiful to see the way the community is behind us. However, the way we operate is a world apart from my career department. Because of having few actual fires and relatively long response times that often preclude making an aggressive interior attack, the experience just isn't there. Like it or not, many volunteer companies have officers with only a minimum of formal training and even less experience.

    FU: ...do you free lance exclusively at the volly FD you are a member at?

    No, I don't freelance at all at my volly FD. I can follow as well as lead. If asked, I offer suggestions. I also avoid coming across as a know it all, and decline to be an officer there. I get plenty of this stuff at work and the other members gain more from being officers than I ever could.

    FU: ...Or does your hypocrisy only hold up when you have on the Union uniform?

    Hypocrisy? Why, because I volunteer? I do that for only one reason, because I can not morally or ethically stand by and watch my neighbor's house burn to the ground. I'd otherwise be quite content to roll back over and go to sleep when the siren blows in the middle of the night, but I live in this town and don't think I could hold my head up walking down the street if I did that. Oh, and I don't wear a "Union" uniform. I wear the uniform of my department, proudly. It would no doubt help your argument to portray me as a union fanatic but...you're wrong again.

  6. #26
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Nozzlehog,

    Here is the hypocrisy in your whole argument.

    If Monday you are on shift at your career FD... "a volunteer officer would have no authority. He could literally be told to go and "pound sand".

    While Tuesday you are running a call with your volly FD....."No, I don't freelance at all at my volly FD. I can follow as well as lead."

    My point is and was....if on Monday they have no authority over you while you are on the job...how can you allow them to command you on Tuesday? When you take off the uniform do they magically transform into good officers? If not why follow them on Tuesday? That is the hypocrisy in your argument.

    So let me make this clear for you...I did not say you were a hypocrite for volunteering, I said you were a hypocrite for saying you won't listen to a volunteer officer's orders while in your career uniform and operating under their command(I have to assume that if your officer's thought they weren't capable they wouldn't assign them tasks at your incidents), but you listen to them at your volly FD on your days off.

    If your department neither gives nor receives mutual aid...good for you. I work next to a large city that charges if you call them for mutual aid. I certainly hope it pays off when and if they need help.

    I don't think you are a union fanatic. If you were you wouldn't volunteer at all. I think you are misquided and using contradicting and illogical arguments. There is a difference.

    FyredUp

  7. #27
    NozzleHog
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FyredUp,

    Here is the flaw in your argument.

    These are two entirely different situations, like apples and oranges. In your myopic, inflexible world, you can't seem to separate the two or recognize the difference.

    When at work, one works within the accepted set of rules established there.

    I joined the volunteer organization of my own free will, nobody made me join and I don't need it to pay the bills. If things became totally screwed up and I could do nothing about it, I could simply resign and walk away. My experience has been that leadership in volunteer organizations tends to be more inclusive, less autocratic, and recognizes that some individuals without formal rank may be a valuable resource. Officers know they are elected, sometimes over individuals with more training and experience than themselves. A good officer will use this to his advantage, there are such things as informal leaders in any organization. To be a member, one has to work within the rules here too. That doesn't necessarily mean I would want these same people giving orders where I work.

    According to your illogical point of view, I should expect an officer in my volly dept to be as well trained, experienced, and fully capable as one in my career department. Or perhaps you prefer the other option, to take the position that this small town volunteer department does not meet my professional standards so I will not belong to that organization?

    My arguments only seem contradictory to you because you are narrow minded and unable to think outside the box. In any case, you don't have to understand it or like it, this is just the way it is.

  8. #28
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    NozzleHog,

    I am sorry that your volly FD has no standards for who can and can't be an officer. Elections of all of the officers do tend to play into party politics and the good old boy network.

    We mentor new officers and potential officers to help guide them. We also have a very liberal policy about going to outside training programs.

    Just let's agree to disagree on this one.

    Take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp

  9. #29
    JBingo18
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hot Damn(non union member) Let me ask you a question, are you really a career firefighter or do you just tell people you are? Please, and then to trash the IAFF, come on, wake up pal, lets get it together.

    Now my opinion which is just what i said, my opinion, is:

    1st)I take orders from my Captain, who takes them from someone else whoever that may be.

    2nd)If there was a day were my department responded to a mutual aid fire in a city where the officer in charge was a volunteer;
    and I was the captain being directed by a volunteer chief who gave my company an order.

    If i agreed with the IC, hey, no problem...
    Although, if I thought the order was not a good idea I would probally tell the IC to take his order and stick it up his *****. Very simple right? but I am not captain nor do I plan to be.
    So to sum this up, Nozzlehog I got your back, kid.
    I will never have to deal with it.
    So in closing let me leave you fellow career(union) firefighters with this:
    **Volunteer firefighters, with harsh feelings towards career firefighters, are likely disgruntled because they never were able to cut it, or failed miserably trying to get on the job somewhere.**
    however; goodnight & godbless.

    ------------------
    NJ/FMBA is good.
    Go NY Yankees!!!!

  10. #30
    tkrzm
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    On Mutual Aid I can accept the leadership of the town I'm responding in too (career/volunteer). If a Capt or Chief gives a bad order then common sense is do not follow the orders. Combo Departments is the problem. Career and Volunteer Don't Mix. Yes a few exceptions but generally No! I work in a combo dept which is a politically motivated, volunteer controlled dept. I'm not going into details but I rate my dept the worst I have ever seen (career or volunteer). Why? Volunteer Chief's, no training, no idea of the job, elected (I mean selected) by the political vol members so the Chief's remain their puppets for their 3years, making life safety decisions which put ff's and taxpayers at risk. Hiding the facts that the volunteer ff's have diminished by fudging reports and state quota reports and use these reports against us with the politicians. How? Combo depts bring out the fears in volunteers. "Fully Paid is around the corner etc". This mentality fuels unbelievable ire and resentment. The hardest job in the fire service today is being a career ff who is trying to be professional, that has to work in a volunteer controlled dept who hate your existence and try to slap you down at every turn. Brotherhood???? Haha. If a volunteer dept must become combo, then it must be career controlled. If not it will only resemble a fire dept which will become a fire safety nightmare, a political powerplay and a joke of the service like my dept.

    [This message has been edited by tkrzm (edited 04-11-2001).]

  11. #31
    engineer19
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    I think somewhere somebody forgot what the question was!

    I am a career engineer/firefighter in a combination dept. as well as a vol. lieutenant in a dept. that only has a paid chief. In my career dept., we have a career chief, capt' and lt's, we also have vol. capt's and lt's. Our SOP's state that the first arriving officer will establish command. Regardless of pd/vol status, this officer will remain IC unless it is assumed by a higher ranking officer. Depending on the incident, this may, or may not happen. Our career people, do take orders from volunteer officers quite often. Nobody has a problem with this....all of our officers are well trained.

    As far as my volunteer lt's position, the same thing applies. If I am IC and we receive mutual aid from a career dept. I am still going to be IC unless I turn it over to a higher ranking officer. I guess maybe we are fortunate, most of the departments on our area seem to work well together.

    Let's not forget that regardless of career or volunteer status, most of us are here because we love what we do. If you think this is just a job, maybe you need to re-evaluate your career choice.

  12. #32
    RWK
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Back to the question.....

    We see volunteer and career people primarily in mutual aid or multi-agency calls. ICS is used and does not recognize people's status vis-a-vis a paycheck. Orders are passed down via the approp. chain of command and according to roles/responsibility. Any unsafe order is an unsafe order - doesn't matter where it comes from and anyone (regardless of rank, status) that sees something unsafe has a duty to point it out - period.

    Jurisdictional issues are all spelled out and someone that can't function in the recognized framework can be removed (by law enforcement if necessary per the IC). It is interesting to note that we work closely with (depending on situation - command and receive commands from) agencies including, USFS, local fire departments (paid and vollie), sheriff (search & rescue responsibility in wilderness areas), SAR units, National Parks, other federal agencies (BLM, FBI), military, etc.

    If there is an incident and it is determined that an order from a duly authorized officer was disobeyed and an incident occured - there is no question of responsibility.

    In light of something I read I wanted to clarify - the officers I am talking about are NOT selected/elected, but are in their position because of TRAINING, EXPERIENCE and other important OPERATIONAL factors. Governance issues are handled entirely separately. The governance role does not extend into operations/incidents.

    [This message has been edited by RWK (edited 04-19-2001).]

  13. #33
    efd1000
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I work for a combo dept of 68 career and "maybe" 20 vols. We (career) DO NOT take orders from any of our volly officers for the main reason that they are untrained but "selected". Career officers upon promotion are trained by the FDNY for one month. Volly officers get a white helmet.
    Who would you trust?? Even responding Mutual Aid officers from the surrounding cities ask "paid or volly". Its all a matter of training and trust. Our vollys get practically none (if they show up) and the career force trains every work day (24/72).

    And I'm NOT EXAGERATING!!!!!!!



    [This message has been edited by efd1000 (edited 06-15-2001).]

  14. #34
    570eck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    EFD you've got yourself a sad situation. What motivates these vol.s to even come with no training. Better yet where does your chief get off allowing these people on a fireground. Lives are at stake, don't these people want to better themselves. While in your dept. this might be the case, this is not the rule across the board. For the safety of all involved and for liablity reasons institute some type of training program. OR YOU COULD JUST BE EXAGERATING.

  15. #35
    engineer19
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I agree....It does sound like a sad situation for EFD....Several years ago I volunteered for a dept. that was about the same way. Officer's were elected each year by the membership and the hopefuls would pal up to influential people. This resulted it people with minimal training becoming officers.
    Now, in the combo dept. I work for, volunteers interested in officer's positions must submit a letter of interest to the chief. They are then given a written exam before a selection is made. They are also required to attend additional training in addition to firefighter training.

    The dept where I am a vol. lieutenant, we are elected by the menbership. However, we must meet certain levels of training before we can run for an office. We are also reqiured to attend additional training for officers.

    Both systems seem to work well, and both result in well trained officers.

    Just my 2 cents
    STAY SAFE

  16. #36
    engineer19
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I agree....It does sound like a sad situation for EFD....Several years ago I volunteered for a dept. that was about the same way. Officer's were elected each year by the membership and the hopefuls would pal up to influential people. This resulted it people with minimal training becoming officers.
    Now, in the combo dept. I work for, volunteers interested in officer's positions must submit a letter of interest to the chief. They are then given a written exam before a selection is made. They are also required to attend additional training in addition to firefighter training.

    The dept where I am a vol. lieutenant, we are elected by the menbership. However, we must meet certain levels of training before we can run for an office. We are also reqiured to attend additional training for officers.

    Both systems seem to work well, and both result in well trained officers.

    Just my 2 cents
    STAY SAFE

  17. #37
    KeithA8
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    LISTEN UP!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Nozzlehog
    Fyred Up
    hot DAMN

    You guys are all SCABS!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I don't care if there isn't a carreer dept. for 100 miles. If you break a leg at your volly fire - Does your volly town pay your paid city for your sick time? NO! Who replaces you while you're gone? Overtime guys? Who pays that bill? Not your volly town! If you work 30 years at both jobs and you retire because of job related heart disease who pays your retirement benifets? Not your volly town! Do you feel hipicritical fighting city hall for a raise and better health insurance when you are willing to do the job for nothing? What would happen if you left your volly dept.? Would the town burn down? I don't think so. Does the whole towns safety hinge on your abbillities alone? Maybe? What if you're at your paid job? Do you leave to go to your volly town - because without you their helpless? Right? I don't think so. Have some loyalty to your employer - who puts food on your table and a roof over your head - and only have one of the most dangerous jobs in the world. Not two! Get it? Have a nice day.

    ------------------
    IAFF member, Love this job! Hate SCABS!

  18. #38
    hot DAMN
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Smile

    oh go to your union meeting and leave us firemen alone

  19. #39
    Nate Marshall
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Ive often responded to volunter districts as the on duty BC and when I do I am in their district and follow their IC' sorders. If I disagree with something I will respectfully tell them.

    Being on an IMT I often respond as the first member of the command and general staff to the ICP and most if not all cases its a volunteer or small district. Until the delegation of authority is signed I am under their command not my IC's or Deputy IC's.

    I always love hearing the scab talk. Sorry nozzlehogg maybe you need to retire since you obviously cant adapt to sme communities not being able to afford career guys.

  20. #40
    FyredUp
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    KEITH a8,

    What I choose to do on my off days, as long as it is not illegal, is no business of my employer.

    As far as the sick time issue goes, is the situation any different than any of the other guys on the job that "scab" (your word, not mine) at any other part time job? You know, such UNION jobs as roofing, carpentry, tile laying, plumbing, electrical work, truck driving, and so on and so on. If the injury problem is so severe where you work perhaps the rules should be changed to allow no outside part-time employment. What are the odds of that happening? Slightly less than ZERO!!

    As far as the workers comp issue, if I am hurt at my volly FD workers comp pays at the rate of the closest full time fire department. Of course I would be using sick time from the career FD, but so would you if you were roofing and fell off the roof and broke your leg. So in my opinion that whole argument doesn't wash.

    Do you engage in any hazardous sport type activities off duty? Perhaps skiing, or snowmobiling, or riding an ATV, or parachuting, or rock climbing, or hunting? How would you feel if your employer tried to make you stop because if you got injured you would have to use sick time to heal. I know this argument isn't apples to apples, but it does go into controlling what you do off the job.

    Now on to your "I don't care if there isn't a paid department within 100 miles you are still a scab", how am I a scab if there is no job to take? The fire department budget in the town I volly in is $39,000. How many paid guys can we hire? 1/4 of a guy maybe if we wanted to still pay the rest of the bills. In this entire county there are I believe 6 paid career fire fighters. They are not on my fire department. So please tell me how I am a scab?

    When and if this department grows to the point that we have full time staff I will step down, until then, I will serve my community as a volunteer.

    FyredUp

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