Volunteer officers commanding paid firefighters

[KeithA8]

FyredUp:

Did you read what I wrote? You're right it's not apples to apples. Is the carpenter getting paid? Yes. Is the carpenter working in a union shop? No. Is carpentry a conflict of interest to firefighting? No. If the carpenter is on a union job then yes he is a scab. But if not then he isn't.

Not hazardous? Maybe you should expand your mind and read a little. Firefighting is statisticly in the top ten most hazardous jobs in the world year after year. Workers compensation lists it as the MOST hazardous.

I have an idea - go to city hall and ask your mayor if he/she minds that you do your job for nothing in your home town. And ask him/her if it's ok for you to miss time and cost your city 10's of thousands of dollars in overtime pay to cover your position when you're out healing an injury from your volly town. It's not the same apple as roofing or snowmobiling. And if your home town dept. can't survive without you as a member then maybe it's time to hire proffesional firefighters. And I allready explained why you're a scab. Obviously you didn't get it.

------------------
IAFF member, Love this job! Hate SCABS!

[tkrzm]

With many state pension systems adding heart and lung bills to cover us career firefighters, I think the question of adding to this risk by volunteering in a different dept then expecting the career dept to cover all related costs and the retirement system to fork out a disability or death benifit will become a major factor in the future. At my dept we must get permission to work a second job. Your paperwork is reviewed and if it conflicts with work they can deny you. Only a few fell into this area, but it is true!!! Being a volly for another dept is a question of family. I choose not to place myself at greater risk then I already assume as a career firefighter. But when I help friends replace a toilet or fix a shingle on a roof I'm not crossing a union job, NEVER HAVE NEVER WILL. I have asked this before, give me an example of a union firefighter working a different union job as a scab??? Nobody can!!! I'm not against vollying on your time off, its a family decision. But don't enter a combo or paid dept on mutual aid then you are really scabbing!

[SAY_WHAT]

KeithA8

Wow Keith you seem to be a little angry. I think what the real problem might be is this, you were probably once married and your wife ran off with a volunteer and now since you can't function with out your medication you have to find a way to vent.

Then when you go to work you have to deal with volunteers who enjoy helping people and it just eats you up that those people give to their communities and don't get paid. I understand that you probably don't understand that being a firefighter comes from the heart, it's not something that disappears as soon as your relieved from duty.

[FyredUp]

Keith a8,

I'm going to type slower this time so maybe you can get it.

First show me where I said firefighting wasn't hazardous. You can't because I didn't say it.

Secondly, any firefighter that works in the trades that have UNION members is by definition a scab, if they are not a UNION member of that trade. Being a scab has nothing to do with whether it affects only your particular job. SO...now that that is settled let's move on to the next point.

If you are injured in any activity off the job, whether being a volly, or a scab at any other trade, or playing recreational sports, or whatever, you will use sick time from the job to allow you to heal. Perhaps you are advocating that sick time only cover illnesses and not injuries off duty. HEY!! I've got an idea, why don't you bring that up at the next UNION meeting. Hopefully you won't get injured and have to use sick time.

Now on to the greater issue, I never said my volly department would fold without me. You said that. I am no more or less important than any other member of that department. I do it for 2 reasons, personal satisfaction and service to the community where I live.

Your hostility over this issue is wasted.

FyredUp

[CanMan24]

Keith a8,

Call us want you want if it makes you feel better. Maybe you should take your medication a little more regulary, I am sure your CAREER position or City Hall will pay for that!!! I am both Career and Volunteer. I have been in the fire service for 12 years and currently work in a combination department. I have no problem taking orders, even if it is from a "vollie" officer. It is called CHAIN OF COMMAND! Would you jeoparidize the safety of a fellow firefighter by disobeying a direct order for the simple fact the Officer was a volunteer? I would hope NOT!! As far as your "HATE SCABS" phylosophy. I think it is a pitiful out-look. Have you EVER been a volunteer? If so, it is a shame that you have forgotten where you came from just for the simple fact that you have the IAFF letters behind your name and rank. I love what I do whether it be for a pay check or for free. I love the satisfaction of making a difference in someones life, and if you have a problem with me or the others scabbing, well SO FREAKIN' BE IT!!! I think you need to re-evaluate your pitiful life as a fireman. From your comments, it seems that you are out for only one thing.....YOURSELF, and I feel really sorry for you. Grow-up and pull that weed out of your ***!!

To all of the other brothers in here, congrats and keep up the good work of being both a career and volunteer man/woman. We know we make a difference and that is all that matters. NEVER FORGET OUR ROOTS!! Enough said!!

Pennsylvania FF/EMT 24

[NozzleHog]

Keith A8:
You are entitled to your opinion and I respect your point of view. I consider myself a loyal union member too, and to be honest, I knew that some more extreme members would consider me a "scab" when I started this.
Again, I can only say that I don't personally have a problem with it because:
1. There are no career departments whatsoever out here in the sticks. I know I will never interfere with a fellow professional firefighter's job.
2. It is not in violation of IAFF by laws for that reason (not a "rival organization").
3. My help is needed.
4. I love the job and agree with SAY_WHAT's statement, "being a firefighter comes from the heart, it's not something that disappears as soon as your relieved from duty."
I don't relish the idea of getting hurt at either dept. but as far as loyalty to my paid dept. goes, they generally screw over far more people than screw them, including members injured on the job. They have this down to an art form so I wouldn't worry too much about them. I have almost a year in accumulated vacation and sick leave, I earned it and it's mine to use regardless of the circumstances. When I'm not at work another fireman gets paid overtime, most of the brothers like that. Sorry, my loyalty is to my two families - the one at home and the one at the firehouse.
I live in a town of about 600 people, my volly department responds to less than 200 calls per year, do you really think we can afford or justify having a paid department?

tkrzm:
I agree that presumptive heart-lung bills complicate the situation and I have to admit, I didn't give that a lot of thought. I have never heard of it being an issue but it could easily become one. Guess it goes along with the possibility of being injured, something you just hope doesn't happen. You are absolutely right with what you say about not entering a combination dept. or a paid department on mutual aid. Yes, that would really be scabbing. I would be totally opposed to that, never have done it and never will.

Nate:
As usual, your response is stupid. On the other hand, at least you are consistent. It would be easy to continue to belittle and ostracize you but it seems everyone else on these forums is doing a fine job of that already. Sorry, you are not worthy of a more considered reply.

[This message has been edited by NozzleHog (edited 05-16-2001).]

[CFD14]

I thank God I live and volunteer where I do. A lot of your places just seem messed up. We have career/paid Chief, Asst. Chief, Svc/Safety Officer, Lts and Volunteer Capts. Everybody works together, takes orders, gives orders and obeys orders. We rarely do mutual aid and when we do it is to an all volunteer dept. Those depts don't care what the pay status is, they just want help on something they can't handle. If they want a certain job done and ask us to take care of it, its done. (unless we deem it unsafe or unnecessary) Professional people/firefighters don't tell others to "go pound sand" That is very unprofessional.

Now I have a two part question. We volunteers help out our dept. (non-union dept.) and cover a relief shift, holiday or vacation day once in a while. We get paid the starting wage of a FF1 for a 24 hr shift. Do any of you consider that to be a "scab" and why?

[Oak Grove LT]

Look at the topic. Simple...get it? An officer is in command until relieved by another officer of higher rank. On the fireground I don't have time to ask a guy for his i.d. or if he's volunteer or paid! I look to see if he's of higher rank and then go from there. If he issues an order I think could cause harm to myself or to someone else then I will RESPECTFULLY tell him, offer an alternative or if ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY contact the IC.Different areas use the chain of command differently. In some areas a paid ff may never be placed in a situation where he is under a volunteer officer. Thats fine for his area but what happens when that paid guy goes mutual aid out of his area? I can pretty much guarantee that if he disobeyed a direct order from a volunteer officer in that volunteer officers area one of two things would happen...the job will get done anyway and the paid guy looks like an idiot or he could be legally removed from the area. Both are a losing situation since I thought the idea was to save lives and protect property.

[CFD14]

Oak Grove, very well stated.

[tkrzm]

CFD14: This is a perfect question to ask and a big problem with combo depts. You are a scab if: the city is using you as cheap labor and not paying OT to the fulltime members, or if this practice is allowing the city to not properly staff the department and not hire additional firefighters (maybe yourself) to cover the shortages. You are not a scab if: All fulltime firefighters turndown OT and you as a qualified replacement are "hired" by a fair process, or if the dept uses you "temps" as a step towards being hired fulltime, or if the fulltime members don't have a problem with it why should I???
Question: What if the city started to use you more and more. With the career ff's haveing less and less OT or less staff etc. Would you stop?? Would you protest?? Would you stop Volunteering until it was reversed?? What would or could you do!!!

[CFD14]

Good answer, I only work a shift when the full timer doesn't want to, like I posted earlier. Vacations, Holidays or relief shifts when the full time staff doesn't want to cover it. We won't ever have a reduction of full time staff, only an increase if our city would continue to expand and grow.

[CaptainRescue75]

Maybe people should start looking at this whole career vs. volunteer issue in a different light. I should know, since I was a volunteer for 10 years before recently going career.

In the department in which I am a Career Captain, we have ONE unified chain of command. We have a Career Chief, Volunteer Deputy Chief, three Career Captains, one Volunteer Captain, and several Lieutenants (can be either career or volunteer, and we have had both). Our department does not have volunteer medics/fire fighters or career medics/fire fighters. We have "TECHNICIANS" and "OFFICERS". The fact that one person receives a pay check and another doesn't receive on does not change the fact that we are all here to do the same job and that is "to protect and to serve our public" to paraphrase things.

As has been said in previous posts, 1) some volunteers are more knowledgable than some career personnel and vice-versa and 2) this garbage of career vs. volunteer needs to stop!

Just my two cents...

[dumbhosehead]

Would you take orders from a drunk volly officer or a "CAREER" officer who has to take exams to be promoted!!!!

[KBHFD11]

My district... 8 paid full time, 60 volunteers.. If you do not wish to follow orders, don't be on the department. I guess you all would say career firefighters are professional firemen.. NOT! The whole department is professional because we all have pride in one another. If you don't trust ppl. how can you fight fire w/ them? PAID & VOLUNTEER.. same thing. Do the same job, have the same training. How can you say one is better than the other?]

Kevin
Louisville, Ky volunteer, soon to be paid.
Firefighter/EMT

[dumbhosehead]

That is the problem with vollies, how can you claim to be a "PROFESSIONAL" when vollies have bars in their firehouse and don't tell me it's only for parties?????

How can you claim to be a "PROFESSIONAL" when the only thing you need to be promoted is the amount of time you have been a member of a department and you think an officers position is owed to you or your best friends are the majority of voting members in the department?????

Do you have minimum requirements or some type of testing to be in that officers position?????

Most volly houses don't, and you want them to give you orders, I THINK NOT!!!!

LONG LIVE THE INTERNATIONAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

[CAPNJEFF1202]

In my area, this is how it works, a simple lesson in authority and chain of command:

A Lieutenant outranks a Firefighter,
A Captain outranks a Lieutenant,
A Deputy/Assistant/Battalion Chief outranks a Captain,
A Chief outranks everyone (except of course, the Safety Officer)

My dept (part paid/POC) gets along and works well with the career/union depts. When they come to our scene they take direction and orders from us, and vice versa. It's called TEAMWORK!

Let the union vs "vollie" issue die already.

[KBHFD11]

First of all why don't you take off your union hat, bumper stickers, ect. And come join the team man...
We are all firefighters and for you to say your better than me because I'm a volunteer is BS. I've paid my dues, took my test, past drills, and for that I don't want to hear that I'm a nobody. If I was on a fire ground and gave you a order, I would expect it to get done or you would be finding a new line of work. Not all fire departments are in po dunk county. We ALL have to take test to be promoted, have to do drills w/ one another, and we ALL fight fires together. It's a brotherhood, it's a family! Thats the problem w/ some of you "career" fireman. I think you all forgot that. We would the fire service be w/out volunteers? It was founded on ppl volunteering. We are not expected to make ever run thats why we are VOLUNTEERS..duh.
I for one can run circles around a lot a paid firemen. I guess it's because their hands are still greasy from the bags of potato chips they have been munching on.

With that I'm done... To EVERYONE be safe

Kevin

[dr inferno]

KBHFD11: This whole thing doesn't apply to me as I don't have to work under volunteer officers but you are way out of line. Just because you are a volunteer that don't make you an equal. Hell because I can hold and identify an open end wrench does that make me an automotive technician? No. Because I can go into court and have a traffic ticket knocked down or thrown out does that make me a lawyer? Hardly!! You are trying to compare apples to oranges and as everyone knows they are not the same. As for the potato chip thing once again a poor attempt at slinging mud on the (and I'll use your words) brotherhood and family. Go pick up your notes and study harder so next time you can pass the exam and make it as a career man.

BTW: The sign on the door reads CAREER/PAID FIREFIGHTERS FORUM so the union stuff stays.

[KBHFD11]

I don't know how things work in your part of the country buddy but in ours WE all work together. Like I said, here career firefighter have to and will follow orders from volunteer officers. I am an equal, regaurdless if I'm a volunteer. You want to know why, because long after I am hired at my fire department I will remember that I WAS a volunteer. I can see that I will never get my point across here. You see what you want to see. I fight fire, just like you. I clean and do house chores, like you. The only difference is I'm not paid. Why are we so different then? Were not... Burst the bubble man, I put my life on the line every day to. So, don't give me that crap of "career fireman are better". They are not better.
By the way, let me pull the mud that your throwing off my face and say. I WILL be hired within a month, so I guess I studied enough..
I will not look down on volunteers though, it takes a special person to volunteer.
CHAIN OF COMMAND is the name of th game, you sound like a free lancer.
For the record, my fire department has 2 paid chiefs. So not all of our officers are volunteers.
Kevin
Firefighter/EMT



[This message has been edited by KBHFD11 (edited 05-29-2001).]

[570eck]

Dr insano and dumbasshosehead you guys are a trip are you serious or just a couple of people out to stir the pot. I do em both and like I've said before both have great guys and both have idiots your posts tell me which of the groups you fall into. And as to hold a wrench not making you a mechanic, holding a hose doesn't make you a firefighter go back to watering lawns I'm printing your posts I need some toliet paper.