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  1. #61
    dr inferno
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    KBHFD11: Obviously if being a volunteer is such a great deal to you maybe you shouldn't take a career job and keep being the golden child you think you are by doing a job for free. Just cause you are a volunteer don't think the sun shines out of your ***, being a volunteer is a double edged sword you can be a professional in one instant and then when things go badly you can use the catch all phrase "What do they expect we are just volunteers?" Once you take the job as a career man and understand how the volunteer aspect fits in your views may change.

    570eck:You have the balls to call a couple of union brothers idiots? Now that is pathetic. You as a career man should have the pride to defend your profession and choose your side as the politicians in your area may decide that if there are this many people willing to do the job for free what a great savings for the municipality!! Use your words carefully as they might come back and bite you on the ***. As for my analogy of the mechanic and firefighter, here's another one for ya. Just cause you have a computer and it has spelling and grammar check don't mean that you are smart enough to use it.

    PS If you are going to use our posts as toilet paper that's fine just remember to pull your head out of your *** before you sit down.

    [This message has been edited by dr inferno (edited 05-30-2001).]


  2. #62
    KeithA8
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    Hey boy's - it's been a while since I've stoped by this forum.

    Well, Well, Well,
    I see we have a new member of the scab company. 570eck that's you!

    KBHFD11: You bring up a good question - Where would the fire service be without volunteers? It would be a carreer service. Did you ever wonder why there are so few fire jobs? And wonder why it takes so long to get hired? And why there is so much compitition for the job? It's because people like you volunteer and don't create enough of a need to fill your position with a paid position. And for those of you who have no intentions of being a carreer firefighter then good job! You provide a wonderful service to your comunity. KBHFD11 hope you don't become a scab when you get on the job. I'm sure your local is looking forward to your resignation letter to your volunteer dept.

    dumbhosehead & dr. inferno - Way to go brothers!

    ------------------
    IAFF member, Love this job! Hate SCABS!

  3. #63
    570eck
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    First off Doc. good one on the sitting down thing. Now I've never been BIG city or will I ever probably be, so I can't speak from your vantage. My vollie town was so poorly managed in past years that they are trying to do away with the pd because they can't afford it, how in the hell are they gonna afford a paid fire dept.. Easy answer they can't, does that mean that my neighbors don't deserve the help that my training and experience bring them. Do all the guys who run up a storm about scabs see an accident and say the hell with it, someone thats getting paid to do it will be along to take care of it, I realy hope not. I'm not downing union guys or trying to down any part of it, but sometimes you need to get off your highhorse and help out the little guy. Another question for scab haters your dept. has a call, small job, but right next door are you saying the hell with it then let them take care of it I'm off, or do you help pull a line. I appoligize for any misguided thoughts about me downing the union or members of it was not intended in any way. My point is, some towns will never ever be able to afford a paid dept. and bringing in a neighboring town is a good idea but the five-ten minute trek across town might be too long. I didn't sign up for the paycheck I did it because I like making the differnce in peoples life, I just happen to get paid for the best job going.

  4. #64
    CanMan24
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    Keith A8,

    Since you are such the "glorious" Union member you say you are, you would know the correct terminology behind the term "SCAB". A "SCAB" is a Union member who volunteers in a CAREER, UNIONIZED house, who crosses the Union by-laws! Any Union member who is volunteering in a 100% volunteer house is nothing more than a dedicated VOLUNTEER who chooses to help people outside the pay-check. And if this is what a Career/Union member chooses to do with their OWN time is there perogative. If we needed someone like yourself to hold our hands and tell us what we CAN and CAN NOT do I am sure we would all move back home to our mama's place!! I think if Ben Franklin could see your infantile, pitiful comments, he would be rolling over in his grave. Because Keith, since you are a smart guy, you should know........Ben Franklin founded the FIRST VOLUNTEER fire department in the nation! And don't try and debate my theory, I did a major term paper on this in college and scored excellent scores and reviews for my FINE work!! I think you need to look at the big picture here. Yeah, Keith helps his City or County by being a IAFF member....GREAT, BLOW MY LOAD, HAPPY FOR HIM!!! If it weren't for some of the country's lower income VOLUNTEER departments and VOLUNTEERS out there, some communities wouldn't have fire protection. And yeah, you can debate me and say "Well, then put paid men/women in there" If the community can't pay for career staffing, the only other alternative is VOLUNTEERS!!! As I stated a few replies back. I am both career and volunteer, however.....I run with a 100% volunteer house with no career or unionized members, so I can not, and WILL NOT be referred to as a "SCAB". So Keith....Go enjoy your fully paid, fully funded career as a IAFF member. I know I enjoy my career and enjoy my volunteering. I wouldn't want to do anything else in the world. It seems as if you aren't a "true" brother who likes to bring the morale together, but only brings it down. Maybe you should start your own Union or fire department and name it......."I am a smart guy,IAFF Local 1234 Fire Department" and leave us do what we enjoy. Go get bent and stop talking out both orifices. Enough said, because I am sure you will have a much more intelligent reply of why YOU think there shouldn't be any volunteers!

    Pennsylvania FF/EMT-24
    Love this job- "HATE KEITH A8"

    [This message has been edited by CanMan24 (edited 05-31-2001).]

  5. #65
    KBHFD11
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Dr.
    Beinga volunteer is a big deal to me, because I'm proud of everyone that takes the time to do it. As for me, I'm ready to move ahead a make a living doing what I love. When I'm hired I will not look down on volunteers that I will still train and fight fires with though. By the way, the comment about the sun coming out of my ***. Put some glasses on dude. I don't want to hear it. How are you going to even compare what my fire department does with yours. You know nothing, and I couldn't even begin to explain. My fire department is not the only one in the county, and it's not the City of Louisville fire department. There are 21 different departments in the county. 126 sq. mile district. All department are combination departments. You know what that is don't you? Paid/volunteers.
    See we all work together.
    It's not like being on a double edeged sword. We all work together! If something happens, it's the fire department. Not the volunteers! We have had a fatality. Not many people know how that feels, hope they don't have to find out. Thats besides the point. It wasn't a volunteer thing, it was a arson thing. **** happend.
    My views will not change because I know where I came from, and I sure as hell know where I'm going. Hopefully one day I'll be your boss. Then let me hear you bad mouth volunteers. I hope you get mad about that comment. Cause if you do, it will be you just making an *** out of yourself again.
    Why can't you just say, volunteers do the same job?
    If you truly beleive they are worthless there is only one thing I can do. That is turn my head. But know this, you will be making all career firefighters look bad.
    KEITH:
    My county has not yet adopted the union. My whole family is union, and I at my present job am union. So, when I'm hired I won't be.
    My department is combination, so I do not have to resign. It's the same department.
    Thanks for backin me up though brother.

    Kevin

    [This message has been edited by KBHFD11 (edited 05-31-2001).]

  6. #66
    Kissmibut
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    I dont think the professional/vollie thing should make a difference.You can tell by listening to the officer giving the orders if he has a clue as to what he is doing or not.If he knows what he is doing I will listen to him,if he doesnt know I will buck him,Doesnt matter much to me if he is paid or not.I am a career ff and currently an officer of a busy company.We occationally assist the vollies in the local area.Most of the time when we arrive the vollie oic will meet with me and explain what they have and ask what do I think.Then together we will decide what my company will do.We both normally show mutual respect to each other.I show him respect because I know its his scene and him to me because he knows I have more hands on experience most of the time.There only seems to be one exception locally and that is with a vollie chief who keeps trying to take over our city ems with a dept that doesnt answer half of the calls they receive in their own district. Of course half of his own men dont respect him either.

  7. #67
    dr inferno
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    KBHFD11: Once again you sling your mud and garbage around the career forum. You are telling me that you are going to be hired soon. Great good for you, but until then do not come in this forum with your one sided views talking about the views of a volunteer in a composite department. (You know what composite is don't you? Career/volunteer) The composite factor is always going to be contentious at best. Once you get hired and find yourself facing the issues that union brothers are trying to rectify on a daily basis you will probably find yourself rethinking your views. Just for clarification purposes I did not in either post defame the volunteer fire service, I did however make the point that they are not the same. Once again you have taken my post and misconstrued the information. (Part of good reading skill is comprehension.) As for being my boss I doubt it, as my area has strict guidelines in hiring the most qualified and educated and already career person.

  8. #68
    caza_28
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    look i have been a vol for two years, the first to respond to me is the ic, but trust is important, but i get an order i follow then ask questions later. i guess being in the millitary has a lot to do with it. but to my time being in the fire service i have yet to have a request that was out of line. we are all called to do the same thing. right???

    stay safe

  9. #69
    Plug-Ugly
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    First off, I work in an all career department so this is not a personal issue for me and I don't really know the inner workings or politics of combination departments that have both volunteer and career personnel. I'm just trying to think this out and see where I really stand on this issue. For years I've been hearing this career/volunteer battle and usually just fluff it off because it hasn't affected me.

    Speaking as a career firefighter, if we were on the same department, I would probably resent being told what to do by someone from Bob's Boat Yard, or Tony's Texaco Station, or Wal-Mart, or wherever, who shows up at fires (when he can make it) and has been given a title. If that was the department's policy, I would have to follow it but would still resent it. Can't help it, it's how I feel.

    I'm sure if I was the volunteer officer, I would feel totally different. I would probably say, "Hey this is policy, follow it or quit."

    I know I'm walking the fence here, but that's what this issue is all about. It just depends what side of the fence you're on.



  10. #70
    Bishop10
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    volunteer firefighters..........that is why there are Career Firefighters

    [This message has been edited by Bishop10 (edited 06-01-2001).]

  11. #71
    Brian Dunlap
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    Originally posted by dumbhosehead:
    Would you take orders from a drunk volly officer or a "CAREER" officer who has to take exams to be promoted!!!!
    So what you are saying is all Volunteer Officers are Drunks and all Career Officers, because they are book smart, and get a pay check are god ? Think again....All Firefighters/Fireofficers No matter thier status { Career or Volunteer } are where they are because of thier knowledge and experience { Although Some Vollie Companies play the popularity game which I personaly think is bad business } If a department is combo paid/volunteer and it just so happens that the vollie officer arrives before the career staff....then so be it he/she is in charge period until relieved by a higher ranking department officer....There should be no question. Now if the Volly Officer is Drunk as you claim all Vollie Officers are than they should be removed from the scene and the first senior ranking firefighter {again career or vollie } is in charge.
    Why is it that some and I say Some Guys { Such as your-self } in career firefighter positions think that because you are career firefighters that you are above everyone who volunteers ? Let me remind you that Volunteers were here long before the Career Departments and long before the I.A.F.F. -- You are not above anyone...We Vollies { or Hooples as some of you like to call us } went through the same training{ and in some cases more because we don't wine when we don't get paid to go additional training }
    Fire looks at us both in the same manner so why the expressed hatred towards us hooples ? I don't understand as I'm sure you don't either but because a few of your "Union Brothers" decided they don't think vollie firefighters are worth a sh** or vollie officers should be comanding "paid guys" you decided to jump the band wagon....
    as most in the I.A.F.F. have done when it comes to these arguments. Seriously dumbhosehead...I'm sure you are an excellant firefighter and proud of your job ...I know I would be but give us Vollies a break you might actually learn something from us...We're not all a bunch of drunks { I Personally don't drink alcohol at all }

    ------------------
    STRATFORD FIRE CO. # 1 NEW JERSEY STATE FIREMEN'S CONVENTION
    OVER-ALL CHAMPIONS 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, and 2000 !!

    ***The Opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not reflect those of the Department to which I am a Member ! ***

  12. #72
    daysleeper47
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    The way I remember it being for the military is that you follow any lawful order from any superior officer, regardless of if he/she is your direct commander or even in your brach of service. The same should apply to the fire service. I realize that they are not the military, or even close, but the basics here should be the same. Like someone else said, if you refuse an order to do something, someone else will, and you stand there looking like an ***.

    ------------------
    Joe
    Daysleeper47
    "When the bell goes ding-ding, its time to get on the woo-woo."
    "Dusting desire - starting to learn. Walking through fire with out a burn..."
    Youngstown Fire Department

  13. #73
    tkrzm
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    NOTE*** I thought this was the paid/career firefighters forum, for career firefighters to share ideas and experiences. The volunteer forum is the next one down. If you don't like the topic or answers go to the volly site. I don't go to your site and beat my chest or pat my back. So all this were better than you stuff is fine, at your volunteer forum not here. The average career firefighter (especially from combo depts) feel we provide a better service. So What. I feel on average we provide a much better service. I'm sure you feel different, again so what!! I could give a crap! The topic was taking orders from a volunteer officer. Here in the paid/career ff forum most can't fathom it. For me working in a combo dept, It is a disgrace to the fire service that near braindead volunteers are elected Chief's!!! It should never happen! This is a big reason we don't have any political pull in Washington or get hardly any funding. How can you take the fire service seriously knowing what really goes on.

  14. #74
    daysleeper47
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Very educated and well-thought reponse tkrzm.

  15. #75
    dumbhosehead
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Well Mr. Dunlap,
    I did not say all vollies are drunks. But it seems to me that you agree with what I said "{ Although Some Vollie Companies play the popularity game which I personaly think is bad business }".
    Has your department ever pulled a member off the scene because they were "drinking"?
    You even said that favoratism exists, does it exists in the town of Stratford?
    And if it does are you doing anything to change it?
    Do you want to risk your life for someone who was placed in office because they were popular or they went out drinking with the majority of voting members?
    I believe if you get paid to do a job you will work harder to do it, and if that is not true then we all should quit our full-time jobs and hang around waiting for the big one.
    I know what it is to be a volunteer, I have been one for 15 years and made it a career for 10. So I think I know how it is to be a volly.

  16. #76
    daysleeper47
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Actually Mr. dumbhosehead, it has been proven by psychologists that people work harder and enjoy things more the less they are paid, or not paid at all. According to "Psychology: Mind, Brain, and Culture" by Drew Weston, a professor at Harvard, altruistic behavior is the main drive behind anything in which we give of urselves, whether it be a pure desire to help, or the primary allevaition of our own desire. A study by someone else, I forgot who, in the 1950's took random people and gave them a very long and tedious task to do. Half of the group was paid $50, a large sum back then, and the pother half got about $1.00. The people paid $1.00 got more enjoyment out of it and did it faster, saying that they enjoyed the task and it gave them a sense of self-worth. The people payed the $50 almost all despised the task by the end. So by saying that volunteers aren't going to work as hard is crap, and I just gave you facts proving your statement wrong. (Ohh, and if you want to get the book, its on page 833)...and the vollie vs. paid dilemna goes on!!!

    ------------------
    Joe
    Daysleeper47
    "When the bell goes ding-ding, its time to get on the woo-woo."
    "Dusting desire - starting to learn. Walking through fire with out a burn..."
    Youngstown Fire Department

  17. #77
    Plug-Ugly
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    Hmm, I wonder if ol' professor Drew Weston got paid for writing that book or for teaching at Harvard?

  18. #78
    dumbhosehead
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    WELL,WELL,WELL
    Mr. Daysleeper I think it's time for you to get on your woo-woo because the ding-ding is going off in your head. Do you believe a everything this Psychologist says, don't you know you have to have a sick mind in order to understand a sick brain?

    I guess a crackhead is happy to be a crackhead, or a junkie a junkie!!!! They don't get paid to smoke the pipe, but they love to do it!

    Tell me, what world do you live on where everything is perfect?

    Let's get back to the original question, taking orders from volunteer officers. Yes, I admit there are some good volunteer officers out there and I know a few, but most of those good officers are probably paid firefighters or fire officers. They do it, they breathe it, EVERYDAY!
    About 2 months ago I read an article in USA TODAY and the Secretary of State says if the US went to war then the US would be in trouble because the military reserves(part-soldiers), which I have the utmost respect for, will not be able to handle most large scale conflicts; because of a lack of money and training. Now would you send them into battle without proper training? I hope you wouldn't.
    The fire service is like the military, vollies train a few times a month and think firefighting is just another hobby, now put a $30,000.00 paycheck in their hands and I bet they will train there *** off everyday.
    I think I would want someone who trains everyday to give me orders!

    IAFF and PROUD OF IT!!!!



  19. #79
    FireLt1951
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Daysleeper47,

    Understand one thing about Psychology, it has never been or will be an exact science. It is subjective in nature, directly related to the individual doing the study and the types of individuals that they chose to put into the study.

    Now we return to the subject at hand.

    Actually I'm glad that I am never put into this situation because of the department I work for. I'm not sure I could follow a volunteer officer into a lot of different situations. I taught volunteers for over 16 years, along with paid and part paid departments. They have heart, I'll give them that but very few could give their all to training because of other things in their life such as work and family which took a higher priority, as it should.

    [This message has been edited by FireLt1951 (edited 06-03-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by FireLt1951 (edited 06-03-2001).]

  20. #80
    Brian Dunlap
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Originally posted by dumbhosehead:
    Well Mr. Dunlap,
    I did not say all vollies are drunks. But it seems to me that you agree with what I said "{ Although Some Vollie Companies play the popularity game which I personally think is bad business }".
    Has your department ever pulled a member off the scene because they were "drinking"?
    You even said that favoritism exists, does it exists in the town of Stratford?
    And if it does are you doing anything to change it?
    Do you want to risk your life for someone who was placed in office because they were popular or they went out drinking with the majority of voting members?
    I believe if you get paid to do a job you will work harder to do it, and if that is not true then we all should quit our full-time jobs and hang around waiting for the big one.
    I know what it is to be a volunteer, I have been one for 15 years and made it a career for 10. So I think I know how it is to be a volley.
    Yes I do agree with you in part....In my department { Stratford } officers are appointed by the Chief based upon level of Training, and knowledge. In order to become a Captain { For example } one must have been a Lieutenant first and then move up through the ranks as positions become vacated. In my company you can not become a Chief Officer until you have served as both a lieutenant and captain. Our Chief does not tolerate un-knowledgeable officers. He also does not tolerate being intoxicated on the fire-ground. Not only would the officer or firefighter be sent home he/she would be terminated from the company with out any chance to re-join. From my point of view my chief runs a tight ship and the 35 active volunteers respect him for it. --- I have the highest amount of respect for those that chose firefighting as a career so please don't take me the wrong way but there are some pretty knowledgeable volley officers out there and they should be respected on the fire scene even in a career/volley department.

    Peace and Stay Safe out there !

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