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  1. #81
    daysleeper47
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FireLt1951, I will give you that, psychology is not an exact science, but I felt that these arguments refutted hoseheads point, but hey, being that its not an exact science, one could make a great point to the contrary. Ok, and now I apoligize for taking you guys off task. Get back to the issue at hand.


  2. #82
    HHVFD2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Red face

    Let me get this all straight. All i see here is the same old Paid/Vollie crap that's been going on for eons.

    As a former Paid Captain and now a Vollie Chief Officer I find this all an ego thing.

    I have had the occasion to work with a few young hotshots from a neighboring Paid Dept. They felt that they were gods. Now that I have reached my 21st year in the fire service I have come to the conclusion that we all do the same thing.

    If some moronic second year FF1 decides, on a mutual aid call to my district, that he/she is above me or my IC, He/she will be removed from my incident, by force if necessary.

    There is no place for that here. We may be just vollies to you, but we are also the district officers.

  3. #83
    Fuller
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Okay, I agree that there should not be any difference between officers on the fireground. If they in command when you get there, then they will be in charge of you. I started my fire service career with an all volunteer dept., moved on to a combo dept(where I served as a vol. and then career), and then to an all career dept. I also serve with my original vol. dept again. There are volunteer officers in that first departnment that have more training than some officers in my career dept. However, I will follow orders from both when I am under their command. That is the way it should be

  4. #84
    hanger44
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs down

    I have been reading the replies to this post and shaking my head. There is enough B.S. here to fertilize a good sized farm. I am a Captain on my hometown Fire Dept.(and I don't even use the term volunteer). We don't train every day but when I'm not at my regular job I am either at a Fire Prevention meeting, a Trainer Co-ordinators meeting, a regular training, a special training, an extrication training, pumper op. training, etc...... Don't expect everyone to believe that fulltime firefighters train 24-7 because we just don't buy it. I have heard that we don't do regular training, we don't look after our vehicles or our equipment. This is total crap!!! Where does the money come from for the "professional" Dept's. The "Volunteer" Depts raise the money for the most part. Therefore I feel that there is a great deal more pride on our side of things. For those who are Professional FF's and volunteer at home but don't take on Officer or Trainer roles shame on you!! If, from what I read here you feel that the pay check makes you that much better than the rest then you should put up or shut up.
    I didn't think that I would get caught up in this rediculous arguement but enough is enough already.
    I have heard the neighbouring city go out on calls that required call backs(overtime). The dispatch would call the I/C and tell him that he has called everyone but nobody would come. This was due to visitors or a barbeque or "I'm in the pool". I dare say that you would never hear this from the Volunteer guys.
    I do agree that this topic will go on and on and there will never be total agreement on it. But remember that on a scene the I/C is THE man in charge and if you don't like it, STAY HOME.


  5. #85
    tkrzm
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hanger44: Like I have posted before, this is the paid/career forum not the volunteer beat my chest pat my back forum. I could care less if you fund drive, get out of the pool to get the truck etc. The topic was career FF taking orders from voulnteers who in many cases are barely qualified as a probationary FF. Go to the volly forum if you want to bash the career service. Talk about spreading crap. Their are some of us who work in this unfortunate situation so I again could care less how well trained you are, or who you would take orders from. You are irrevelant to the topic.

  6. #86
    hanger44
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Thanks for your reply tkrzm. Just once in a while I check into this site to find out what is happening out there. Apparently not much. I see that you also feel that the Vol Chiefs are not worthy of being where they are either. Whaaaateverrr. I can see that you have issues.

  7. #87
    EMTmem
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    All the Paid guys are right,this is there forum, and if the vollies don't like it then don't come in here, it is that simple. you can't change there minds, most of the paid guys do what all of the vollies want to do or once wanted to do, and that is to be a full time IAFF firefighter. I am not a paid firefighter but I am working on that status and when I am I will be proud to say that i am IAFF.

  8. #88
    hanger44
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    EMTmem, Sounds to me like you are already there. Good Luck

  9. #89
    CanMan24
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    To Whom it May Concern:

    Even though I am a career man, I am ALSO volunteer. What makes a volunteer any less professional or qualified then a paid man? Is it merely the fact a "paid man" gets a pay check or the IAFF sticker on the car/truck? I DON'T THINK SO!!! I guarantee it......Even if I was NOT a career man, I could put most of you smart asses to shame and do the job as well IF NOT BETTER and stand-up to the best of you!! (and if any of you would want to see my degree, schooling and certifications I would be more than happy to fax the information to you) Even though I get paid for my job I love volunteering and I think some you need to stop the vollie bashing, and get over yourselves. The bottom line is we are all here to do the same job, some simply do not receive a pay check for their efforts and there is not a damn thing wrong with that!!!

    Be Safe,
    Pennsylvania FF/EMT 24
    Love this job......."HATE KEITH A8"

  10. #90
    Bishop10
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Greetings,

    I agree with most of the folks who have replied in this forum. The volunteers should take a hike and go back to their own forum. This forum, as stated, indicates "Career" not volunteer.

    Now to reply to the topic at hand, I think career firefighters should not have to listen to the vollie officer. The reason I feel this way is that too many vollie officers are "appointed" or "elected". This does not mean they are qualified to lead because of a title. They were given such titles because they clean the trucks, are "yes" men, etc... At least in a Career Fire Department, one has to be on the job for several years even before being able to take a test. And most don't get promoted with less than 10 years on. This does not say that vollie's don't train alot, some actually do. And a few even have Firefighter 1, 2, and 3 (as do most Career Firefighters), but a kid of 18 years old can attain these certifications, does that make them a qualified leader?

    And yes, alot of Career firefighters came from the vollies ranks. That is were their interest in firefighting grew. BUT that is also were their knowledge of vollies came about and how they do business. Thus, our negative reponses to this topic, in my opinion.

  11. #91
    tkrzm
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Bishop: Finally someone got it right. Your post is 100% correct.

  12. #92
    KeithA8
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    CanMan24: You're a SCAB!!!

    Have a nice day!

    ------------------
    IAFF member, Love this job! Hate SCABS!

  13. #93
    KeithA8
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    CanMan24: You're a SCAB!!!

    Have a nice day!

    ------------------
    IAFF member, Love this job! Hate SCABS!

  14. #94
    CanMan24
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    KeithA8.....YOU.....Are an *******!!! Once again, if you would follow-up with the IAFF the way you say you do, you would know the correct termanology. Once again I will explain it to you. Hold on.....I'll get my crayons and coloring book so you understand better in your childish, inmature mind!! A "SCAB" is a Union/Career member who volunteers in a house where there are Unionized/Career men present, and working. A Union/Career person who is volunteering in a 100% VOLUNTEER house outside of his/her career is nothing more than a dedicated volunteer member who chooses to assist his community or city!! Where I ride is 100% VOLUNTEER with ALL members being highly trained and qualified....Most of which could probably make your head spin and put your *** to shame in the fire service realm. So why don't you go re-read your Union books and bi-laws and find out what the true meaning is behind the term "SCAB" before you start spouting off at who you believe is a "SCAB", you may be enlightened!! Come down off your "whoa is me" attitude and get your head out of your ***, you may be able to see the light a little easier!!

    Have a nice day!!

    "Love this job......HATE KEITH A8"

    [This message has been edited by CanMan24 (edited 06-14-2001).]

  15. #95
    Jeff801
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Once again, another passionate issue digresses. Lets face a few simple truths:

    1. There will ALWAYS be Career firefighters and there will ALWAYS be Volunteers.
    2.We all know Good firefighters.
    3.We all know Bad firefighters.
    4.We are all passionate about our contributions to the fire service.

    Now that the obvious has been stated, the real issue is ability. If Volunteer Officers have been to the National Fire Academy in Maryland, or they have completed NFA training then shouldn't they lead?

    If a career officer has not been afforded the oppertunity for the same training, but they have the experience to back up their orders, shouldn't they also be able to lead.

    Both know good orders and bad orders. The Incident Command System is sacred (in the form in which your department has it adopted). As a paid company officer I have confronted orders that were not safe based on the timeliness that they were given. That is a safeguard of having a company officer. I live by the structure of the fireground. If you make a point to know the officers that may command you, you will then learn their strenghts and weaknesses. Competance knows no boundries.

  16. #96
    Bishop10
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Aloha,

    I have to laugh. This subject matter has gotten out of hand. But who am I........LOL

    Anyhow, I am am going to deviate away from the subject matter and ask Canman24 a question: What does your local say about you "volunteering"? Yes, I know what the IAFF bylaws say, but don't you have any dedication to your own job and local? How is your pay, benefits, etc....? Are you one of the guys who "bitch" about not getting enough? If that is the case, then maybe you should give up "volunteering" and put that time into your locals work and make it a better local and better job.

    Also, what happens to you if you get injured at you "volunteer" FD position, or even killed? Do you have to use your own sick days to cover yourself in case of injury at the vollie place? What if you use it all up, can you get coverage? How about a survivors pension for you family in case of LODD in the vollie service? Do you really expect you city you work for to provide one if killed off of the job? Maybe if you are vested, they might get alittle something, but not much I am sure.

    Can, this is just "food for thought", not to critize you for being a "vollie" off duty. I don't agree with career firefighters volunteering of duty, but if your local allows it, so be it. As for being called a "scab" by Keith, I will agree with Keith. The reason, up here in the northeast, we use that as a general term for career firefighters who also vollie. So don't take offense to that. It is just like swearing, once you have it in your system, tough to get rid of, LOL.

  17. #97
    WGH
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Is there really a difference between a paid ff and a volunteer? Not really. One gets paid to to a job and the other risks his life because they LOVE it. We all put our bunkers on the same way. Now there are some paid departments who don't know **** about firefighting as the same for some volunteer depts. It's how you are trained! Any department can be trained to be a great department, it's all about training.

    I started my career as a volunteer and now I'm a paid firfighter for the same department. I still make calls on my days off.

  18. #98
    CanMan24
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    I commend WGH.......Keep up the good work at doing what WE love!!! You are right, there should be NO difference in career vs. volunteer, but I guess in the mentality of some, that is the only way they know how to think!! "Me big career man, no volunteers" Most firefighters began in the volunteer service and still have NOT forgotten where they came from, and that is GREAT!!!

    And to Bishop......Maybe it is the area you come from, but in my department and county a "SCAB" is the way I explained, and nothing more. But if you agree with Keith, so be it.......It looks like maybe you both are 2 pee's in a pod, and think with the same brain cells. I know nothing will deter me from doing what I love. And if I can do it on both sides of the coin I will continue to do so because this is what I love, and wouldn't want to anything else. Keep going with your bad self in your career department. Maybe someday it might be the "volunteers" that may have to help save your life or property. What are you going to do then, say "These guys are volunteer...I don't want them helping" or just be happy someone is there in your time of need? THINK ABOUT IT!!!!

  19. #99
    tkrzm
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    WHG: How can you volunteer for the same dept you work for??? This is against the law!!! A few posts back I gave a fair describtion of a scab. You volunteering in your own combo dept makes you a scab, plain and simple. Volunteering in a 100% vollie dept, I don't think makes you a scab, but some of the points made in a few past posts are correct. Many states are passing heart and lung bills that will cover us career firefighters. Guess what if you are active in another dept, such as a volunteer or parttimer in a combo dept you might not be covered. The pension systems won't allow it. In NJ if you get disabled or killed volunteering in the dept you work for, your out of luck!!! As for me I don't volunteer as a choice of family. My wife and kids are more important than increasing my risk at firefighting. I love the job but I won't risk it just to fight another fire.

  20. #100
    Bishop10
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Canman24,

    It would appear from your entries that you are a young man who needs to gain valuable experience in life. Don't worry, it will come. I can almost guarentee that I have more time on the ****ter than you have on the job (LOL).

    I love firefighting apparently as much as you do. I have been doing it for 20 years. So I can speak from experience. Name calling and throwing stones is not the way to prove a point. You just look like some young punk who thinks his **** don't stink.

    But one thing canman, you never did answer some of my questions (i.e. the job related questions). Apparently you don't really care about your job or even your family. Or is it something deeper? Like maybe you are an officer in your vollie FD and that makes you "big man on campus" versus you are just a private at your career job, and no one cares about you? I have seen that before, I call it "The big fish in little pond" syndrome.

    And if a "volunteer" saves my life, so be it. As for saving my property, that is what insurance is for. And that I have thought about.(LOL) That is why I have alot of insurance.

    As for the term "Scab", I know what the meaning is. But one question, what would you call a career firefighter from "A/B F.D."
    volunteering at your job, which is a career job? Dedicated or a scab?

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