1. #51
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    par/fire/1627, I have a feeling that the volunteers your making your points on are very unprofessional, but I`ve still got stuff to say.

    THERE IS ONE THING THAT THE VOLLIES WILL SIMPLY NEVER UNDERSTAND. FOR PAID FIREFIGHTERS THIS IS OUR JOB. THIS IS HOW WE FEED OUR FAMILIES, KEEP A ROOF OVER OUR HEAD, AND PAY OUR BILLS.
    What is so difficult to understand about that? It is your job, as volunteers we should all respect that.

    IF A VOLUNTEER SCREWS UP AT A EMERGENCY SCENE OR MAKES A TACTITCAL DECISION THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THE CHIEF'S WAY OF THINKING, WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM? PROBALBLY NOT ALOT,
    Wrong, if a volunteer screws up at a scene, and needs to be disciplined, whatever is neccesary will be done.

    VOLUNTEER DEPARTMENTS CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE PEOPLE, SUSPENSIONS OR DISMISALS DON'T HAPPEN.
    Wrong again, they do happen. It`s a lot better running a department with 1 less guy, than with that guy running around and causing problems.

    IF A PAID FIREFIGHTER MAKES A MISTAKE HE HAS TO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT. THAT MAY MEAN SUSPENSION OR GETTING FIRED. THEN THEY MUST WORRY ABOUT HOW TO PAY THE MORTGAGE AND HOW TO FEED THEIR KIDS.
    Yes, but suspensions and getting fired don`t happen unless you do something wrong that warrents it. Your not going to get fired for doing something incorrectly at a fire scene. Suspensions are for those who misbehave, not make perfectly human mistakes.

    THE POINT IS THAT WHEN VOLUNTEER FIRE COMPAINES COME ON SCENE AND DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL IS NECESSARY, DESPITE WHAT THE PAID DEPARTMENT HAS ASKED THEM TO DO, THE PAID STAFF MUST SUFFER FOR THE VOLLY MISTAKES.
    It would be sad to see that paid department suffer. If volunteers arrive on scene at your fire, they should listen to your IC, not do what they please. If that`s happening, there are serious command problems with those volunteers.

    Where I live it`s simple, if we go mutual aid to the paid departments, they`ve in charge, no questions asked. Even if we arrive on scene first, it still works that way. If they run mutual aid with us, or they`re called in, we`re in charge no questions asked. They always send their chief which is fine by us. We had a fire a few weeks ago, where we called in extra help from the paid guys. They`re deputy simply commanded the work of his guys, but anything they did, was only because our IC said to do it. If they were to start opening the roof, or stretching lines without our commanding officers permission, there would be serious problems.

    [ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: BFD45 ]

  2. #52
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    par/fire/1627 - if volunteer companies are coming into your area and doing whatever they want and screwing up, etc. - kick them out, or don't invite them in the first place. What's the issue?

    If they are doing this in their own territory, that's their and their community's problem. If you come into their territory, and they give you a dumbass assignment, don't do it. Follow the chain of command, if the order is ridiculous or unsafe, advise command of the unsafe condition, if command still insists, place yourselves out of service and go home.

    Saying things like "Things that the vollies will never understand" is just ridiculous. BFD45 already said it pretty well, so I'll end it here.

    Stay Safe

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    BFD45 AND PA VOLUNTEER: YOU ARE BOTH VERY CORRECT IN ALL YOUR STATEMENTS. I MUST ADMIT THIS IS A LOCAL PROBLEM THAT HAS LEFT A BAD TASTE IN MY MOUTH. THERE ARE GOOD AND BAD DEPARTMENTS BOTH PAID AND VOLUNTEER. IN MY AREA THESE ATTITUDES AND BEHAVIORS DO HAPPEN. MY DEPARTMENT IS NOT PERFECT BY A LONG STRETCH. REPORTING THESE THINGS TO COMMAND DO NO GOOD, AFTERWARDS THE LEADERS OF THE FIRE DEPARTMENT(CAPTAINS AND CHIEFS) EITHER IGNORE THE PROBLEM OR ACTUALLY PROMOTE IT. WHAT IS AN EMPLOYEE TO DO? CAN'T AFFORD TO QUIT, SO GUYS HAVE TO WATCH THEIR BACK AND WORK TO CHANGE THINGS DOWN THE ROAD MAYBE.
    MY MAIN POINT WAS THAT IF YOUR AREA WORKS WELL TOGETHER BE GRATEFUL BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF PLACES WHERE THINGS SIMPLY DON'T FLOW. THIS PROBLEM DIDN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT IS TOOK YEARS TO DEGRADE TO THIS LEVEL. TO THOSE OF YOU OUT THERE ARE WHO HAVE HAD BAD ENCOUTERS WITH A PAID DEPARTMENT, REMEBER THAT THEIR MEAL TICKET IS THE JOB. IT MAY GIVE YOU A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON WHY THEY ACT THE WAY THEY DO.

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    Things are different all over.We suspended a guy onm y vollie dept that was a career guy.He was in violation of our rules.We have also suspended many others.Our dept follows the rules to the letter.but if it is a minor infraction the chief will talk to you first.If no improvement then see ya.But par keep tryin to change the climate.See if you can get your IAFF to help o get a group of the guys together to try to effect a change. Good luck.

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    ok doc the ignorance is the fact that you lumped a lot of vollies together.Our dept is a very hands on training intense dept.We run more calls out of our station than in order from east to west of the full time depts,the entire 3 stations of dept a 2 stations of dept b and 2 stations of dept c.We are not slamming anyone here nor are we saying we are better.But give us some credit before you go lumping everyone into one big group.I know there are vollie depts that see maybe 31 fire calls a year,but if in their town it is their call(sorry just the rules here)
    And to batt 66 tough luck.You know there are a lot of career guys that are also vollies.Look in firehouse at some of the author bios of the articles.Paul Hashagen who does the Rekindles articles every month is on Rescue 1 FDNY and Port Chester Volly dept.(last I knew if wrong tie me up and throw me into a room of cute naked FEMALE nurses )There was also the story of teh FDNY funeral where the FF's vollie company carried his casket.Now lets all get along.

  6. #56
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    par/fire/1627, good luck sorting these problems out.

  7. #57
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    par/fire/1627 - thanks for the explanation. Good luck working things out.

    Stay Safe

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    I am not sure If my position as a auxillary firefighter lets me participate or not but I wanted to add my two axes worth.

    I think the Career departments have more opptunity to become better trained due to the fact that they are at the hall for a full shift and are a captive audiance for a training minded department. Keeping that in mind the Auxillary / Volly departments that are also training minded can meet the level that the career depts reach. The level of competance of the IC on the fireground will be a direct result of training and experience. The object is to put out the fire in the quickest, safest way possible. Vol or Career can perform the same function with the same experience and training. The more experienced officer should lend his/her knowledge to the less experienced and that way the objective is met without a debate on who is better.

    thanks for hearing me out
    Robby

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    par/fire/1627:
    IF A VOLUNTEER SCREWS UP AT A EMERGENCY SCENE OR MAKES A TACTITCAL DECISION THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THE CHIEF'S WAY OF THINKING, WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM? PROBALBLY NOT ALOT, VOLUNTEER DEPARTMENTS CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE PEOPLE, SUSPENSIONS OR DISMISALS DON'T HAPPEN. EVEN IF THAY DID GET KICKED OFF, THEY DON'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE HOUSE PAYMENT OR THE GROCERY BILLS GETTING PAID.
    IF A PAID FIREFIGHTER MAKES A MISTAKE HE HAS TO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT. THAT MAY MEAN SUSPENSION OR GETTING FIRED. THEN THEY MUST WORRY ABOUT HOW TO PAY THE MORTGAGE AND HOW TO FEED THEIR KIDS.
    I DON'T KNOW ANY VOLUNTEERS THAT WOULD STAND BY AND WATCH THEIR PAYING JOBS BE TAKEN OVER BY SOMEONE DOING IT FOR FREE. THE POINT IS THAT WHEN VOLUNTEER FIRE COMPAINES COME ON SCENE AND DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL IS NECESSARY, DESPITE WHAT THE PAID DEPARTMENT HAS ASKED THEM TO DO, THE PAID STAFF MUST SUFFER FOR THE VOLLY MISTAKES.

    I'm sorry, guys. I can't sit back and read this malarkey any longer without putting in my two-cents worth. And I won't Bore with training and Qual. card resume suffice it to say I've been on both sides and am now a Volunteer CHIEF!!

    As for the reprocusions of actions here, they are the same for us as they are for the Paid departments in the nearby cities and we have an average of 3 minute roll-out times for any incident we are called to can you say that you can get any apparatis out the door in 3 or less even sitting in the office?? I have standards to follow that are rival to 1710 and have had them since before you were probably even a glimmer in daddy's eye.

    If some kid on a fire sene decided to countermand me or my IC in my Fire district whether Paid (profesional?) or Volunteer he'd be removed from my scene under his own power or not. This is not to be taken as a "That Dumb Cook" statement, it's just fact as the District Fire Chief I have an obligation to protect life and property within said district and I will do so utilizing any and all needed resourses at my disposal.

    As for the loss of revenue you Might accrue perhaps you should look into a Volunteer Hall sometime. I have a very dedicated TEAM, that is around the station as much as 5 days a week in their off-time to study train for the possibilty of calls requireing something extra. I've been a paid man and now I volunteer because the county that I'm in WILL NOT support even one paid/pampered snot-nosed brat with a god complex.

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    Greetings,

    HHVFD2, you should tone down your reply just alittle.
    Most of us "professional"(career/paid) firefighters are not, as you quote, "pampered snot-nosed brat with a god complex". Alot of volunteers could be called the same thing. This topic did not start out as this, it was a question about taking orders from volunteers. Which you barely touch upon.

    How can you, who is a volunteer, let alone a Chief, call yourself "professional"? Comments like that are not acting professional, they just show your ignorance. Maybe your digust for career firefighters is from the fact that you use to be one. And to dig deeper, maybe you were fired, laid off, or even quit because you could not handle it............who know, who cares.

    As for the "NFPA 1710" thing you mentioned. It is great that your department goes to great lengths to rival 1710. But have you even read 1710? How about 1720 which applies the Volunteer service? And as for response times, my job, we get out of the door in under a minute once dispatched, while sitting in the office.

    As for your great team, how old is your crew? Do they have families to take care of? I remember when I use to vollie years ago, no one would jeopordize there job to go on runs. Usually kids would have to take the runs because they were the only ones around during the day because they didn't work. So don't go slamming a career guy because of his concern for his job and putting food on the table for his family.

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    I think what some of you may be forgetting is that this isn't about that fact that this is your job .... or that you are doing this because you enjoy it .... The Fire Service is about people's lives. And the people the Fire Service exists for is the people you serve.

    This isn't about any one of us, this is about the service we are providing. If you are not concerned about what you are doing, and taking pride in what you are doing, then you should just leave.

    This applies to career, volunteer, per-diem, whatever.

    Tom
    The Fire Service ... where there is a right way, a wrong way, the Chief's way, the Deputy's way, the Captain's way, the Lieutenant's way ....

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    Brother Bishop you beat me too it!!!!! My sentiments exactly. Sounds like someone has an axe to grind with the career fire service. I hope he doesn't manage his people with the same tactics as he speaks in here. Belittleing someone only breeds animosity and does absolutely nothing in the way of creating a positive environment to work in. Could this person be the chief due to his skills or a popularity contest? Don't matter either way as attitude like that will leave you with no one to manage or your ***** at the curb. Oh by the way when we are "sitting around the office" we can get out the door in under 60 seconds too, hell we can be on scene in under 3 minutes for a majority of our responses.

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    I'm going to chime in here and agree with FP&LS Guy and dr. inferno ~ Look ladies and gentlemen we are all in this together whether we volunteer to do it such as I do or collect a salary for it. ~ We need to drop this "us vs. them" or "them vs. us" attitude and just go out there and get the job done ! As far as who takes orders from whom ? thats pretty simple....Who evers local the Fire is in {Career Department or Volunteer Department} holds the command. Meaning that if the fire is in the Career Local the Volunteers report to to the Career I.C. and take orders from there and if the Fire is in Volunteer Local the Career Staff including chief officers {If they respond} report to to the Volunteer I.C. and take orders from there....Thats that plain and simple and either group that doesn't like it take their fire engine and go home. We are All part of one Family here....THE FIREFIGHTERS OF AMERICA FAMILY....So this fighting back and forth Bull Sh** needs to stop once and for all.....Web-Team ought to shut this thread down it's out of control which I saw begin to happen from the start !

    ***The Opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not reflect those of the Department to which I am a Member ! ***

    Stratford Fire Co. # 1.."Any Job ~ Any Place ~ Any Time"

    Check us Out www.stratfordfire.com

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    I have never posted in here as I am Vol. but I would like to say not all Vol. depts. go out and by new rigs cause they have a scratch. We have mid 70's Macks that aren't gong anywhere for awhile. Paid vs. Vol. it is a stupid arguement, we all fight fire, we all do our best to save lives and property, and how many of you paid guys started as Vol., though I do believe Vol. have one advantage over SOME paid guys as we do it cause we love to again SOME paid guys do it for money. Though most of us would love to be paid some of us don't have the luxury. Dosen't mean we don't have the talent the skill or the exerience.

    One question though: If a paid guy for some reason quits and decides he wants to be Vol. later in life does that make him any less of a F.F.?

    It seems too me and I may be way off on this, but just like an electrical union, U.A.W. or anything else they are against anything that is not union.

    I don't care who is in charge as long as they treat me with the respect they treat their people with.

    I also would like to thank you for allowing me to post in your forum.
    Proud to be IACOJ Illinois Chapter--Deemed "Crustworthy" Jan, 2003

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    Red face

    Cough-bull****-Cough....I'm better than you, were better than them.... Did the fire get put out? Did a life get saved? Yes? Ok, jobs done, shut-up already. What the hell is the point your trying to get at? There is none, someone ALWAYS has to whine and complain!

  16. #66
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    Regardless of volunteer or paid staff, PROVIDED the person in charge has the qualification/certification to do what they're doing, then let them.

    If a more qualified person comes onto scene, then hand over, or mutually run the scene and learn from each other.

    Theres so many barriers put up by people when it comes to paid vs volunteering- we've all got a job to do. Do it!
    Luke

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    Holy cow. You guys act like a bunch of children on a playground fighting over who gets to play with the ball.

    Volenteers spending money like trees? Sure. Right. My local emergency services unit has a budget of less then 2000.00 a year right now. The local career, metro department, buys a new truck EVERY YEAR. The arguement goes both ways. You can point and whine and say stuff, but the fact of the matter is, it goes both way guys.

    My volenteer fire chief has 20 years of firefighting experiance. My career chief has 25+ years of experiance on the fire ground. Who would I want to command a fire scene? Either! They're both firefighters, both have gone to the same fire classes, both have the same certifications as required by state policy, both are old farts who can grunt and point at the burning building and say "FIRE!".

    Grow up, yeesh. The toy ball is -mine-!

  18. #68
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    This debate will never be settled, In my opinion the problem is that most volunteer firefighters have no idea what it is like to work in a large professional fire dept in an urban setting. So they relate the paid argument instead to the small sub-urban paid or composite depts in their area. To them, they seem to do a similar job so they resent any implied feelings of superiority put forth by these paid firefighters. As for the reaction of many paid firefighters when they read here there are situations out there where Volunteers can be in command of paid firefighters, well you may excuse their incredulity if you realize that in many cases a less then active volunteer might have to go 20 years before amassing the experience a Professional F/F with an urban Dept might get in one.

  19. #69
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    My, my, my.... how the brotherhood of fire fighters divides when it comes to who's in charge. In my area, we have a standardized SOP about this issue. It states:

    "Whenever a company from a neighboring district is summoned to the mutual aide of another, the absolute incident commander shall be an officer from the district which requested assistance."

    And just in case you are not familiar with Greene County, Ohio, only 2 out of 14 districts are fully paid, 1 is paid plus part-time, and the other 11 departments are part-time with volunteers. So as you can see, such an occurance is very common.

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    Engine 1321 it works the same way in my FD. But we dont usually run w/ the career FD's. They will call other career from farther away than call a VFD. We responded once, when an airliner took a nose dive in the city. I guess they just needed all those rescue tools the we have. But to quote a career Captain I met at the NYS Fire Academy "Firefighters are like plumbers, there are some good ones and some bad ones."
    Stephen J Bourassa
    Latham FD (NY)
    member since 1969
    challenge competitor since 1993

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    Cool

    What ever happened with "firefighter?" That's what we do and that's what we are. It all depends on the person and not the $$$$. You career guys, most of you were volunteers at one point. You volunteer guys, you fight the fire right? I lived in a county in Florida where there was a big problem with career vs volunteer. That career department was volunteer for many years and only a few years ago went paid. All those members who were picked up to the paid force all became total jerks. Firehouse I believe shouldn't even have the Career/Paid and Volunteer sections. That is not helping the battle here at all. Who ever made the statement of beating you chest, and what a good job you for free or what not needs to stop beating his chest. Yes this is a career/paid forum, but it has gone sour like most things. If you all honestly have problems with it, then do your communities a favor and get out of the fire business. If you only care about the pay check or the free service you offer over getting paid then you really got to spend some time reflecting why you are in the bizz still. I remember in EMT they said get out of the biz if you were burning out or were not providing your 110% care for the patient. If you're not giving your all for you community, god I hope you're not in mine. I love my city and its poor drivers and I provide them with the best my team and myself can.

    [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: FF139Engine12 ]

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    Red face

    Wow....
    I sure hope the public doesn't read this forum.
    I remember taking my standards class, no one there asked if anyone involved was a Vol. or paid firefighter. I didn't see different goals or tasks set up with signs that said vol. or paid on it. Last year at a meeting on the state level for IC no one asked are you a vol. or paid officer. Hmm maybe the level of training and experience could have something to do with who should be in charge. To step back, look at the situation and make and informed decision at how it should be attacked or not to attack ???
    Professional is designated by the way you perform your duties, work with others, and accomplish your goals. At true professional knows when to step back and allow a more qualified person to take charge and not look at it as a personal insult. Take your time and learn from that person so that you may be the more qualified officer in the future. There are several firefighters in this forum that if in my command would never make it up the ladder of officer training if I was aware of these ego's and mental blocks about the fact that someone receives a paycheck therefore they are more qualified to make a decision. Your thinking may just get one of your people or yourself killed someday. I personally will invite the input from any qualified person at the scene and then make my decision from that point, when I have all the information. I surely would never discredit the informed opinion of a vol. officer or specialist just because they did not receive a paycheck. Hopefully with maturity and experience you too will become a "professional" but some of the opinions expressed here surely do fall short of that definition. Your unwillingness to work with others in the field due to monetary retribution is definitely a shortfall in your character. If you respond to a mutual aid situation and bring this attitude with you, then you would most likely do a better job by refusing to respond. The citizen or community that needs your help will definitely not be getting a full commitment by yourself or the people you lead into the situation if you already are predisposed to this way of thinking on your way into the call.
    The comments made about discipline and lack of it in a Vol. dept as compared to a paid department are also obviously the remarks made by and ignorant person as well. In today’s world of liability and lawsuits no one is exempt from retaliation from a person that feels you did not do everything within your power to due your duty to protect either their property or them selves. The courts don't care if you are paid or Vol. either.
    I understand this is a great country, and yes you are more then welcome to your opinions and idea's but please leave them in the locker when you start your shift. If you experience a situation that you feel could be handled in a safer, more effective manor then speak with the person in charge, but spare other firefighters from your misinformed prejudice opinions and maybe open your eyes and ears. You may just find you will be a better firefighter and really can call yourself a professional without dragging us all down with you.

  23. #73
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    [quote] Wow....
    I sure hope the public doesn't read this forum.



    Ding, Ding, Ding..... We have a winner!!! Someone who realized that this mindless bantering back and forth on a debate that will never be settled and more importantly that the fire doesn't care about does nothing but hurt our image to the public who is free to read this nonsense at anytime. Yes, the same public who's tax dollars pay the salaries for the career guys and buy the "$900,000" ladder truck that someone accused the vollies of getting.

    Let it go!! Did we learn nothing on 9-11?? Did we not learn that regardless of FF (career or vol.), accountant, stock broker or tourist we can all be wiped out by one f'ing wacko!

  24. #74
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    HHVFD2:
    I work for a strictly 100% paid department and we are enroute with in a minute of dipatch about 95% of the time. We have to be and yes it is possible. So I don't know where you are coming up with it is hard to go enroute with in 3 minutes. Because it gets done every single day.

    And the thing with vollies and career on fire scenes.... first of all, if you are on a vollies fire scene and and another department,( we will call them department"X") whether it is paid or volunteer comes to help you out. The person in charge of department "X" is ultimately responsible for his own men. So he needs to decide what is safe and not safe for his men.

    If the incident commander of the scene tells department "X" to ventilate on a roof that is unstable, department "X"'s commander has every right to say "NO, WE WILL NOT VENT" and should. But should tell the IC his reasons for doing so.

    This may or may not be helpful at all, but I tried. God Bless and be safe to you all.
    IAFF Local 2270

  25. #75
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    This is like beating a dead horse...the first few wacks may be theraputic but after a while all you get is tired. This post has been on here since June...LET IT GO...

    FyredUp
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