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  1. #41
    Forum Member PAVolunteer's Avatar
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    Dr. Inferno, if this isn't such a hard concept to grasp, then why can't you grasp jurisdiction? If the volunteers call in the paid guys, then the volunteers have command. If the paid guys call in the volunteers, then the paid guys have command. It's real simple, if you get an order from command, whether it's paid or volunteer command, and it's gonna get you killed, you don't do it. Otherwise, follow command's authority.

    Here's a scenario, what if the volunteer officer in command is also a 30 year paid guy in the neighboring city. Then what do you do? Do you get a resume from who ever is running command before you decide whether or not you will listen to them? There are plenty of volunteers who take the volunteer fire service, and the training that goes along with it, much more seriously than some paid guys who are just doing it for a paycheck. Before I get my head ripped off, the paid guys who are like that are in the minority, but they are there.

    When we go into the city, we listen to the paid guys. When the paid guys come out of the city, they listen to us. It works for them. It works for us. Everyone's happy.

    It ain't rocket science, figure it out.

    Stay Safe


  2. #42
    IACOJ Agitator Adze39's Avatar
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    The Authority Having Jurisdiction is in charge. The end. If the AHJ happens to be a volunteer organization then so be it, they are in charge unless they give up command. And that works the opposite way too, if a volunteer department assists a career department. All this "well, I'm career so I don't have to listen to a volunteer" and "well, I'm a volunteer so I don't have to listen to a career" is just an asinine mindset.

    I've taken classes filled with both career and volunteer personnel. These classes were taught by both career and volunteer firefighters. Noone said "I'm not going to listen to what he taught because he's a career/volunteer firefighter and I am a volunteer/career firefighter." If group A is good enough to teach group B, then why can't group A take orders from group B on the fireground?

    Bishop: ISO ratings do go up to a 10. "A Class 10 indicates no creditable fire protection is available within 5 miles." ("Your Next ISO Rating"; page 3; updated October 15, 2001)

    The ratings that Lovelock quoted are straight out of the manual that Larry Stevens wrote. (You can find it at www.isoslayer.com, called "Your Next ISO Rating", page 4 has the chart)
    IACOJ Agitator
    Fightin' Da Man Since '78!

  3. #43
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    Dr inferno enough!You show your ignorance in your last post.My chief(god forbid a volly chief at that) knows the same as the career guys in the neighboring depts!If not more than!We train to the IFSTA standards and are you ready for this mr cocky?We can walk in and challenge the Firefighter II test with our training!So before you go off half cocked I suggest you get a grip!We should be working together but God forbid we do that.Grow up and get to know those departments around you.You might be suprised to find out that some of their guys know more than you.

  4. #44
    Forum Member DrInferno's Avatar
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    Truckie ladder co 147:To begin not in any of my posts do I defame the volunteer fire service. I believe if you read my first post I even mention that I have no problems with the volunteer service and even have friends in volunteer departments. I'm sorry if you find my view offensive but my understanding of the selection of officers can very much be a popularity contest and that in itself seems an accident waiting to happen. As for getting to know the neighbouring departments I do know them and have created working relationships with them, but they are under direction of paid personnel so we do not have this problem. Before my department became full time (24 hour staffing)it was structured that a career man was higher in rank even if a volunteer had more seniority. Before you go off on this it was because the career staff had regular training and drills while the volunteer staff had training if they chose to attend, plus the amount of time they were called in was limited so they could of had 10 years of seniority but only may have attended a handful of incidents to garner any experience anyway. As for my ignorance I'm ignorant as to where there is any ignorance in my last post?

  5. #45
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    Why dont you "VOLLIES" go back to the "VOLLIE" posts so we union brothers can talk smack about ya? No hard feelings but it seems as theres more of you in the paid/ career section than there are of us.

  6. #46
    Forum Member PAVolunteer's Avatar
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    EKUK, get used to it. There are more of us everywhere ... and some of us actually know what we're doing. If you want to have an intelligent debate, both sides of the story must be represented. Otherwise, it ain't much of a debate now is it?

    Stay Safe

  7. #47
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    I too have been involved with a career department {Paid Per-diem for five years} and with various volunteer departments for almost 12 years. I can sum this up pretty simply. If the first arriving officer is a volunteer he/she commands the scene until relieved by a higher ranking officer {if any exist} The same applies on the Career Side. Example: If I'm a Volunteer Chief responding in my town that is either served by career personnel to suppliment my volunteers or the first in mutial aid company happens to be all career the command chain is simple ~ I'm in charge..My town my fire...I give the orders ~ Right - wrong - good - bad- or in-diffrent If the Career company can't or doesn't want to follow orders just because I work Full time at the Hardware Store they can pack up and go home. The same applies if I am a Career Captain and a Volunteer Lieutenant shows up and trys to run the scene...Wrong I am the higher ranking officer and that Volunteer Lieutenant can go home. See where I'm going with this ? The highest ranking department official of that particular community is in charge no matter if they're career or volunteer there should be no question or argument to this.
    ***The Opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not reflect those of the Department to which I am a Member ! ***

    Stratford Fire Co. # 1.."Any Job ~ Any Place ~ Any Time"

    Check us Out www.stratfordfire.com

  8. #48
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    Just to add my thoughts on the matter, I know what I have done to obtain my rank,exams, study, years of service. Yet what are the REQUIREMENTS for a volounteer f/f to attain rank, in Australia it is only to be the most popular with his/her crew. We have Mutual Aid Agreements in place but these dont always work, the same with common sense, it doesnt always get used. some volounteers I have encountered and worked with have a chip on their shoulder and wont recognise my experience and expertise and it doesnt matter what is said they wont listen on principal.
    I feel this has been a problem for a long time and will remain a problem long after I am gone.


    Chris

  9. #49
    Forum Member FyredUp's Avatar
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    How long will this meaningless debate go on?

    If you go into a community on mutual aid that community owns the incident, period. No mutual aid company can take that jurisdiction away. And only a fool would relinquish command in his own community. After all that home town commander will be held ultimately responsible for what happened at that incident. Now, that is not to say that you won't seek out advice from people with technical expertise, or more experience.

    I am a career firefighter in a medium sized city. We run mutual aid with a few volly FD's here and whoever's community it is it is their incident. Of course our duty chief has the right to withdraw our FF's if something is happening that may place them in harms way unneccessarily. But you know what...we have that same option when we mutual aid with the neighboring paid FD's.

    I am a volunteer fire chief in the community I live in. It is far enough away where my being a volly doesn't have a chance of my FD responding into the city I work in. Believe me, if a fire department came into my community mutual aid and tried to either take over or refuse to follow orders they would be told they are no longer required and that they should leave...immediately. Again I will listen to and seek out advice from those with more expertise than me, but I will not give up my command, because I can't give up my liability.

    Perhaps those of you who don't want to listen to I.C.'s that are vollies should get your communities to drop out of mutual aid agreements and go it alone. Then the issue never would come up. Sounds kind of ridiculous doesn't it?

    Take care and stay safe,

    Fyredup
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

  10. #50
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    THERE IS ONE THING THAT THE VOLLIES WILL SIMPLY NEVER UNDERSTAND. FOR PAID FIREFIGHTERS THIS IS OUR JOB. THIS IS HOW WE FEED OUR FAMILIES, KEEP A ROOF OVER OUR HEAD, AND PAY OUR BILLS. IF A VOLUNTEER SCREWS UP AT A EMERGENCY SCENE OR MAKES A TACTITCAL DECISION THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THE CHIEF'S WAY OF THINKING, WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM? PROBALBLY NOT ALOT, VOLUNTEER DEPARTMENTS CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE PEOPLE, SUSPENSIONS OR DISMISALS DON'T HAPPEN. EVEN IF THAY DID GET KICKED OFF, THEY DON'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE HOUSE PAYMENT OR THE GROCERY BILLS GETTING PAID.
    IF A PAID FIREFIGHTER MAKES A MISTAKE HE HAS TO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT. THAT MAY MEAN SUSPENSION OR GETTING FIRED. THEN THEY MUST WORRY ABOUT HOW TO PAY THE MORTGAGE AND HOW TO FEED THEIR KIDS.
    I DON'T KNOW ANY VOLUNTEERS THAT WOULD STAND BY AND WATCH THEIR PAYING JOBS BE TAKEN OVER BY SOMEONE DOING IT FOR FREE. THE POINT IS THAT WHEN VOLUNTEER FIRE COMPAINES COME ON SCENE AND DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL IS NECESSARY, DESPITE WHAT THE PAID DEPARTMENT HAS ASKED THEM TO DO, THE PAID STAFF MUST SUFFER FOR THE VOLLY MISTAKES.

  11. #51
    Senior Member BFD196's Avatar
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    par/fire/1627, I have a feeling that the volunteers your making your points on are very unprofessional, but I`ve still got stuff to say.

    THERE IS ONE THING THAT THE VOLLIES WILL SIMPLY NEVER UNDERSTAND. FOR PAID FIREFIGHTERS THIS IS OUR JOB. THIS IS HOW WE FEED OUR FAMILIES, KEEP A ROOF OVER OUR HEAD, AND PAY OUR BILLS.
    What is so difficult to understand about that? It is your job, as volunteers we should all respect that.

    IF A VOLUNTEER SCREWS UP AT A EMERGENCY SCENE OR MAKES A TACTITCAL DECISION THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THE CHIEF'S WAY OF THINKING, WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM? PROBALBLY NOT ALOT,
    Wrong, if a volunteer screws up at a scene, and needs to be disciplined, whatever is neccesary will be done.

    VOLUNTEER DEPARTMENTS CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE PEOPLE, SUSPENSIONS OR DISMISALS DON'T HAPPEN.
    Wrong again, they do happen. It`s a lot better running a department with 1 less guy, than with that guy running around and causing problems.

    IF A PAID FIREFIGHTER MAKES A MISTAKE HE HAS TO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT. THAT MAY MEAN SUSPENSION OR GETTING FIRED. THEN THEY MUST WORRY ABOUT HOW TO PAY THE MORTGAGE AND HOW TO FEED THEIR KIDS.
    Yes, but suspensions and getting fired don`t happen unless you do something wrong that warrents it. Your not going to get fired for doing something incorrectly at a fire scene. Suspensions are for those who misbehave, not make perfectly human mistakes.

    THE POINT IS THAT WHEN VOLUNTEER FIRE COMPAINES COME ON SCENE AND DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL IS NECESSARY, DESPITE WHAT THE PAID DEPARTMENT HAS ASKED THEM TO DO, THE PAID STAFF MUST SUFFER FOR THE VOLLY MISTAKES.
    It would be sad to see that paid department suffer. If volunteers arrive on scene at your fire, they should listen to your IC, not do what they please. If that`s happening, there are serious command problems with those volunteers.

    Where I live it`s simple, if we go mutual aid to the paid departments, they`ve in charge, no questions asked. Even if we arrive on scene first, it still works that way. If they run mutual aid with us, or they`re called in, we`re in charge no questions asked. They always send their chief which is fine by us. We had a fire a few weeks ago, where we called in extra help from the paid guys. They`re deputy simply commanded the work of his guys, but anything they did, was only because our IC said to do it. If they were to start opening the roof, or stretching lines without our commanding officers permission, there would be serious problems.

    [ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: BFD45 ]

  12. #52
    Forum Member PAVolunteer's Avatar
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    par/fire/1627 - if volunteer companies are coming into your area and doing whatever they want and screwing up, etc. - kick them out, or don't invite them in the first place. What's the issue?

    If they are doing this in their own territory, that's their and their community's problem. If you come into their territory, and they give you a dumbass assignment, don't do it. Follow the chain of command, if the order is ridiculous or unsafe, advise command of the unsafe condition, if command still insists, place yourselves out of service and go home.

    Saying things like "Things that the vollies will never understand" is just ridiculous. BFD45 already said it pretty well, so I'll end it here.

    Stay Safe

  13. #53
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    BFD45 AND PA VOLUNTEER: YOU ARE BOTH VERY CORRECT IN ALL YOUR STATEMENTS. I MUST ADMIT THIS IS A LOCAL PROBLEM THAT HAS LEFT A BAD TASTE IN MY MOUTH. THERE ARE GOOD AND BAD DEPARTMENTS BOTH PAID AND VOLUNTEER. IN MY AREA THESE ATTITUDES AND BEHAVIORS DO HAPPEN. MY DEPARTMENT IS NOT PERFECT BY A LONG STRETCH. REPORTING THESE THINGS TO COMMAND DO NO GOOD, AFTERWARDS THE LEADERS OF THE FIRE DEPARTMENT(CAPTAINS AND CHIEFS) EITHER IGNORE THE PROBLEM OR ACTUALLY PROMOTE IT. WHAT IS AN EMPLOYEE TO DO? CAN'T AFFORD TO QUIT, SO GUYS HAVE TO WATCH THEIR BACK AND WORK TO CHANGE THINGS DOWN THE ROAD MAYBE.
    MY MAIN POINT WAS THAT IF YOUR AREA WORKS WELL TOGETHER BE GRATEFUL BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF PLACES WHERE THINGS SIMPLY DON'T FLOW. THIS PROBLEM DIDN'T HAPPEN OVERNIGHT IS TOOK YEARS TO DEGRADE TO THIS LEVEL. TO THOSE OF YOU OUT THERE ARE WHO HAVE HAD BAD ENCOUTERS WITH A PAID DEPARTMENT, REMEBER THAT THEIR MEAL TICKET IS THE JOB. IT MAY GIVE YOU A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON WHY THEY ACT THE WAY THEY DO.

  14. #54
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    Things are different all over.We suspended a guy onm y vollie dept that was a career guy.He was in violation of our rules.We have also suspended many others.Our dept follows the rules to the letter.but if it is a minor infraction the chief will talk to you first.If no improvement then see ya.But par keep tryin to change the climate.See if you can get your IAFF to help o get a group of the guys together to try to effect a change. Good luck.

  15. #55
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    ok doc the ignorance is the fact that you lumped a lot of vollies together.Our dept is a very hands on training intense dept.We run more calls out of our station than in order from east to west of the full time depts,the entire 3 stations of dept a 2 stations of dept b and 2 stations of dept c.We are not slamming anyone here nor are we saying we are better.But give us some credit before you go lumping everyone into one big group.I know there are vollie depts that see maybe 31 fire calls a year,but if in their town it is their call(sorry just the rules here)
    And to batt 66 tough luck.You know there are a lot of career guys that are also vollies.Look in firehouse at some of the author bios of the articles.Paul Hashagen who does the Rekindles articles every month is on Rescue 1 FDNY and Port Chester Volly dept.(last I knew if wrong tie me up and throw me into a room of cute naked FEMALE nurses )There was also the story of teh FDNY funeral where the FF's vollie company carried his casket.Now lets all get along.

  16. #56
    Senior Member BFD196's Avatar
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    par/fire/1627, good luck sorting these problems out.

  17. #57
    Forum Member PAVolunteer's Avatar
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    par/fire/1627 - thanks for the explanation. Good luck working things out.

    Stay Safe

  18. #58
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    I am not sure If my position as a auxillary firefighter lets me participate or not but I wanted to add my two axes worth.

    I think the Career departments have more opptunity to become better trained due to the fact that they are at the hall for a full shift and are a captive audiance for a training minded department. Keeping that in mind the Auxillary / Volly departments that are also training minded can meet the level that the career depts reach. The level of competance of the IC on the fireground will be a direct result of training and experience. The object is to put out the fire in the quickest, safest way possible. Vol or Career can perform the same function with the same experience and training. The more experienced officer should lend his/her knowledge to the less experienced and that way the objective is met without a debate on who is better.

    thanks for hearing me out
    Robby

  19. #59
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    par/fire/1627:
    IF A VOLUNTEER SCREWS UP AT A EMERGENCY SCENE OR MAKES A TACTITCAL DECISION THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH THE CHIEF'S WAY OF THINKING, WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM? PROBALBLY NOT ALOT, VOLUNTEER DEPARTMENTS CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE PEOPLE, SUSPENSIONS OR DISMISALS DON'T HAPPEN. EVEN IF THAY DID GET KICKED OFF, THEY DON'T NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE HOUSE PAYMENT OR THE GROCERY BILLS GETTING PAID.
    IF A PAID FIREFIGHTER MAKES A MISTAKE HE HAS TO SUFFER THE PUNISHMENT. THAT MAY MEAN SUSPENSION OR GETTING FIRED. THEN THEY MUST WORRY ABOUT HOW TO PAY THE MORTGAGE AND HOW TO FEED THEIR KIDS.
    I DON'T KNOW ANY VOLUNTEERS THAT WOULD STAND BY AND WATCH THEIR PAYING JOBS BE TAKEN OVER BY SOMEONE DOING IT FOR FREE. THE POINT IS THAT WHEN VOLUNTEER FIRE COMPAINES COME ON SCENE AND DO WHATEVER THEY FEEL IS NECESSARY, DESPITE WHAT THE PAID DEPARTMENT HAS ASKED THEM TO DO, THE PAID STAFF MUST SUFFER FOR THE VOLLY MISTAKES.

    I'm sorry, guys. I can't sit back and read this malarkey any longer without putting in my two-cents worth. And I won't Bore with training and Qual. card resume suffice it to say I've been on both sides and am now a Volunteer CHIEF!!

    As for the reprocusions of actions here, they are the same for us as they are for the Paid departments in the nearby cities and we have an average of 3 minute roll-out times for any incident we are called to can you say that you can get any apparatis out the door in 3 or less even sitting in the office?? I have standards to follow that are rival to 1710 and have had them since before you were probably even a glimmer in daddy's eye.

    If some kid on a fire sene decided to countermand me or my IC in my Fire district whether Paid (profesional?) or Volunteer he'd be removed from my scene under his own power or not. This is not to be taken as a "That Dumb Cook" statement, it's just fact as the District Fire Chief I have an obligation to protect life and property within said district and I will do so utilizing any and all needed resourses at my disposal.

    As for the loss of revenue you Might accrue perhaps you should look into a Volunteer Hall sometime. I have a very dedicated TEAM, that is around the station as much as 5 days a week in their off-time to study train for the possibilty of calls requireing something extra. I've been a paid man and now I volunteer because the county that I'm in WILL NOT support even one paid/pampered snot-nosed brat with a god complex.

  20. #60
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    Greetings,

    HHVFD2, you should tone down your reply just alittle.
    Most of us "professional"(career/paid) firefighters are not, as you quote, "pampered snot-nosed brat with a god complex". Alot of volunteers could be called the same thing. This topic did not start out as this, it was a question about taking orders from volunteers. Which you barely touch upon.

    How can you, who is a volunteer, let alone a Chief, call yourself "professional"? Comments like that are not acting professional, they just show your ignorance. Maybe your digust for career firefighters is from the fact that you use to be one. And to dig deeper, maybe you were fired, laid off, or even quit because you could not handle it............who know, who cares.

    As for the "NFPA 1710" thing you mentioned. It is great that your department goes to great lengths to rival 1710. But have you even read 1710? How about 1720 which applies the Volunteer service? And as for response times, my job, we get out of the door in under a minute once dispatched, while sitting in the office.

    As for your great team, how old is your crew? Do they have families to take care of? I remember when I use to vollie years ago, no one would jeopordize there job to go on runs. Usually kids would have to take the runs because they were the only ones around during the day because they didn't work. So don't go slamming a career guy because of his concern for his job and putting food on the table for his family.

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