1. #76
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    Wow!!

    I didnt realize that career FF's and volunteer FF's were suposed to hate each other!!!
    Mark Carlson


    firefighter's find 'em hot and leave 'em wet!

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    I didn't realize Volunteers never understood the difference

  3. #78
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    What difference?

    Stay Safe

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    I rest my case

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    Smoke286:

    What was your point? And nice non-answer to the simple question asked.

    By the way I am a career FF in a medium sized city and a volly where I live. To me the only difference is the pay. Being professional has nothing to do with geting a paycheck and everything to do with how you approach the job. I know career FF who think a tough day is when you make them get out of the recliner. I also know volly's who won't go if its "inconvenient". On the other hand I know career FF that go to every class and seminar they can even if they don't get paid and in fact have to pay for the class themselves. On that same note I know vollys that after working 8 or 10 hours still show up for training and also go to those same classes, many times paying themselves.

    The endless squabbles over this topic are becoming pathetic. Work within your system, respect your brothers and sisters both career and volunteer, and get over it.

    FyredUp
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    Fryed Up

    Here is my problem, mostly it seems to be perpetuated by people like yourselves who continue giving mis-information to volunteers who do not understand the difference between a professional fire dept. and a volunteer one. You say you work in a "medium sized city" how big is that? Is it a place where "a tough day is when you make them get out of the recliner" I'll bet a lot of us would like to have a tough day like that. I just got home from my last 24 hour shift. I may have gotten 3 hours of sleep. I am not trying to blow my owm horn here. I get paid a fair wage for what I do. I have no problem with volunteer's, I was one myself, and I realize that in some situations they serve a useful purpose But you and people like you are doing the fire service harm in perpetuating the myth that both are the same. Even the NFPA has given up on that. You cannot compare apples to oranges. And people who claim they are the same, and spread this on to the uninitiated are my problem. Does that explain to you what my problem is?

    [ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: Smoke286 ]


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    smoke 286,

    So you don't sleep much...neither does the volunteer who was out all night fighting a fire and then goes home, showers and goes to work. Fortunately for you and me we have the next day off to recuperate.

    My medium sized city is around 50,000 people. We run aound 5000 calls a year. Perhaps not as busy as you...so maybe my department is suspect in your eyes.

    As far as the NFPA standards 1710 and 1720...I agree that having seperate standards is a maistake, no a BIG mistake. The way I believe it should have been done is to have one standard and make allowances for response time and such for volunteers. As far as training and other qualifiers I believe they should have been identical.

    I don't perpetuate anything. If you can't admit that SOME career FD's are less than professional and SOME volunteer FD's are very professional I feel you live with blinders on. The whole deal is this...we should all provide a professionally trained and qualified FD for our public.

    Can't we just let this die? The answer is there will be no answer as long as there are career and volunteer firefighters who just can't see that we are all firefighters trying to do a job.

    Take care and stay safe,

    FyredUp

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    Well I am a volunteer but when I was scrolling down through I saw it and just had to know. But I know that around here volunteer departments sometimes are called mutual aid with a paid department. Then vise versa. In my opinion whoever is the first department on scene volunteer or not, is in charge. if they call mutual aid from a paid or volunteer department they should still be in charge. We go through as much training as you do to get the title, and we should be repected for that, as you would expect us to respect you.
    Firefighter/EMT Mitch Cowen
    Hose Co. 1 1st Lieutenant
    Randolph Fire Co. Inc

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    [quote]Originally posted by FyredUp:
    This is like beating a dead horse...the first few wacks may be theraputic but after a while all you get is tired. This post has been on here since June...LET IT GO...

    FyredUp




    AMEN TO THAT !!!! ---

    Ultimatley the Fire {Which is what we should be fighting and not each other...NEWS-FLASH !} doesn't care if the man or woman on the end of that tip is getting a pay check or not, It doesn't care if he/she belongs to a union or not. All it cares about is destroying what ever is in it's path and stopping you and me from stopping it. ~ Some Cities and Towns need Career Fire Fighters and to those men and women...GOD BLESS YOU AND THE JOB YOU DO !! I'M BEHIND YOU 100%...But just because you're paid to fight fires and save lives gives you no right to judge the credibility of a Volunteer.

    Some Cities and Towns can not justify a Career Department and must rely on Volunteers and to those men and women...GOD BLESS YOU AND THE JOB YOU DO...But just because you're a Volunteer gives you no right to judge the credibility of a Career Firefighter.

    We all put our gear on the same way...ride the same type of equipment...and fight the same kind of hot,dangerous,and deadly fires,haz-mat incidents,ect..This us vs. them bull sh** needs to stop because when you come right down to it....There is no diffrence.....NONE !


    ***The Opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not reflect those of the Department to which I am a Member ! ***

    Stratford Fire Co. # 1.."Any Job ~ Any Place ~ Any Time"

    Check us Out www.stratfordfire.com

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    I did forget to mention...VOLUNTEERS I AM BEHIND YOU 100% ALSO.....
    ***The Opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not reflect those of the Department to which I am a Member ! ***

    Stratford Fire Co. # 1.."Any Job ~ Any Place ~ Any Time"

    Check us Out www.stratfordfire.com

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    Sure we can let this die, it is a dead issue, until someone comes along and claims that being a volunteer is the same as being a paid professionional firefighter. Which is patently untrue.

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    [quote]Originally posted by Smoke286:
    Sure we can let this die, it is a dead issue, until someone comes along and claims that being a volunteer is the same as being a paid professionional firefighter. Which is patently untrue.


    Nice job, now your going to start another argument. . Your a professional whether your paid, or you volunteer. Though your posts have me going nuts inside, I`ll leave it at that.

    [ 01-19-2002: Message edited by: BFD45 ]


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    [quote]Originally posted by Mitch:
    Well I am a volunteer but when I was scrolling down through I saw it and just had to know. But I know that around here volunteer departments sometimes are called mutual aid with a paid department. Then vise versa. In my opinion whoever is the first department on scene volunteer or not, is in charge. if they call mutual aid from a paid or volunteer department they should still be in charge. We go through as much training as you do to get the title, and we should be repected for that, as you would expect us to respect you.


    I am not disagreeing with you 100%. But I am going to have to disagree with you about the training bit. I have not yet met a volunteer officer yet that has recieved Fire Administration, Legal Aspects, Fire Investigation, HazMat Chenistry, Occupational Health and Safety, Fundamentals of Fire Protection, Fire Protection Systems, Political & Legal Fundamentals of Fire Protection, and Incendiary Fire Analysis & Investigations. Granted, I don't have these qualifications, but I know many at career departments that do. I No volunteer fire department officer that has any. So I am going to have to disagree with the training part that you do as much as career dept's do. Because at many career fire dept's these are REQUIRED to be a officer and or chief officer. FF1 and EVOC just does not cut it.

    everything else you have to say sounds great.

    God Bless and take care.
    IAFF Local 2270

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    kfd26710 it all depends in the area. I know a few volunteer officers in the state of Florida that have so many cert and training hours in it hurts to think about it. Lots of the volunteers around that country who really want to and have the time get the training that they need and want. I for one have the equal training to career fireman at my station. (station is split career/vol) Though none of my training means jack since I moved from Florida to New Jersey, and NJ does not recongnize it. Oh well, just means I got to start from square one again to get my F1 which is a step back from my F2. I'm not quite shure if its a local thing or a state thing here much like in other states, but here you only have to be an F1 for career and F1/F2 for officer. Where I was in FL to even think about career you had to have your F2. Really it is depending on your area for training bars. Neither Career or Volunteer FF can know it all and can always make the right decision regardless to training. Who ever is in command should be able to call the shots and who is ever under his/her command should carry them out. If you don't agree with the scene commander then ask questions or suggest alternate ways. If the commander is volunteer and has career as aid or the other way around, and know he/she is unable to make the decisions hopefully he will relieve command to someone who is able to. Good training shows this. Good training and the right training makes it possible for the officers involved to work things out. It doesn't have to be a power hungry thing or career vs volunteer. If I roll up on scene and I am the officer of my engine (representing my station) and I am the aid to a career eninge I am going to talk to the commander and make sure we have good communication. I will also see if he knows if he has his head screwed on right and not making poor decisions by doing this. Same thing if this were to be switched. I have worked on a few fire (brush/structure) with multiple departments with the mix of career and vol and we never had any problems. Off the fire scene was different as far as relationships went, but we all at least knew we had a job to do. I guess depending where you are in the country will determine this, but I knew just about all the FF in my county down in FL and I knew all the officers. Put them all in the same house and make them all paid or all volunteers, you would still get guys who knew it like the back of their hand and get the guys that still can't even tie their own shoes. Basically saying, some guys go through the training but don't listen while some do. That's on both sides, but regardless to if he/she is volunteer/career and knows what the hell he/she is doing, I would listen. Don't start a fire on the scene that isn't going to be put out with water or foam. Just listen, suggest, or what ever, but don't be jerks about it and don't look the other way. That goes to both Vols and Career FFs. Don't under estimate what volunteers have time to do. Some(vols) have their own business or don't even work or what ever and take more classes/more hours of training then you could ever imagine. Some even take F3 and pretty much got everything done (state wise) before they even make Lt or Captain. I don't know, maybe that one area in Florida is truly blessed. lol Just put that damn fire out and help some one.
    Feet Don't Fail Me Now!

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    Sorry BFD if my posts are causing you any problems. I'm only trying to get people to understand that there are differences between the two avocations. Its just that I hate these blanket statments. "We're all doing the same job"
    things like that. I even realize that you will never change some peoples minds. They live in their own fantasy world. There are in fact volunteers out there who think there is no difference in what they do and ,to take an extreme example what they average FDNY firefighter does. Because , in reality, they have no idea what the job entails, and they have been fed on propaganda posted here,and elsewhere
    that claims, boldly that there is no difference between the two.
    As I have posted previously, if your only experience with paid firefighting is with small sub-urban and composite Depts ,who do infact perform similar functions to their volunteer neighbours, then perhaps then you may have the mistaken idea that all fire Depts basically do the same thing. But anyone in a volunteer fire dept who puffs out his chest and says, we are all the same , I do the same job as a paid firefighter, without the check. Is just plain deceiving himself. Once again there is no comparison between being a volunteer in a rural or sub-urban enviroment, and being a paid professional firefighter in an urban setting. It is two completly different things. I am not trying to say there is anything wrong with being a volunteer firefighter. I was one for 12 years, and I quite enjoyed it. Its just that working as a paid professional firefighter in an urban setting is a totally separate kettle of fish ,as it were. To be truthful it amazes me that so many volunteers have trouble admiting it. I cartainly understood the difference, when i was a volunteer.

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    After reading your post, I see what your saying, and I agree to an extend. I don`t know of many volunteers that do anything like FDNY does, and I do know first hand(well second hand) because a few of our members are FDNY firefighters, so I`ll agree there. But, we are doing the same job, fighting fires, EMS, MVS`s, etc, different departments have just evolved to do it ways taht are best for them.

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    The endless squabbles over this topic are becoming pathetic. Work within your system, respect your brothers and sisters both career and volunteer, and get over it.
    HERE HERE!! Well Said.
    "Professional" is not just a paycheque. It is an attitude. I have seen many paid/professional fire fighters make some awfully stupid mistakes. Yes I have seen some volly's make some to. I have seen paid F/D's unable to figure out Positive Pressure Ventilation, Unable to figure out what Level 2 Staging is. Generally in my area Volunteer fire fighters are as good or better trained/experienced because it is the same fire fighters going to all the calls! I know of a Fire Fighter that was a member for 20 yrs on paid/Career dept and never went to a structure fire.
    IT ALL COMES DOWN TO TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE. IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT JOB PAYS FOR THE FOOD IN YOUR BELLY AND THE ROOF YOU SLEEP UNDER.

    Now ya did it, Some one got me going on this rant... HAve a Great Day.
    Some days yer the fire hydrant and some days yer the dog.

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    I have only been taking part in this topic for acouple of days and I think its redundant. But I must say one last thing... sure you say we are not the same, maybe we aren't, maybe we are. But sometimes you have to let things go, drop all these f***ing barriers and work with each other. This whole thing about brotherood and stuff. Well. I must say that I now think that there are TWO brotherhoods. Because you sir, Mr. Smoke286, you just made me lose respect for some hard working men and women that are paid firemen, because I have never backed one up so I don't know what thier like but I must base my thesis on your attitude. So you can all to go to h*ll until we stop drawing these damn lines! This goes for both sides, just fight the f*cking fire for heaven sakes! There is a simple solution to everything, you must trust your commanding officer. Regardless.
    Firefighter/EMT Mitch Cowen
    Hose Co. 1 1st Lieutenant
    Randolph Fire Co. Inc

  19. #94
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    You know I had a really snappy comeback for smoke 286...but to hell with it. As I stated earlier this is like beating a dead horse. So I will let this go because in reality it just simply doesn't matter.

    Have a nice day,

    FyredUp
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
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    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

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    I started out paid and went vol of my own choice.
    Scenerio: Mrs. Jones house is on fire--- think she give a damn whether or not paid or vol firefighters show up? Her freakin house is on fire for heavens sake!!
    We all go to the same schools and recieve the same training.....what IS the issue here? What, just cuz your paid you're better than a vol.? or just cuz your a vol. you'll do the job better cuz it's something you want to do?
    There are vol ff that are much better than paid and the reverse is also true without saying.

    My depts mutual aid is a paid dept and their chief despises vol ff. But you know what?, when it's time to get it done, we all try to do the best we can, and that's all you can do until this issue is put to rest in the fire service.

    My advice to you, worry about the safety of your brother, Whether he's paid or not! This is surely the last thing on Mrs. Jones mind when she dials 911.

  21. #96
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    Lets see, unless I am a career Firefighter no ones better them me and I am better then anyone else, but if my house is on fire I don't care who shows up as long as someone does (Career VS Volunteer). Do you hear yourselves? Why not just be proud of what you do and do it.

    I would love to have been a career Fire fighter, but I have a bad eye that would not allow me to pass the Philadelphia FD physical in 1975. And even though my Father died in the line of duty in 1963 as Acting Deputy chief of Philadelphia and a career man for 29 years, I still was not allowed in.

    So what did I do, since the Phila FD would not allow me to follow my father foot steps, I became a Volunteer and went to college and got 2 degrees, AA in Fire Science Technology and a BA in Business Administration.

    So now that I have all this education including; certification 1 & 2 from the state of PA as firefighter, Certification in arson investigation, certification as a Building Inspector, extensive schooling in vehicle extrication, hazmate, truck operations, pump operations and numerous other schooling and education. Because I am a Volunteer I am still labeled as someone taking away somebody?s job.

    Not everybody can be a career FF, but that does not make that person any less qualified then those who are. I have 27 years in the fire service and I put my skills and knowledge up against anyone who believes Volunteers are someone that cannot cut it or for what ever reason you may think.

    The last time I checked, I believe we are all here to provide to the same thing and provide service to the community.

    Regarding PA Volunteers estimate of Billions, in savings to the communities of PA, just do the math, 61 counties with the average of 40 departments in each, times $500,000 equals 1.2 billion. Do you think the taxpayers are willing to pick up that tab; I don't think so, now you know why there are Volunteers Departments.

    So if by chance I stop at your station regardless if its career or Volunteer, just acknowledge something, we are trying to do the same thing, but choose to do it differently by definition only.

    Proud to protect my community and America

    [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: wjn48 ]


  22. #97
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    NOW THIS IS INTERESTING A MALE CAT FIGHT! LOL..MEOW!......LOL

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    Ya Know I've been on (callpaid),and strictly volunteer Departments for the past 27yrs,I've also been on volunteer,and Paid Rescue Squads,In fact I was Chief of the volunteer squad,and have been as high as district manager for the full time companys that I worked for I've worked up and down the east coast from maine to virginia,and you still here the same old stuff that I'm reading on this net.It is a never ending scenario,I have Held the position of Line Capt.as well as admin. officer after going up through the ranks I am currently a line Lt. with the company that I'm with in Virginia,I as a volunteer have had more schooling then the Chief of the County who is also a carreer Lt. with a Large municipality with in the area. Also Look at it this way most active call,or volunteer F.F. will work more actual Structure fire calls then you the full timer do to your Shift restraints,For 4yrs straight myself,and the asst.Chief as call F.F. worked more working structure Fires then the busyest shift in the city,as well as other calls that were toned out ,auto extrications,chimmeny fires,rescues,etc:and when we called the volunteers in for mutual aid they would take there orders from the OIC of that scene,and when we called the carreer Guys in for mutual aid they took there orders from the the OIC of that scene unless in both cituations.So Why don't we all just put this decussion to bed,and move on to more important things like serving the public with the Courage,and Pride that we all got into this line of work for,wether VOlunteer,or Paid Call,or Carreer,we all are brothers,working toward the same goal to SERVE,AND Protect,our Resients.That's what We're all about is'nt it? THats the end result!

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    pkrguns, see above agruments as to why its not the same

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    smoke 286 Understand this I can succum,to smoke,and heat,and get burned too,so why is it not the same? Because you get a check either weekly,or bi-weekly,and I don't,is that supposed to make you more Qualified then I,or any other volunteer,dose the fire burn hotter because you get paid,and we don't,or is it the fact that it's all in your head that you think your better then us,step up to my scene any time,and we'll see if the fire starts getting more intense.I will make this statement though,and I don't think there is a vollie,or career Fire Fighter that won't agree even though I'm a Vollie,if someone gets there butt in jam even though they happen to be career (I'll still use my experiance of 27yrs,and lack of knowlege) to bail them out,and I'll bet you this at that point it won't make a whole lot of differance to them, because they will have lived to tell about it. So why don't you get a grip sir,and realize that we're all out there for the same reasons,and yes there are some who are more,and better trained wether Vollie or Career,but that is just a fact of life,and there is not a lot that can be done about it,just to ease your mind sir I think that if you ask most Vollies if they want your job they'll tell you Hell no I'make more money then you do in a year,in most cases the man/women who volunteers do'es it because they like to help people,and serve there community any way they can,and this is there way of doing it.Not for a paycheck be advised that the coments made in this opinion is not to down play the job that the career F.F. do'se,. it is my way of explaining the ignorance of people like smoke 286 displays.I have aiot of very close friends on the career side,on some of the largest,and busiest Departments in the country F.D.N.Y.,B.F.D.etc: So take care my Brothers,and Be Safe.

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