1. #1
    LEES CHIEF
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy If no one volunteered

    WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF NO ONE VOLUNTEERED.????

  2. #2
    e33
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    They would pay somebody to do the job we do for free.

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    The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of any department or organization I belong to.



  3. #3
    chevelle ss
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    If you are talking about fire and ems, then you would have paid depts. It is happening now with ems all over the country.

    ------------------
    chevelle ss

  4. #4
    Fyrebugg41
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Heh, if no one volunteered here, this place would be screwed. There's no way they could afford a paid dept here. They'd hafta have the paid guyz in the city type towns around here pick up our area probably. They'd be running a huge area. Not worth screwing your volunteers over. Most village/town officials don't realize and won't realize how important and CHEAP we are until they lose us.

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    ~*That's why we're here, to help those in need, we're not here for money, fame, or greed..To help those fellow friends, who can't help themselves..We're volunteers because we care, because we want to help, to help others who are in need, not for ourselves*~

  5. #5
    FGFD43
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    In a lot of communities, if no one volunteered, the job wouldn't get done. If you go into some of the small communities out in "the country" and see a rural all vol dept of 20 guys working there butts off having suppers and turkey shoots and anything else they can think of just to keep their used 1971 pumper in operation, you would understand that a LOT of areas do not have the tax base to hire paid men. The reason that these depts were started in the first place was because there was a need in the community and no one could pay to fix it.

    ------------------
    Kevin Sink
    Fair Grove Fire Dept.
    Thomasville, NC USA
    kevinsink@northstate.net


    [This message has been edited by FGFD43 (edited April 19, 2000).]

  6. #6
    Dalmatian90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Let's see...my town has 2 police officers...hmmm, a 2 person fire department now that would be really effective.

    What would happen? In a lot of places:

    -- Anyone who thinks they'd start paying to maintain services at the same level is delusional -- many states still feel the pain from the tax revolts of the 70s.
    -- First Response times and Ambulance times would increase dramatically.
    -- Most fire protection would be limited to simple exposure protection and/or outside operations (my town can not afford 2in/2out staffing -- that would be almost the same payroll as our entire middle school! Let's not even think about 2in/2out AND maintaining a crew to do EMS Transports!)
    -- Most Heavy/Technical rescue capabilities wouldn't exist in rural america.
    -- Fire Prevention & Inspection would drop to nothing...since the personnel paid to do that now would move to operations.
    -- You would have a ton of turnover and very bored firefighters. The state of the craft would decline precipitously. Who is interested in pulling 24 hour shifts when you average, oh, one call every couple of shifts? I have the training and experience a paid person in my town would have -- not as much experience as New York City, more experience than many podunks...but how do you build experience working full time at a station that has, oh, 2 structure fires in a slow year, maybe 8 in active year, including mutual aid runs? And, by the way, since the department is heavily under-staffed, time to attend outside training is nill. Would you want to employees whose level of motivation is such that they don't mind shift after shift of low/no activity?

    Just points to ponder...
    Personnel Opinion: For the vast majority of communities in the US, a regionalized combination organization is best. Even for small stations, having the services of a full time fire marshal, training officers, & command staff of a regional combo would be a good thing. For busier stations, a small career force can handle the small incidents and routine maintenance & record keeping to allow the volunteers better use of their time responding to serious incidents & additional training.
    Matt

  7. #7
    E21
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    they never would have made fire truck

  8. #8
    craig7404
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Our county would be messed up as we have only four paid firefighters in the county seat and non in the other towns or the rural areas. Most people here could not pay higher taxes to support a full time fire department and if that did happen then there would only be enough to support 1 central station so the rural area would not be able to get fire ins and if they could it would be so high so really this county as I see it must have volunteers.

    ------------------
    Good Luck And Be Safe
    Captain
    Craig Lambert
    Harmony Consolidated
    Volunteer Fire Department

  9. #9
    Lt Jim P
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The Idea of Fire Service in this country is a sad state of afairs. God knows we need voly services and that people in rural areas can't afford higher taxes and also that call volume may not require a large highly staffed station. But here's a point, this country spends billions of dollars every year on law enforcement and at lower amounts so do states. When will the fire service come to the forefront? When will this country stop thinking of us as their heros who will always be there when they are in need. But when we are the ones who need many complain that thier taxes will go up a few dollars a year! We all sacrifice and do so for our brothers,neighbors and strangers.Lets go America put your money where its needed protecting person and property. I know call volume may not call for staffed dept.s in all communities but a central station with a handfull of paid FF's Can start the work at a fire scene with the volys arriving as available or make an ems call when noone is around, you can send a bored highly trained FF to save the lives of me or mine anytime!300 years of firefighting in the USA and still over 80% of this the greatest country in the world is held in the arms of common folks who will get up from a holliday dinner or out of bed in the middle of a snow storm, kiss the family and go out and put it all on the line for someone they may but probably will not know. Lets get some, just a little of the money thats waisted each and every year where its needed to the fire services.
    I will always be very proud that I can say I am one of YOU!!!
    Lt. JIM P.

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  10. #10
    LEES CHIEF
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    You said it Lt. Jim. Thank god for VOLUNTEERS. Keep up the good work.
    If you don't who will.

  11. #11
    Chief456-2
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    LT. Jim


    Bravo and well said. Some of the younger generation need to read this.

    Big problem is getting the younger generation involved in voly service. Parents are bring up their kids totally different these days.

    Why work when you don't have to is the motto for most of the younger generation these days.

  12. #12
    pfpchief
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    my town would never pay the freight to have paid men . the next town over did it they hired 9 guys for daytimes the town has 40,000 residents ad a fire district to tax the town for the service . they had limited vols. during the day.we still have people around but its getting harder and harder to recuit guys and retain them . between the fundraising and mand. taining noone wants to give that much time.

  13. #13
    Fireguy57
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Arrow

    If nobody volunteered in my area (Sullivan County, Pa) Pennsylvania's last frontier, there would be no fire companies. The economy is so deprived of any and all money, and they could never afford a paid service. We don't even bill for our service, (fire or ems). Volunteers are very important to the small communities. We bought a surplus of fund rasing shirts that read "Suppose they gave a fire, and nobody came" Support your volunteer firemen. So what if nobody did volunteer? Bye, Bye rural America!

  14. #14
    D.SCHWER
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of any department or organization I belong to.


    I am a volunteer, have been for 25 years in two different communities. I earn a living to pay the bills 12 hours a day. Take the kids to dance class and soccer on weeknights and weekends. I like to think I am, or try to to be, a devoted husband and father, My time is valuable. There are not many people knocking on the fire house door to volunteer, to run into a burning building, pump on someones heart or stand in the middle of the road on a raining night waiting for the power company to repair fallen wires. We all know as volunteer we are a special breed. I will interup a dinner to answer a call for a dwelling or MVA with entrapment knowing it could be my neighbor in need. Will I get up from a dinner or miss my son's soccer game to answer the alarm going off in the corner conveinece store that malfuction 3 or 4 time a month, to be honest I don't think so. Would I take off a day of work in the hope that I will catch a few calls, again I don't think so.

    Why does my son have to dread Monday nights? The answer is that I am not home to watch a hockey or ball game with him because I am training to be prepared when the time comes to retreive a fallen firefighter out of a building on fire.

    If I am willling to devote my spare time to the fire company then why should a fire company/departments impose bylaws that require a member to maintain a minimum percentage of fire calls. Why should a fire company risk losing members to counter productive rules. Again I do not see people knocking down the door to volunteer.

    What is your opinion

    [This message has been edited by D.SCHWER (edited June 15, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by D.SCHWER (edited June 15, 2000).]

  15. #15
    iwood51
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    I'm going to respond to DSchwer's question:

    'If I am willling to devote my spare time to the fire company then why should a fire company/departments impose bylaws that require a member to maintain a minimum percentage of fire calls. Why should a fire company risk losing members to counter productive rules.'

    The reason that the rules are in place are just that. They are rules, they need to be followed and if they aren't someone gets hurt. You may look at it as a question of making whatever you feel like making. I don't think that's good enough. The reason we need to respond to bare minimums is for training purposes. You don't want to go to the BS alarm that rings 3-4 times a month. What happens when it's for real. You need to be able to work with the people on the truck with you and know what the current SOP's are. Maybe equipment is different, maybe the hoselays have been modified, maybe they've put different nozzles on the hoselines. If you don't train and work with these guys on a regular basis, you are a danger to them.


  16. #16
    chevelle ss
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    I am also responding to D.Schwer

    I was a volly for 12 yrs. you have hit on the biggest problem for f/f's between the age's of 25-45 is trying to juggle family and work. My attitude was that family and work came first. In 12 yrs. I missed a total of 3 days work for fire's. The dept. I was on ran about 500 fire calls a year.At this time they don't have enough members and will not throw anyone out for low %.

  17. #17
    jrfemaleff
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post


    If no one volunteered.......
    ... What a rough one.

    I'm not sure what would happen. I do know though that I will NEVER stop volunteering. I am a volunteer firefighter of 4 months now and I can never think of any reason for giving it up. People say that because I am only 16 yrs old and a female, I don't know the true meaning of volunteering. Well, let me tall them something, I truly love my volunteer job and I think that if they say this about me, then maybe they are missing something. Voulunteering comes in all shapes and sizes, ages and abilities, backgrounds and denominations. Thank you to all of you who are volunteers. God bless you for what you do and never stop.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Mallory Hummel
    Jr Firefighter
    Montgomery County Station 74
    "I Am Female Firefighter...Hear Me ROAR!"
    ---------------------------------------------

  18. #18
    Brian Dunlap
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    D SCHWER..Not sure if you are from Erial 8-6
    Or not but if you are....You know how our area is today with people comming out to volunteer...Poor !! I Moved to Blackwood a year ago run with the Squad {87} and see the decline in the people comming out to answer calls let alone comming out to volunteer...I still answer alarms with Stratford although not as active as I once was because of the 4 miles I have to travel to get to the hall but I joined because I wanted to and after I saw what was involved It kind of grew on me...Wouldn't trade this lifestyle for anything after 12 years....The problem in our County is recruitment and retention and some fire companies in our county have a retention problem because they have rules implemented 40-50-60 years ago that now just don't make sense....Getting the younger Generation Involved is tough also because of work and family obligations...I agree with you don't miss quality family time to answer that same alarm 3-4 times a month but remember someone is giving up something to make sure the engines roll to investigate...
    Your Point is a good one any ideas on how to recruit and retain......

  19. #19
    D.SCHWER
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of any department or organization I belong to.

    In response

    To IWOODS51

    Regular training should be mandatory to stay up to date in equipment, techniques and profiency. We can work training into our schedules and I do. I attend 90% of our mandatory drills, annual live burn, CPR, Bloodborns, Driver Training. I've also tried to stay current with mandatory schools, MVA I, ICS-200. My concern is when will volunteer fire company realize that in order to retain members that must work around and with work and family schedules. One way would be duty crews that offer credit for attendence percentage.

    to jrfemaleff

    It is great that at a young age you have recognized the need and choosen to serve your community

    Brian Dunlap

    Yes I'm with Erial, I joined when I was 40.
    I'm the first to give up the pac seat for a younger gun ho member, let themn see action that what keeps them coming back and you need to learn by experience. The main point that your squad takes you when they can get you. My company refuses to revise bylaws that are not in place to effectively retain members. We can have all the training offered, be a paid firefighter somewhere else, but if you don't make your percentage the bylaws says your out

    Everyone keep up the good work your neighbors appreciate it



    [This message has been edited by D.SCHWER (edited June 15, 2000).]

  20. #20
    iwood51
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question

    Okay, I'll bite, what is the minimum percentage that you must maintain? my department structures it as follows

    0-5 years 15%
    6-10 years 12%
    10-20 years 10%
    20+ years 5%

    Even if people fall below they are brought in front of a review board to discuss the reasons before any final decision is made.

    These are not hard numbers to make, especially during brush season when you can make 5-6 calls a day. We run an average of 450-500 fire calls a year so 15% of that is 67-75 calls in the entire year or about 1 call every 5-6 days.

  21. #21
    D.SCHWER
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of any department or organization I belong to.

    IWOOD51

    My company maintains 25% of all fire calls
    EMS calls do not count against you, however if we make an EMS call is is credited.

    When our bylaws were written we were not running 600 calls a year. We now have 3 paid FF on 8-4 M-F and they run calls with our neighbor district paid FFs during the day, which I have no objection to, however it has increased our daytime calls.

    If our percntage drops under 25% for a quarterly period (3 months) we are put on probation and then must maintain 25% over the next three month. If you do not, you are removed from active duty to incative. On inactive you have your gear and pager pulled an are unable to run calls. You can return after 6 months but undergo a 6 month probation of which you can be removed fro any reason including one missed month on percentage.

    My beef is that I and others should have our percntage caculated on the calls during the hours we are not working in my case it would 6am -6pm, that is only fair. For the year thus far I maintained 24%. To add injurty to insult I was not given credit for 30 hours of fire schools during the month of May.

    We are bedroom community of Philadelphia in a township with the one of the highest growth rate in NJ. In the last 5 years we had only 2 new members that moved into our area from Philly and joined out of blue having never been in the fire service before. We have one member's son join. The rest are typically firefighters from other departments.

    We have only 20 members, 2 of which are Jrs. Out of the reamining 18 there are a solid 9 that get above 50%. These are for the most part the single guys that basically do not work and hang at the fire house watching TV, shooting pool, eating and playing video games (it would'nt hurt to watch a training tape every now and then)

    It seems any one that we lose leaves beacuse they can not make percentage or for the petty politics and personnel conflicts and will resign before they are dropped.

    Now does it sound like I made my case?


  22. #22
    Brian Dunlap
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Wink

    D.SCHWER....
    You made an excellant point if not a few...We to at 64-1 {Stratford} are required to maintain a 20% for the year !! Not a bad set up out of about 415 calls per year not sure of the exact math but it is less than 1/2 of the calls for the year required to maintain active status...Now we are required to attend so many drills and maintenance nights per year as well as a meeting percentage to be allowed to vote and hold office which most of our guys make including my-self or your gear will get pulled...I also agree with what you said about calls counting against you during the "Paid Hours" 8am-4pm...Thats wrong we have a system where the chief knows who works when and bases thier percentage around when they are working and when they would be likley to be home...We don't have paid personnel so our percentages are based on the individual...I Myself work Third Shift in Vineland, NJ so I'M not home until after 9am and remain availible until 11pm to answer fire calls which are the hours my chief bases my percentage Our chief allows the 1 hour before and the 1 hour after work rule that he doesn't count anything against a member he or she cant'make because his belief is work and family come first...We also use a "Duty Crew System" if you will where 5 Members are chosen by the chief at the start of each month--those 5 members one if which is an officer handle all minor engine calls between the hours of 11pm and 6am allowing the other 35 guys to stay home and sleep and not have the call count against them--Now Dwelling/Building/Alarm System/Rescue/Ladder calls require the entire station to respond so all the chief asks is for the guys not on the duty crew to listen up and come out if it sounds like more guys will be needed...this system has worked for us for a number of years and little things like these keep the guys around....Also for the most part our By-Laws don't effect Fire Department Operations we more or less run two organizations with in one....Enough of me babling on hope some of this made scene to you...BD

  23. #23
    FFTrainer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    It's interesting to see all these posts regarding Percentage requirements(especially in NJ)since I was going to pose that exact question. As most of the NJ members know, as a volunteer and a member of the State of NJ Relief Association, in your first 7 years, every FF must participate in 60% of dept. Firematic functions(training, calls, etc.) in order to become "Exempt". Once that 7 years is successfully completed, you are in essence done with the fire service except for the mandatory training(IMS 200, Bloodborne, Resp. Protection). The growing trend is unfortunately toward those guys who do their 7 years and become what we like to refer to as "Country Club" members. They show up for the "big ones" and the social functions, but that's it!! Try and have a work detail to wash and rack hose after a job!! You get about 4 guys!!!
    We have just begun discussions on further requirements so I will be taking all your contributions with me to our next Officer's Meeting. Thanks for the ideas!! Hope you don't mind if I steal a few??

  24. #24
    iwood51
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Steal away, plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery

    I was in a department that did the day-night thing with points, but that was a smaller department back in 1984-1987. The department I'm now in runs approx 1600-1700 alarms per year inclucing EMS runs, but I'm specifically excluding all meetings, trainings, drills, stand-by's, etc. I don't think our little 386 computer that does the point system could handle any further calculations
    Seriously though, and not wanting to go off topic, but, how do you guys tabulate the points and differentiate between night calls and day calls?

  25. #25
    D.SCHWER
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Reply to FFTrainer

    Thank for your interest. FFor exempt status 60% is way to much for me, but I'm not looking for exempt at my age. Our problem is that with or percentages we don't see many make it to seven years. I think it is time that some associations as well as the NVFC take a stand on rules that that do not support volunteering.


    Reply to iwood51

    We are on a NFIRS program. I don't do the input, but there is a way to exempt calls. Remember the computer is only a machine, garbage in garbage out
    I know this because at one time we had EMS being included in our percentages.
    We have a computer that handles all that.

    Everyone have a great weekend, Im going crabbing down the shore now that I can't run calls



    ------------------
    The views and opinions expressed herin are my personal views and opinions and not those of any organization, department I may belong to or represent

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