1. #1
    Haligan125
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Question Responding with a full crew?

    What are people's views about wainting at the station for a full crew before responding, or going in service as soon as you get there? In some departments I have ran with we waited, while others feel that getting the trucks to the scene is more important. I personally think the former is the best. Becasue even if you have a truck on the scene what are you going to do with out people to run it.

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    monte
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We usually make the best decisions using the most recent information. Throughout our district we usually have a person respond directly to the scene to get that updated info. back to the responder going to the station. This works well. We will respond ems without an emt on board if it's a priority call, e.g. chocking, not breathing, something similar. If a crew can be put together in a few minutes, wait, if not, arrive first, get current intelligence for the rest, clear the way, hazard analysis, help the organization be effective on arrival.

  3. #3
    WOODMAN
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    It depends on the time of day.During the 8-5 time period we are hard pressed to get 2-3 people on a piece of equipment which which is not to get put when you have automatic aid with the paid department it not as bad.But we do not have to many in that time frame.For the rest of the day we normally wait till we have 5 people a driver,officer,
    2inside people and someone to hit the hydrant
    however this is not a hard and fast rule we let the officer be the judge of what to do depending on the information that we are getting from the field.

    Tom

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  4. #4
    Fyrebugg41
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Red face

    Hey! In our dept., drivers are not supposed to respond without a radio operator at least. Sometimes we only get about 2 or 3 guyz responding on the truck. It's starting to scare our Captain and he's trying to change some stuff. There are always more people that meet us at the scene instead of riding the truck. But i also agree, getting the truck there will do no good if you have no guyz to run it.

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    ~*That's why we're here, to help those in need, we're not here for money, fame, or greed..To help those fellow friends, who can't help themselves..We're volunteers because we care, because we want to help, to help others who are in need, not for ourselves*~

  5. #5
    E21
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Are dept has paid who drive the appratus to the scene. If vollys are at the station they jump on board if not they respond in POV. the idear is to get appratus and personell to the call right. Well what happens if everyone goes to the station and all the trucks are finally full. You should make use of whats there. Are rules are simple here, if not at station go to call in POV. Paid guys are usually gone with truck after 1 minnute of page anyway so why try to make it on the truck just get to the call. We do have a pretty good turn out to most calls so personell is not usaully the problem. The thing is the longer you wait the worst it can get. The first ariving unit can report conditions and start laying lines at least. We had an early morning fire in wich the paid guys (3 total for 2 engines and 1 ladder)had a line from hydrant to engine ready and two attack lines ready, all that was needed was vollys to attack. Vollys got on scene right as paid guys had stuff set grab lines and put fire out. Paid guys were charging hydrant line as we pulled up in POV's. you have to set SOP's that work good for your dept. but waiting to long can make situation worse.

    Just my thoughts with some facts that happened with us. GOOD LUCK AND STAY SAFE.

  6. #6
    pfpchief
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    we wait for a full crew .most of my members live within 2or 3 blocks of the station. they are told to go to the station . the gear is kept at the station also.i beleive a truck with just an operator there is useless.you need a crew to do the job . daytime is another matter if we get one or 2 guys at the station we roll . our average responce time is 2 minutes with a full crew. daytimes they roll after 4 minutes

  7. #7
    Nick SBFD 6
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Smile

    In our department we wait for a whole crew, this is a luxury compared to other departments around us but it is a total pain to have 10 POV's on a scene. Our normal response would be a chief, an engine w/6 guys and in certain areas where there are 2 or 3 guys who live way out of town they might show up. During the day however, rules change still no POV's but we will leave with minimal manpower 3 or 4 guys we are lucky in that our highway and water dept lets there guy's go and the owner of the local oil company is a fireman along with 6 of his employee's so they're alowed to go and my self I work second shift at our police/fire/rescue dispatch center so I'm good untill about 3pm. Overall our night time response time is 3-4 minutes and 6-7 during the day

    [This message has been edited by Nick SBFD 6 (edited May 10, 2000).]

  8. #8
    e33
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    You can't say for sure which approach is right/wrong because everyone has unique situations in their areas. Some depts have an understanding that first guy drives there, others meet on the scene in POV, others can fill an engine cab in 30 seconds or less with 10 guys. Its a mix of geographic, personnel, time and other factors that need consideration. Personally I am a fan of waiting to crew up before going in service but that works here. If the driver is just impatient and takes off undermanned, that may be a problem.

    ------------------
    The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of any department or organization I belong to.
    All of the information in my postings is a combination of skills and knowledge from classes, conferences, seminars, practical application, experience and trial and error. I don't profess to be an expert in anything. You can never stop learning.

  9. #9
    FF.FOREVER
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Talking

    I guess it would depend on the time of the day. We don't have any trucks with more than a 2 man cab (yet). So it's not to hard to fill the trucks with personnal. I myself always respond to the scene because I live 10 mile from the station. Most of the firefighter have scanners in their vechiles so they know when the trucks are enroute. That way they know whether to respond to the secen or the station.

  10. #10
    LHS'
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We are totally volunteer. I think it is a management issue. You recruit to insure you have the people to respond 24/7 equally. We will not respond until there are 10 on the first engine and truck and 8 on any following major piece. Tenders get a crew of one. Command and a duty officer run with one directly to the scene. Our mutual aid is at least 30 to 110 miles away, so we don't a method of scratching on a call.

    We feel it is better to show up with a crew fully dressed ready to perform out of the cab than build a crew piece meal and have them get dressed on scene.

    Any firefighter who has to drive by the incident simply goes to the incident. It is essential the apparatus carry enough scba for the POV'ers to wear beyond what is needed for the crew on board. Our accountability system automatically tells command and the responding companies who they have on the rig and who has POV'd.

    We run about 350 fire and extrication calls a year without staffing or response time issues.

  11. #11
    HarrisonJR
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Smile

    As said before what works for one department may not work for another. We are totally volunteer and have left the station with trucks with just one man and we have left before with a full crew. After the call is toned out you have aprrox. 3-5 minutes to make it to the station otherwise the firefighters that made it their first will pull out. We have pagers and radios so we know if a certain truck hasn't left yet we can swing by the station to get it otherwise we respond to the scene with our pov. We're a rural department and if we had to wait on every call for a full crew before leaving it would take awhile to respond because some of us live to far from the station. When the trucks pull up to the scene there is usually firefighters who arrived in there pov's waiting for the truck to arrive to go to work or they arrive at the same time. Also the pov's will park out of the way for all apparatus to get to the scene so that isn't a problem for us. That's just how we do it.

  12. #12
    st34ff
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Arrow

    In my company, it all depends on what time of day it is. Day time, we will try go with at lest three on the truck, but days are tough for us. Night time, we can fill both trucks at the main station with no problem lately. That's 7 in the rescue and 5 in our engine. It just depends on the time the call hits. That's all.

    Kyle www.chalfontfireco.8m.com

  13. #13
    Nick SBFD 6
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Thumbs up

    I think you guys hit it on the head, it depends on situation, if your core group lives right in town you wait. If it would take in the upwards of ten minutes to get a full crew than you go. It's not a manpower issue as much as it is a geography issue, the job gets done either way.

  14. #14
    Engine58
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    Yea You are right..depends on your situation...such as my town....Most trucks in town Roll with 3-4 guys sometimes even 6 or 7 it all depends on teh call...Now my company being a Snorkel or Ladder Company whichever you want to call it we need at least 3 guys WELL We are lucky if we get a full crew at the station 4 calls outta 10......Most of our guys live up town..which is about a good 5-6 minutes away. The other Area UPTOWN is a straight road right to our station so thats a good 3 minutes away 4-5 minutes if hte light isnt red. So We wait like 2-3 minutes sometimes 4 But if we dont hear anyone else call in service we stay..But if we hear 2 Trucks call in service before us and how much manpower they have we roll .

    ------------------
    "Looks Like you Gotcha Self a hot one First Time up Kid"

    "EMTS DON'T DIE THEY JUST STABILIZE"

  15. #15
    Rob
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I agree with e33, every department runs differently for their area.

    We run similar to Woodman's dept.

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  16. #16
    wannabe-EMT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We will not run an engine with less than 4 people or the medic with less than two. Period. If we don't have the staffing at the time of the call and we don't have it when they response check us three minutes after dispatch, we get a missed response and it goes to the next closest company. Being in a county-wide combination department, this works out best for the public, as there's a career station just up the road a bit. (We are all volunteer.)

  17. #17
    FGFD43
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Exclamation

    I agree that this situation is different for different depts., however, I think it is very important that the truck does get to the scene. With new apparatus be built with more and more bells and whistles and gadgets, I feel it has become next to impossible for a single man to drive to a scene emergency trafic while talking on the radio, working the siren and watching all the traffic. There was a accident in a neighboring dept. just last week when the operator was driving back from a call and talking on the radio and went off the road into an embackment (no injuries, thank goodness). I believe no apparatus should leave the station without at least 2 men on board.

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    Kevin Sink
    Fair Grove Fire Dept.
    Thomasville, NC USA
    kevinsink@northstate.net

  18. #18
    fire freak
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hi my name is Matt Im 17 I think that you should wait for a full crew but if no one shows up then go.

  19. #19
    nubs84
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    At one of the stations that I run with we have three criteria for a truck to get on the road.
    1.)We have a full crew.
    2.)An officer tells us to get our butts on the road.Or,
    3.)After 4 minutes have passed we respond with however many people are on the truck.
    Number is just for the first due truck on the alarm assignment, the next trucks it is up to the driver if he wants to go with what he has.


  20. #20
    lt109
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    This is a sore spot on our dept. We have 2 stations that respond at the same time. Stn 1 is right in a village and can be manned in a matter of seconds, which is great. Stn 2 can be manned in about 3-4 minutes, which I don't think is too bad. The problem that we face is Stn 1 will respond with one man in each truck just so they beat Stn 2 to the call. This results in personal vehicles on scene which I believe causes too much confusion. The D/C at Stn 2 tries to hold the trucks for full crews ( 4,3 & 2) but sometimes this is not possible during the day. We've been working on this for a while and the guys at Stn 2 seem to like it. I believe we are all in the same boat for daytime response. Some day in a perfect world, the trucks will all respond with full crews and there will be no personal vehicles on scene. I would like to see everyone go to the Stn and if you miss the trucks, then too bad. When and if we need more manpower than the CO can call for them to respond to the scene. If all of our trucks respond full we have 20 ff on scene. If we need more than that, better call mutual aid!

  21. #21
    Bob Snyder
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Cool

    This is definitely a situation for judgement calls and there is no single rule that will fit all. We follow a general criteria that apparatus should leave the station in a way that it can be effective upon arrival on the scene. Generally speaking, this means that the first two pieces due leave with a minimum of a driver and two senior FFs, officers, or some combination. The third piece is generally a "trailer" that is unlikely to get directly involved with attack operations and doesn't necessarily need full staffing. It could be the ladder on a brush fire (just bringing whatever manpower is available and misc. tools), or the engine on a structure (most likely to be either part of a relay or filling tankers, which really only require a driver/operator).

    If the first-out piece can't get full staffing quickly and decides to go, the officer (or driver, in absence of an officer) is expected to inform the OIC of the situation if there is a confirmed working fire (or other incident) so that the OIC can make the decision about dispatching additional alarms or apparatus.

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