Thread: What's Wrong

  1. #1
    Kelly Tool Guest

    Angry What's Wrong

    Can you tell what is wrong with this picture. This picture is from an extrication drill our department ran over the summer.

    Put the wet stuff on the red stuff!
    Visit our Dept. Schodack Valley

    [This message has been edited by Kelly Tool (edited September 13, 2000).]

  2. #2
    Dr. Law Guest


    Outside of one fellow not in turnout gear, the pic is a little dark to see much detail.

  3. #3
    FFTrainer Guest


    Again, a little dark, but the guy in blue(no gear) leaning on the vehicle with his bare hand is a safety concern to me.

    I don't like the removed roof leaning on the vehicle. I think it should be removed to the side out of everyone's way if possible and especially on a drill.

    I also don't like the fact that it looks like people are doing some different things on different parts of the car with no regard for each other and also no ONE person appears to be overseeing -- well except for maybe the photographer.

  4. #4
    RSQLT43 Guest


    I hate when everyone bunches up around the tool operator like this, also you really should crank up some lights around the car so everybody can see.

    On the plus side, it looks like everyone has safety glasses on, even the guy without gear.

  5. #5
    Dr. Law Guest


    Yeah, now that somebody else mentioned it, it does look like too many cooks and not enough stew. How many people can hold one extrication tool, anyway? I can understand one on the tool and one on either side holding or pulling the metal back as it is parted or cut, but all of them there. No room to move.

    And the picture is still too dark. Photographer using a flash or one of those small throw-away cameras?

  6. #6
    Kelly Tool Guest


    Dr. Law hit the nail on the head, too many cooks and not enough stew. The guy on the right, holding the door, is guiding the person(who can't be seen ) in spreading the door from the hinges. The rest of the members(about 9 of them) are standing around, mostly leaning on the car like it is social hour. (I got board, and used half a camera on this).

    Other good points: (I took the picture, and yes it was disposable, we can't afford a real one )We do have a 40ft light tower that would have been really affective if some one(perhaps one of the guys leaning on the car )put it up.

    Yes the guy on the left should have had on his turn out gear.

    Unfortunatly about 2 people had on saftey glasses

    I think this goes to show what happens with poor planning, we could have had 3 cars, (3-4 guys to a car) instead of standig around. Any other comments??

    Put the wet stuff on the red stuff!
    Visit our Dept. Schodack Valley

  7. #7
    Dr. Law Guest


    Yes, I have a comment. How is it you get those green smiley faces?

    (Okay, so it was more a question than a comment)

  8. #8
    fjbfour Guest


    When adding a reply, you can click the link to the left of the message window to see a menu of smilies and what text to enter to get them in your post. The link reads: Smilies Legend". Or, you can click HERE and see it right now.

    Way too many cooks, that's for sure. I agree with the statement about leaning removed parts on the car, not a good idea in any situation, and especially during a drill when you don't have lack of manpower as an excuse.

    Frank Billington, #11
    Town of Superior Fire Online
    Opinions expressed here are not necessarily that of Town of Superior Fire.

  9. #9
    apatrol Guest


    Since its training i can understand everyone grouping together... but the lack of safety gear is a no no.. ever had a sliver of glass in the eye? Not pleasant! Be Safe

  10. #10
    Firekatz04 Guest


    What's WRONG??? WHAT'S WRONG??? I'll tell ya what's wrong....

    I just NEW I shouldn't have parked there!

    [This message has been edited by Firekatz04 (edited September 15, 2000).]

  11. #11
    Dr. Law Guest


    Well, let's see if I got that right now.

    As for the photo and safety glasses. I kind of doubt that small departments have that as standard equipment, though we do have the face shields which should always be used for this type of operation.

    While on that topic. Anybody know of a way to remove scratches from the visor shields?

  12. #12
    MetalMedic Guest


    Shall I knit-pick some more? How about what appears to be tools or cribbing laying on the left sideof the picture in the "action circle"? Does anyone see a charged hand line or even a portable fire extinguisher?

    Something I am curious about... I was always taught to take the doors first, THEN take the roof. Looks like the roof came first on this one.

    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

  13. #13
    Da Sharkie Guest


    Metal Medic, Having just taken an extrication class, by no means am I claiming to be an authority on this now, the subject of roof or doors first came up. A few reasons for the roof first came up that I think have some weight behind the argument.

    First, With the roof out of the way you have more room to work on the doors from a few more angles. Secondly, with the roof off there is more room and easier access to the patient to give them the care necessary. Third, If, God forbid, there becomes a need for a rapid extrication due to trauma code, fire develops or the pt. craps out on you the rapid extrication is that much more easily performed without as many posts and a more cramped space. I suppose it also allows for removal of other victims from the car if one is more pinned in the vehicle than the other or just more dificult to get at due the amount of damage. Again just a few ideas but like I said I'm not an "expert" as there are only varying levels of experience with extrication situations.
    Take care and stay safe.

    I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything.

  14. #14
    Dr. Law Guest


    Not to nit-pick the nit-pickers, but the way we were taught is to get what is in the way out of the way.
    When we start to tear into a vehicle, it is usually going to be trash to start with, but if only a door needs to come off to get to a person, then the door it is and not the roof.
    I agree with Da Sharkie about getting the roof off if the patient needs to be gotten out pronto or else, without much care as to their condition (i.e. death very imminent without a rush to get 'em out so you don't worry about neck or back injuries). However, if you can accomplish extrication by springing or removing a door, why take the time to cut the roof and then the doors. Bottom line, the situation will dictate the response, I guess.

  15. #15
    firebox1 Guest


    Everyone has said it to many cooks, no gear, leaning on the car, poor lighting, and so on but I don't think anyone has said anything about people standing at the rear and in front of the bumper don't know how new of a car but that is no no, I can't see a blocking on the car but the photo is dark

  16. #16
    PGFD236 Guest


    The photo is a little dark, but from what I seen was 1 person in no protective gear, no one with a command vest or anything stating who was in charge and lack of eye protection.
    I have always liked the idea of roof first. With a recip saw you can have it off in no time and start stabilizing the patients. You also might think about taking the roof to the rear of the vehicle. Reason being that it less likely you will strike the victims in the head with the B, C, or D post as it is carried over them. Keep Safe.

  17. #17
    Kelly Tool Guest

    Thumbs up

    Some points were made that i didn't even think about. First off Dr. Law, we are issued saftey glasses and yes we should have been wearing them

    MetalMedic also makes two good points that there shouldn't have been stuff laying around(the thing to the left of the pict is our dummy made of hose that we "extricated" from the vehicle)and that there should have been some type of fire protection ready incase of some unforseen fire.

    Firebox1 makes a good point that people shouldn't have been near the bumpers, although i thought that was more of a problem with car fires.

    And lastly, why did we take the roof off before the doors? The answer lies in PGFD236's comment about command. There really was no "command" so it was chosen at random as to what to do, hence the roof came off then the doors.

    And no, the car had not been stabilized

    Put the wet stuff on the red stuff

  18. #18
    Dalma Guest


    I was going to comment on the roof before door issue. Once the roof is gone almost all of the stability in the B pillor is gone and trying to roll the door would likely push the B pillor into the patient. I guess it depends on if the door had to be popped or not.


  19. #19
    Dr. Law Guest


    The thing about bumpers is that sometimes they compress, but do not release. The problem comes into play if you are standing next to the bumper when it lets go. Instant broken legs.
    Bad thing is during emergencies, it is dang hard to remember all the rules and go by the book each and every time. The best rule of thumb is to try to be as careful and safe as possible. We can't help others if we wind up needing help ourselves!

  20. #20
    Da Sharkie Guest


    A couple of rebuttals here.

    Taking the roof off first does NOT compromise Most of the strength of the B - pillar. As I said having taken an auto extrication class we took off the doors AFTER removing the roof and had NO problems doing it. The one thing to make sure you do is to take the doors off at the nader pin side first so that there is not playing around with a door that spins around on the pin while trying to remove it. When taking off the door at the hinges, especially if the the roof is gone, get in between the two hinges and if the tool is opened fully we had no problems popping at least one of the hinges off. The B - Pillar still has a lot of integrity to it after the roof is gone though it is not as stable. We cut t20 cars apart and neither time did the B - pillar get anywhere near where the passangers would have been. The post remained upright and flexed very little and provided enough stability to pop the door off of the pin. I realize that there are 2 schools of thought on this but it worth while to try it many ways yourself to see what works best.

    The other addition I have is that loaded bumbers are not the only thing to go off. Many cars have pistons used to support the hoods when opened, similar to the those used on hatch backs that will go off as well under load or when heated by fire.

    I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything.

  21. #21
    DD Guest


    Perhaps you are the guy who should have set up the lights, instead of playing with the camera.

  22. #22
    Kelly Tool Guest


    DD - I would have been glad to put up the light tower. That is if some one would have taught me . Of course i should of asked some one how to do it, right? .

    Put the wet stuff on the red stuff
    Visit our Dept. Schodack Valley
    Steve Kelly Jr.

  23. #23
    pokeyfd12 Guest


    I have one observation that sometimes is simple to overlook but with painful consequences.

    The FF stabilizing the drivers door seems to have his foot directly underneath the door. If that door is being taken off and pops off the hinges before he is ready, the guy may lose a couple of toes or even have the hydraulic line cut. I usually have somebody put a piece of cribbing there just in case. Either that or secure the door to the rest of the car somehow.

    I'm very happy to see pictures in this forum. It's a chance to critique and gain ideas from actual events. Thanks for providing them.

    Stay safe.

    Engine/Rescue Lt. Kevin C. (aka Pokey)

  24. #24
    Jolly Roger Guest


    What else can I add about the question on that pic? I think it's all been said. Hope everyone learns and lives well!

    Now, as to the smileys, there's another place to get smiley-type things. You can copy and paste the proper code right into the forums. Go to Crack's Smiles and have a look for yourself!

    Jolly Roger

    Let's not let the honor, tradition, and pride of the fire service erode away.

    [This message has been edited by Jolly Roger (edited September 21, 2000).]

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