I have a problem and thought you all might be able to through out a few suggestions. I am in a combination department where there is a bit of friction between the career and vollys (ok, alot of friction). It has become perfectly clear over the past few years that the career ff's intend to try and make it a fully paid dept. They keep doing things like not giveing us our incentives and slowly forcing people out. Once a few people leave and the numbers get lower they appeal to the town and say they need a few more paid people to fill the gaps. Our arguement is that if you gave us the money you are putting towards their salary for recrutement and retention we could get a lot more people. Are any of you in the same boat and does anyone have any crafty ways we can get a little leverage on them?
This is my opinion only.......
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Thread: Vollys being forced out.....
10-10-2000, 01:26 PM #1fire2000Firehouse.com Guest
Vollys being forced out.....
10-10-2000, 02:36 PM #2iwood51Firehouse.com Guest
Sorry, no help here. You seem to be complaining about your lack of incentive pay. Doesn't that detract from the idea that you're volunteer at all? I fully understand how paid, combo, pay-per-call and strictly volunteer departments work. You want to get back at them? Put up or shut-up. Make sure that your response levels are maintained so that there are no vacant slots for them to fill, and stop bitching about not getting your incentive checks.
I'm sorry if this sounds too inflammatory. If the web-team would like me to tone it down, I will edit it, however, I said what I meant and I meant what I said.
Please don't close the thread. I'm interested in additional responses.
10-10-2000, 03:40 PM #3comwhiteFirehouse.com Guest
I have a feeling iwood51 is probably right, and I have a plea posted elsewhere, also, but we have a small volunteer dept. that doesn't seem to be able to handle thier call load, we've had several delayed and ftr's. Our dept. has a long and strong history, but when the former chief resigned he took a lot of volunteers with him. Instead of rebuilding, our volunteers would rather be hunting, fishing, etc. and don't have the time they had during the summer. The result is the process of hiring 3 paid people. I have some concerns, but we need to do something. honestly, I am not slamming our volunteers, we owe them a great debt, but we also owe our citizens the security of knowing their emergency will be answered fast.
10-10-2000, 03:41 PM #4NCRSQ751Firehouse.com Guest
Incentives can mean money, priviledges, reimbursements for training, gear...etc. You were not specific so I won't assume anything.
This is a big issue and it's popping up all over. I'm in the middle of something similar. Traditionally all rescue (from auto ex to trench) has been done by the squads in the city we're in. Now the city FD is getting in on it. This has ruffled feathers on both sides - with reason.
Some volunteers feel they will be 'forced out' or 'taken over'. They see that they have worked for many many years to develop expertise in fields they can't exactly use just anywhere. Some have been at it over 20 years or more and here come folks just learning that will 'tell them what to do'. They see the end of tradition.
Some career folks see volunteers as a threat. Why? Because if a volunteer does something wrong, or gets a complaint, the worst thing that can happen is they get kicked out and go join another dept. If a career guy gets in trouble or gets a complaint they can get time off, demoted or lose their job. They know we are 'part time' so they don't know if we take this seriously or see it as a social thing.
Both have valid concerns, but both sides need to sit back and take a deep breath and handle it in a proffessional manner. Combo departments can and do work. It all depends on the leadership and maturity of the departments concerned.
Have you talked to the career folks? Do you know what their long term plans are? I'm talking about administration, not the suppositions of everyone who wants to start a rumor.
If they plan to make it an all paid department, why? What is lacking in their eyes in the volunteers? Is it a valid point? Can it be 'fixed'? If it's not valid, where did they get the idea? Why do they feel there is a problem? What was/were the real reason(s) for not giving incentives? How are they 'forcing people out'? Why are they able to justify replacing volunteers with paid personnel? If I know bean counters there has to be a darn good reason to put out enough money for a salary when they were paying exactly $0 before.
You must ask questions and identify issues in order to solve them. Forming conclusions on what others want to do without addressing it directly is asking for trouble. That's how rumors start, and that's how simple situations turn into wars.
Find yourself a leader, whoever the highest ranking volunteer is (or the strongest and most diplomatic person is if no volunteers hold rank), they need to speak to the career administration and rectify the situation. Your words indicate that it is a smoldering situation, better to douse it now while you still have the opportunity.
Captain - Forsyth Rescue
North Carolina Strike Force 1
10-10-2000, 04:37 PM #5fire2000Firehouse.com Guest
I should have been a little more specific about things when I posted this question. Here are a few more facts. We have, and still do get the trucks out of the barn and do it all the time. That is not an issue, at issue is the fact that despite still having a fair number of members and always getting the trucks out they are still trying to lower memebership. Since we still get the trucks out quickly one of the games they play is to roll the paid trucks and after they have left the barn, then they tone out everyone else. It seems to be the union that is instigating this, as far as we can tell. I simply want to know if anyone might be able to suggest some "back doors" to stop this at the point it is at.
Also, iwood51, I'm not "bitching" about not getting an incentive check. In fact I don't qualify for it yet because I haven't been in long enough so back off. This was in no way intended to flame up the stinky old arguement of what is a Volly or the childish argument of who is better career of Volly argument.
This is my opinion only.......
10-10-2000, 06:43 PM #6JAMESBENNETTFirehouse.com Guest
THE BEST ADVICE THAT I CAN GIVE YOU IS TO MEET THE PROBLEM HEAD ON. LIKE WAS MENTIONED EARLIER IN THE COMMENTS, TRY TO DEAL WITH THE ADMINISTATION FIRST. IF YOU MEET A WALL THAN TREAT IT AS A NORMAL GRIEVANCE AND GO UP THE CHAIN. SOMEONE IS PAYING THE BILLS AND THEY WILL BE LISTENING IF YOU START TALKING ABOUT THIER CHECKBOOK.
IT ALSO MIGHT NOT HURT IF WHEN THEY START WITH THE TALK OF HIREING NEW FOLKS TO INTRODUCE IDEALS FOR FUNDING RECRUITING PROGRAMS, AND INCENTIVES. YES I SAID INCENTIVES. TODAY IS A DIFFERENT TIME AND PLACE AND WE MUST COMPETE FOR THE ATTENTION OF OUR VOLUNTEERS AND THIER TIME. BEFORE THE 90'S OUR POPULATION WAS AT A MUCH SLOWER PACE AND WE HAD MORE FREE TIME TO DONATE. WITH THE WAY OUR FAST PACED SOCIETY MOVES TODAY, YOU EITHER STAY-UP OR FALL BEHIND, AS MOST VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATION HAVE DONE. IF YOU FIND SOMEONE WHO WILL LISTEN I THINK YOU WILL BE SURPRISED BY THE POWER THAT $ HAS.
JUST REMEMBER THAT YOU ARE ALL ON THE SAME SIDE OF THE FENCE AND IF THIS BECOMES A WAR YOU WILL MORE THAN LIKELY LOSE, BECAUSE THE ADMIN. AND THE UNION ALREADY HAVE THIER HOLD AND IF THEY MADE THE ARGUMENT TO HIRE THE FIRST FF. THEN THEY WILL MAKE THE ARGUMENT TO HIRE THEM ALL. I HAVE SEEN DEPARTMETS IN MY REGION GOING THOUGH THIS CHANGE OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS AND NONE OF THEM HAVE THE PERFECT WAY TO MAKE THIS TRANSITION, BUT I HAVE FORMED AN OPINON. I FEEL THE BEST WAY IS TO MAKE THE HEAD FIGURE( BE IT A CHIEF OR A COMMISSIONER) A VOLUNTEER. THE REASON FOR THIS IS BECAUSE THIS TYPE OF TRANSITION TENDS TO BE VIEWED MORE AS A COMPENSATED VOLUNTEER DEPT. AND NOT AS A SPLIT OR COMBO DEPT. IF AS YOU SAY YOUR TRUCKS ARE GETTING OUT OF THE BARN, THEN WHY DO YOU HAVE A PAID GUY IN THE LOT? BEST OF LUCK WITH YOUR PROBLEM. I KNOW THIS DOESN'T HELP MUCH, BUT AS I SAID EARLIER, I DON'T THINK ANYONE HAS FOUND A WAY TO MAKE THIS TRANSITION GO BY WITH-OUT HURT AND HARD FEELINGS. IF YOU FIND SOMEONE WHO DOES TELL THEM TO PUT IT IN A BOTTLE AND SELL IT AT WAL-MART, BECAUSE I THINK THIS PROBLEM IS MORE COMMON THAN MOST PEOPLE THINK.
10-11-2000, 01:15 PM #7iwood51Firehouse.com Guest
I'm confused. You say they're slowly forcing people out, then in your second post you say that manpower is not a problem. Exactly how are they forcing people out? I understand that people come and go, but you say that you are maintaining adequate staffing levels.
As far as them dispatching you after the paid truck leaves the ramp, so what? How much time difference are we talking? less than a minute? I would want the first truck on the road. you guys are second due at best, if not third or fourth. I don't profess to know your manpower status, but I'm sure that they are rolling with an adequate complement on the first due truck?
10-11-2000, 10:12 PM #8ffengFirehouse.com Guest
Two quick comments. First, I think you need to have support within the FD administration and also within your municipality (commissioners, selectman, etc.). Their position is critical to a large degree. I would build, support, etc. on that end. The other area I would focus on is looking at what your community can afford whether it be combo or all paid. Many out there believe that there are great differences in how FD's are funded on the paid side - they see 2 vs. 3 vs. 4 vs. 5 person staffing on trucks and think there is a huge difference in funding - there isn't. In fact if you only look regionally, there is very little difference. The differences you see in staffing are almost exclusively related to population and population density. The average FD funding for U.S. is around $95/capita. The south and west are somewhat less, midwest goes a little higher, and the northeast is the greatest, but not by that much. FDNY funding is about $125/capita. The reason FDNY has the per truck staffing they do is because NYC is extremely densely populated. I would take a look at what your community can afford. If your community went all paid, what do they get? I'll bet it is not that impressive. The combo depts I've seen in the northeast that have not supported their volunteers - they have not come close to replacing that manpower and I doubt they ever will. The tax base just isn't expanding a great deal in most of the northest.
I would use that data to show that the community cannot afford all paid. If the paid FF's are as concerned about providing service to the community as they are about gaining additional paid staff, they cannot ignore the fiscal realities and that the community needs additional volunteers, part-time, on-call whatever to make up the short fall.
10-12-2000, 03:11 PM #9fire2000Firehouse.com Guest
Ffeng, well put, and thanks for the statistics. Where did you get all of those numbers they would help a lot. I did a little calculating of our numbers, and they just donít match what you were saying. We are looking at approx. $160/capita and we only have 40,000 people and 45sq miles. Taxes are high where I liveÖ
Iwood51, as of right now our manpower is just about at its breaking point. If things continue to go the way the have over the past few year, then we are going to have trouble getting things done.
To answer your questions, they are forcing people out two ways:
1. Demanding more and more time for different requirements, training and such. Now donít get me wrong, Iím all for training but they are requiring things like having the fire police do hose advancement training. I donít know how it is where you are, but in the departments I see, the fire police are usually the old timers or injured guys who would love to still be interior ffís but canít physically hold the hose any more w/o risking having a heart attack. This brings me to my next point.
2. Changing the rules in the middle of the game. Once again take the fire police as an example. We have a very nice incentive program in our dept. One of the criteria for getting the incentive is to make a certain number of training drills. Not to hard to do right? Well, what if you were told that you needed to only make a certain 5 drills through out the year and you did so. Then when it was time for the chief to sign off on it he told you no. His reasoning was that they had to prarticipate in all the drills.
Really what it amounts to is just irritating people so they donít want to put up with the BS anymore.
I also have no problems with them getting the trucks out first. In fact it is physically impossible for us to get out as quick as them for the simple fact that they are in the station when the call comes in, so of course they are going to get out first. It just goes back to the things I mentioned above, itís just a game they are playing. See here is how this one works. They roll the truck, wait a few minutes, then tone us out. Then they tell the public that it took us 7 minutes to get the trucks out. OK, fair enough, it was 7 minutes from the time of the call to the time when the trucks went out but what the people donít get told is that it was actually 3 minutes from the time the call came in to the time the tones went off. So we were actually out the door 4 min.
Ffeng, has basicly gotten the point of my argument. MONEY! I am a tax payer in town. Our schools have a hard time getting new books, and our schools arenít receiving good maintaince because budgets are tight. So why should I sit by and watch this happen when I can try and do something to help other important parts of our community? See here is how I am looking at this. Say they forced out 10 vollys in the next year. Then, they went and asked for, and got, funding for 2 new career ffís to fill the gap of the missing 10. Now for round numbers say the two new ff's cost the town a total of $100,000. I think that hundred grand would have been better spent helping recruit new vollys and retain the 10 that would have left. Then given the rest to other depts of the town such at the board of ed or even buy new PPE or other up to date equipment. Hereís another thing, 10 people have the ability to get much more done than 2. 10 people will just about fill two trucks. With two people, you have one person pumping while the other one is hitting the hydrant, who uses the hoses and who does S&R?
10-13-2000, 08:23 AM #10iwood51Firehouse.com Guest
fire2000, I hear your plea about the Fire Police. I happen to be out on medical leave myself right now (Broke C-2, C-5, C-7, T-3) in an MVA. My doctor has cleared me for administrative duties (I'm in a Miami-J neck brace, and back at my desk job for work), however, my Fire District doesn't recognize 'administrative' or 'light duty' duties. I have gone to the source (the Board of Fire Commissioners) to address this.
As far as your second statement regarding the training, I agree with you 100%. Just one question, do you make the 'old-timers' participate fully, or can they participate by helping set up the scenarios, changing bottles, being MPO's, etc. This would certainly qualify as participation in the drill. Or do they just sit at the firehall and have coffee (There's both kinds in my FD). Regardless, do you have bylaws that state your minimum requirements as far as meetings, drills, schools, percentage of fire alarms. If you do, and these guys/gals make their requirements, there shouldn't be any argument, not saying there won't be, just that there shouldn't be.
10-13-2000, 11:48 AM #11Jolly RogerFirehouse.com Guest
Hey, fire2000! Hang on a second.
If you go around suggesting NOT giving paid employees their paychecks, or anything similar, don't look for simpathy from me. I was a volunteer firefighter for almost 8 years before I got hired full time. My VFD had a few paid personnel. My career fire department still has a few volunteer personnel. The attitude of the chief at the vfd and at my current fd look at it this way: The volunteer and the career firefighters (LOOK! A COMMONALITY HERE~FIREFIGHTERS!) complement each other. We also respect eachother.
Now, I will step up on a soap box for a minute. As a career firefighter, I am also a member of the IAFF. I am proud to be a Union firefighter. I was also proud to be a volunteer firefighter. Any inferences to laying guys off or not giving raises or in any way hurting their income, benefits, retirement, etc., will not be met with sympathy. They will be met with an anger that you do not want directed at you. We are not out to damage your income, benefits, or anything like that, so back off of ours.
You can bet that the council is not so stupid as to not be able to know the score. If they want to, they can get that crap you mentioned to stop. Yet, if they choose to replace volunteer personnel with career personnel, I would damn sure hope that they honored you and thanked you for your service. You deserve at least that much. To not do that is disgraceful.
Ok, off my soap box.
If you wish to volunteer, fine. I have no problem with that. After I retire I will likely volunteer again someplace. I wish you the best for you and yours.
Let's not let the honor, tradition, and pride of the fire service erode away.
10-13-2000, 01:44 PM #12fire2000Firehouse.com Guest
Jolly Roger Ė I never said/inferred anything about laying off or not giving raises to the career ffís in the dept. I simply donít think there is a need to hire any more of them right now. The ones that are there belong there and are completely entitled to raises, benefits, and retirement packages.
Iwood51- Ouch, sorry to hear about your accident, I hope you make a quick and full recovery so you can get back on the engines. To answer you questions, our fire police, as I understand it, are supposed to participate fully in the drills but as you said we only make them "help out" unless the career training officer shows up.
Hereís where things get a little complicated we have two sets of bylaws. There are the ones for our company and the ones that are created by the Career training officer. For training we follow what the career T.O. has set up. Unfortunatly, the T.O. has created such confusion, and so many different versions what we are supposed to do during training that Iím not sure anyone has a clear idea of what is supposed to happen. We have asked for, and received, what was supposed to be clairification on things but it changes daily and you can get three different answers from three different officers sometimes. This works to the advantage of the Chief and others when needed. We can be told one thing by the T.O. and if anyone else sees this as an area to so screw someone else, theyíll use it. We are trying to sort it out but, people have friends and their own agenda if you know what I mean.
This is my opinion only.......
10-13-2000, 02:01 PM #13comwhiteFirehouse.com Guest
Do you have a city manager, mayor, and or city attorney. The fire department answers to someone, get in touch with that person, and ask why you have two sets of by-laws. By-laws can't be amended just on a whim, it requires, in most instances, a meeting with advance notice, and two/thirds or majority vote. By-laws should be strictly adhered to, and very understandable, if yours (or his) aren't they need to be amended. My suggestion to you would be, (1) find the commissioner/councilperson most sympathetic to your cause, (2) have them go with you before the mayor/city manager to discuss your grievance, and (3) have them present a solution to the department. Now realize that unless the majority of your department feels as you do, you're probably blowing in the wind. If, and when the department makes a decision by majority, it should be a decision that you are willing to stand by also. The majority always rules.
10-14-2000, 05:07 PM #14ffengFirehouse.com Guest
You asked where I got my data - research on the web. Budgets, staffing, apparatus, area, population, etc. You can find most of it out there. I've got data on around 200 departments so far. I'll see if I can make the file small and post some or all of it.
You mentioned $160/capita for your community. That's right in there. I'm orginally from Massachusetts so I have quite a bit of data on New England. FD funding in New England is the highest I see anywhere. Funding is in the $150 to $175/capita for NE. Boston is the highest of any department I've found - $200/capita. California is a big state with many FD's. Different story there. Funding in the $50-80/capita range. The rest of the U.S. is a mix from as low the $50 range to up to $125/150.
I started this work after the Worcester fire. The City Manager was taking a hit for not funding certain FD requests, etc. I knew just from having lived in Mass, that taxes are high and FD funding a pretty decent.
What I set out to look at was: is there that much funding differences for FDs? Are there these big, bad city managers, councils, etc horribly underfunding their FDs. I didn't think there was. I thought it was based on the taxpayers willingness to fund local gov't services and I couldn't believe that it could be that much different.
Particularly if you look regionally, FDs are funded the same. So the differences in response times, truck staffing, etc. are not a function of the FD administration or city officials, but related to the demographics and geography of the community. And this is what you would expect, we live in a democracy. The PEOPLE really make the decisions, not administrators or politicians. And regionally the people fund FDs basically the same.
Good example: FDNY vs. Houston. Funding for both $125/capita. However, FDNY: 11,000 firefighters; 35 firefighters/sq. mi., 1 engine per 1.5 sq. mi. and 1 truck/2.2 sq. mi. Houston: 3,200 firefighters, 5 firefighters/sq. mi, 1 engine/7.5 sq. mi, 1 truck/18 sq.mi..
The funding is exactly the same, but look at the difference in staffing/appratus coverage, etc. The difference is all population and population density. For Houston to have the same coverage as NYC, Houston would need a budget 7 times what they have. That would take their $225 million budget to over $1.5 billion and that doesn't include the capital cost of all the new trucks and stations they would need. Will Houston ever have a $1.5 billion fire department budget - NEVER. That's an added $1.2 billion in taxes or about an additional $2500-3000 per household. Who is going to pay $3000/yr just for fire protection? For that kind of money, you could install fire sprinklers in every building in a few years and be done with the whole issue.
This is a real good example of the realities of a public service such as fire protection. A community with a population density of 3,000/sq. mi (Houston) will never have the same coverage as a community with a population density of 24,000/sq. mi (NYC), they simply can't afford it. And a federal fire bill that provides $7,500 per department or some NFPA 1710 committe is not going to change that. The local public will decide how much they will pay for government service and they will decide how much risk they will assume.
I don't know the details on your dept, but it sounds like you're taxpayers are close to tapped out. Unless you are really growing, how much more is the public going to pay? I doubt very much more. I agree with you on the $$ issue. One of the reasons I continue as a volunteer and probably the #1 reason I get up for BS calls is that I don't ever want other tax payers to question our services. I prefer to volunteer and have my taxes go to schools and infrastructure (roads, etc.).
It's really too bad. I don't really see that paid and volunteer have to compete. Each has a key role depending on the community. Very large urban, it is paid. Very rural, it is volunteer. As you move in from those two extremes, each group begins to have a role and that role should be respected. Volunteers may have to acknowledge that day time staffing needs assistance from paid and the paid side should acknowledge that smaller communities cannot afford a fully paid dept.
In either case, if each group doesn't acknowledge the realities of their capabilities and their community's ability to pay for services, then you end up short changing those you are supposed to be protecting.
I think you are exactly right on the 2 paid vs. 10 volunteer. Two paid positions?, after vacation, etc. you probably end up with about a 1/3 a firefighter per shift. That increase is nothing.
To run out the volunteers for 2 paid positions, that's a shame.
I wish you the best of luck.
10-15-2000, 10:30 PM #15chief208Firehouse.com Guest
Don't let this issue dwindle down to an "Us vs Them" issue. This needs to be addressed as an "We" issue.
First off, you need representation that is respected by the fire and community management.
You say the career truck is out the door befor the volunteers are even toned out.
If it is a structure fire, everyone should be toned at the same time. You need to bring this to the atention of your city managers.
This policy is gamgling with taxpayers lives.
Have you thought about volunteer staffing of your house? Two or three volunteers per shift can go al long way to providing added support to career staffing.
Instead of rolling one career truck right off, and waiting 4-5 min. for additional personel to report to station, why not place volunteers on the same shift, and run a combination crew, and get both trucks out the door under a minute.
If you guy's have to sleep on the hosebed, you need to staff the station as often as you can. As more and more of you staff, and the career force sees your abbilities to do the job, the tensions will ease.
There is no reason that career and volunteer firefighters cannot co-operate other than our own stubborness.
Get the volunteers to hang around the station as much as you can. Train with the career staff as often as you can. Have the volunteers come in and fix breakfast some Sunday mourning. Often times, little things tend to break the ice.
I wish you the best.
10-16-2000, 12:31 AM #16CatchFirehouse.com Guest
fire2000, I'm going to attempt to make a couple "suggestions" without stepping on anyones toes.
First of all, any department has to do what's best for it's community. Ask yourself, and your administrators this..."is waiting until all the paid trucks are out to tone vollies the best service we can provide to our community?"
Also keep in mind, a fire department is a lot like a business. You have a budget you must meet, equipment and training to pay for, and a service to provide. Now, which is more cost effective, paying a career FF wages, training costs, and equipment or payin a vollie training costs and equipment? When it comes to politicians and administrators, they see $$$$.
I agree with what several have suggested, go to the administration or city council, that's who runs the show, and they WILL have the show run how they want it ran. Hope things get better for you!!
10-16-2000, 11:28 PM #17Jolly RogerFirehouse.com Guestfrom fire2000:
I never said/inferred anything about laying off or not giving raises to the career ffís in the dept. I simply donít think there is a need to hire any more of them right now.
Our arguement is that if you gave us the money you are putting towards their salary for recrutement and retention we could get a lot more people.
Now, I'll wonder aloud about your dispatching woes. The paid crew is rolling before the vollies are paged. Is the alarm received at the station? Or, is there a "bat-phone" type setup where the duty crew can listen in to the call as it comes in to the dispatch center? Why shouldn't they get out the door fast? As the dispatcher is still taking information, they can be rolling to the scene. Then, when all the needed info has been obtained, hit the tones and get everyone going. At least the citizen who called for help is getting some help started their way.
Now, let me see if I understand budgeting things... your FD takes in $160 per captia, and you serve 40,000 constituents in 45 square miles. If I did my math properly, that comes out to $6.4M. With a budget like that, there should be several paid companies operating from several stations. If that's the case, your departments should be an ISO Class 1 department!
Can your departments volunteers do shifts at the stations? My department (I am a career firefighter on a combination department) requires the volunteers to ride out a minimum of 24 hours a month. This isn't much, but when you factor in the fact that our volunteers have careers of their own, not to mention family lives, I think it is a fair requirement. We even have provisions in our labor contract that allows for the volunteers to work when no career members can be reached (for details, sick calls, etc.).
As far as training goes, our volunteers are held to the same standards as the career guys. They even have the same classifications as the career guys. (In my FD, classifications are used to determine who can drive what type of vehicle.)
I am pleased that, at least on my department, the vollie and career members all get along. We respect eachother as firefighters. We respect what each of us brings to the table.
Too bad that doesn't happen more, huh?
My two cents.
Let's not let the honor, tradition, and pride of the fire service erode away.
10-17-2000, 09:51 AM #18bob1350Firehouse.com Guest
Well, I wonder which anonymous poster you really are. As a volunteer division chief of the dept you are "speaking" for. You are just another one of our embarressments. To get on this forum and ask for "crafty ways" and "back door" suggestions is totally uncalled for. If you truly are who you say you are, e-mail me. My name and dept are here for everyone to see. Our organization does not need this. I respectfully ask the web masters to SHUT THIS THREAD DOWN.
10-17-2000, 10:08 AM #19Jolly RogerFirehouse.com Guest
For what it's worth, I sincerely wish you and your department the best of luck. I honestly hope that your organization gets thru whatever problems there may be.
Best wishes, Brother!
Let's not let the honor, tradition, and pride of the fire service erode away.
10-17-2000, 12:05 PM #20iwood51Firehouse.com Guest
Bob thanks for being honest and open. I would love to see how this turns out.
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