1. #1
    FFTRITT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post Personnel Accountability Roll Calls

    We all have heard about PAR's - How does your company accomplish them, when things go bad?

  2. #2
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I can't believe the fire service believes a PAR will save anyone in light of all the LODDs that reportedly no one ever asked for help (Pittsburgh, Lake Worth, Houston, Kiokuk, etc). The idea of every 10 to 20 minutes and in some places as hard as it is to believe 30 minutes asking if everyone is OK is flawed. If biological death occurs in 4 to 6 minutes, when should the PAR occur?

    Most really good firefighters cannot hold their breath 10 to 30 minutes plus the time it takes to poll everyone, plus the time to guess where the missing are located, plus the time it takes to get a crew together and let them know where you think the victim(s) are located, plus the time it takes to locate them, drag their lifeless bodies out of a dangerous environment and begin care.

    Odds are you will be just as dead with or without the PAR. Without real time constant monitoring of crews and tracking systems to locate downed firefighters in heavy smoke, you just have a feel good program with little or no real life saving value. Kinda like stand alone PASS devices that have been proven to only be on 22% of the time.

    Quarter of a tank alarms on air bottles are just as silly. If it takes you 21 minutes to get yourself in, how do you get out in 7 minutes? 45 minute bottles with 1/2 bottle alarms would seem to be more practical.

    I think the current ideas of accountability, RIT and PAR concepts in use by most departments are extremely flawed. Time for a mental enema and rethink the whole concept of the value of life and increase our chances of survival.

  3. #3
    PA Volunteer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    LHS,
    Thank you for your most insightful input, not to mention most useful. I'm still wondering why you waste your/our time with your completely useless posts. Instead of simply pointing out problems (any probie can do that), why don't you come up with an alternative? Here in PA, roll calls have worked very well at major incidents where you have 10, 15, 20 different pieces of apparatus working. Not to mention, it works well after transitional stages of a fire, i.e. offensive to defensive. As for your statistics on PASS devices ... that statistic (who knows where it's coming from) will most surely be outdated w/in the next year, if not already, with the change that many companies are making to integrated PASS devices. So, in other words LHS, thanks for nothing.
    FFTRITT - as mentioned above, on major incidents (multiple alarms w/ all hands working) dispatch does a roll call at certain intervals (not sure exactly when), during/after evacuation and/or change to defensive position.

  4. #4
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //why don't you come up with an alternative?

    Gee, that is old news, 6 years ago we bought radio transmitting PASS devices that turn themselves on, for all of our firefighters. We know the status of our firefighters every 12 seconds. We use trackers to locate downed firefighters in heavy smoke and darkness and all imagers transmit to command to monitor status and operations of our crews, oh we started that in 1988.

    //why don't you come up with an alternative?

    So let me ask you, what is your alternative, have you put your mouth where the firefighter meets the fire ground???

    //Here in PA, roll calls have worked very well at major incidents where you have 10, 15, 20 different pieces of apparatus working

    OH BULL! How long did that take? Worked well means no one was down, right? The system does not take into account the human beings 4 to 6 minute biological death factor now does it??? Get real!

    //Not to mention, it works well after transitional stages of a fire, i.e. offensive to defensive.

    Gee, so does ours, every 12 seconds. It isn't accountability if it doesn't work during the transitional stages is it???

    //As for your statistics on PASS devices ... that statistic (who knows where it's coming from)

    NFPA and USFA, is that good enough for you?

    //that statistic ( not having the device on) will most surely be outdated w/in the next year,

    Oh, everyone in the US fire service now has integrated PASS? Get real! At Harrisburg Expo the Dauphin County rigs you run with didn't all have integrated PASS, gee companies there were bragging about getting their first imagers this year(Lower Sawatra, etc).

    OH, did anyone here the PASS devices sounding in Lake Worth, Houston, Mass, etc???? NO! So what good were they??? Unless the system tells command and all the sector commanders it is sounding it is worthless.

    //that many companies are making to integrated PASS devices

    Can you say ALL companies make them??

    //on major incidents (multiple alarms w/ all hands working) dispatch does a roll call at certain intervals (not sure exactly when)

    Gee, that is a good system when the users don't even know when they are being accounted!

    //does a roll call at certain intervals

    Can all firefighters hold their breath that long???

    Do you happen to know when the roll calls (accountability) were conducted in Pittsburgh, Mass, and Houston? I'll make it easy on you, they were conducted at the exact same time, so one answer will work fine.

    //dispatch does a roll call

    Gee, not command, or safety or accountability, farm it out to dispatch eh?? I bet that ties up the radio for a while.

    So thanks for your totally useless post, don't know when you call around, etc!


  5. #5
    Exp.chief51
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Angry

    LHS*, Don't start this crap. He asked how your company accomplishes PAR's, not for you to start spouting off. You continually pick apart peoples posts about everything and destroy posts with your criticism. If you can't say anything nice, then SHUT THE HELL UP!

  6. #6
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post





    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 05-15-2001).]

  7. #7
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Your right experienced chief, how dare I question the whole idea of PAR.

    PAR is a wonderful way along with dog tags to determine who needs to be buried. I guess you could do it the day after as well as the day of.

    Heck shoot for 1 hour and 10 minutes. That is what the pros do!

    In direct answer to his question on when PAR, I say 12 seconds, every 12 seconds!


  8. #8
    Dalmatian90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Hey Larry,
    Do you have procedures or tools in place to backup or minimize the effect of failure of part of the radio-PASS system? Such as the failure of a base receiver that tracks all these units?

    How do firefighters know their PASS is communicating with the Base before entering a hot zone?

    Does the system run into problems with large structures, or "radio-unfriendly environments" like lots of metal? Can the person monitoring the base tell the difference between radio failures from being out of range, or being blocked by debris?

    I'm assuming their is some active transmitting involved by the PASS back to the base. This will take much more power than a simple motion-detector circuit. How long do the batteries last? Are they rechargeable? How do you know when to replace/recharge the batteries? What happens when a firefighter's PASS battery dies during a fire?

    With reliance on technology (not that it's bad) either redundancy needs to be built in, or manual procedures continued.

    I think the wireless PASS is where we'll all be one day. But with any technology, to really find all the bugs, or even just the tweaks to improve it, they need to be used by more departments than are using them know. I believe the Grace system comes out of industry, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you have time there to test and tweak a system to know where/how it works around your plant...a luxury you don't have on the fireground usually.

    Actually, this is a perfect candidate for a focused federal R&D project that could deploy the 5,000 or 10,000 units in different departments with different buildings and hazards to find out how to improve them and get them to the point departments are comfortable moving to that technology. Once departments are comfortable and start ordering volumes go up, prices go down, and we'll see more departments ordering them...what a great cycle.

  9. #9
    Halligan84
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I'd love to have electronic failure be my only concern. I'd still use radio PAR, but gotta admit, Radio PASS is the way to go.

  10. #10
    FD111
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Larry, I have the same question Dalmation has. Do you have a procedures if your radio pass does have a failure? Would any of your firefighters know how to do a manual PAR if they had to? Do you have a procedure in place when your department is on mutual aid, if the department you are mutual aiding does not have a radio pass system? How does it know exactly where each and every firefighter is on the fire ground? I mean does it know that firefighter "X" is in rehab, or working in sector 2, or is that firefighter just wondering around the scene? If the radio system does not do this, then how do you control free lancing on the fireground?
    By the way, why do you intentionally rip people apart, when they ask a simple question? I have yet to see a posting by you, that has not been a direct attack. If this is the way you normally are with people, it amazes me that you still have people that want to volunteer for your department. Why don't you try teaching, or offering advice, rather than trying to act as if you know everything and everyone else knows nothing. If you didn't have your head so far up your a** then you might see that people are trying to learn something.

  11. #11
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ///Do you have procedures or tools in place to backup or minimize the effect of failure of part of the radio-PASS system?

    Sure

    //Such as the failure of a base receiver that tracks all these units?

    We have several receivers. Although never had a failure. Two receivers are on scene on all events minimum

    //How do firefighters know their PASS is communicating with the Base before entering a hot zone?

    They don't, command can tell before a crew is assigned by name who's system is working or not working throughout the event.

    //Does the system run into problems with large structures, or "radio-unfriendly environments" like lots of metal?

    Never experienced it with the enhanced receivers, repeaters etc.

    //Can the person monitoring the base tell the difference between radio failures from being out of range, or being blocked by debris?

    If we get an out of range signal we immediately call the member by name and find out what is going on. Working in pairs or better offers pretty good redundancy. All members have portables.

    //I'm assuming their is some active transmitting involved by the PASS back to the base.

    Every 12 seconds.

    // This will take much more power than a simple motion-detector circuit. How long do the batteries last?

    A bit over 4 months and we change them out every two.

    // Are they rechargeable?

    No which improves the reliability.

    ///How do you know when to replace/recharge the batteries?

    The receiver and base tells you.

    //What happens when a firefighter's PASS battery dies during a fire?

    Newer had it happen, but if it did, several days before the fire every 5 minutes the device chirps and the receiver broadcasts the name of the person low on juice. In our system they'd never get inside the action circle without being discovered.

    //With reliance on technology (not that it's bad) either redundancy needs to be built in, or manual procedures continued.

    With dual PASS on all members entering a smoke zone, a tag is left behind that activates the radio PASS, so at worse we are better off than a standalone tag system.

    //Actually, this is a perfect candidate for a focused federal R&D project that could deploy the 5,000 or 10,000 units in different departments with different buildings and hazards to find out how to improve them and get them to the point departments are comfortable moving to that technology.

    Unfortunately the federal program won't hit the streets for at least 6 years. I can't think of any federal program that has helped firefighters on the street, can you?

    //Once departments are comfortable and start ordering volumes go up, prices go down, and we'll see more departments ordering them...what a great cycle.

    Amazing, isn't it? We as a service rarely do what is right or best, we do what is cheap.

    // I have the same question Dalmation has. Do you have a procedures if your radio pass does have a failure?

    If a base fails, nothing changes the 2nd base will still see what is going on. Withdrawal if a PASS device indicates n transmit.

    //Would any of your firefighters know how to do a manual PAR if they had to?

    It would be from command not the firefighter.

    //Do you have a procedure in place when your department is on mutual aid, if the department you are mutual aiding does not have a radio pass system?

    Everyone we'd fight structure fires with has the same system.

    //How does it know exactly where each and every firefighter is on the fire ground?

    We have an electronic tracker system that locates each member.

    //I mean does it know that firefighter "X" is in rehab, or working in sector 2, or is that firefighter just wondering around the scene?

    As command or the company officer assigns task they are assigned by unit and individual names, Joe and bill to vent roof off E-1, jack and bob to forcible entry rear off t-2, etc.

    //If the radio system does not do this, then how do you control free lancing on the fireground?

    The system tells you when each member arrives on the fire ground, what vehicle they were on, or POV. All members are assigned in pairs or better, all members report to staging or on a 1 rig event to the command rig for assignment.


  12. #12
    Adze
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ////Would any of your firefighters know how to do a manual PAR if they had to?
    //
    //It would be from command not the firefighter.

    Command would initiate it, but would the firefighters know what the heck was going on or how to respond?


  13. #13
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //but would the firefighters know how to respond?

    Let's see, command could say any of the following:

    "Engine 1 crew, sound off"

    "Engine 1 crew Miller and Smith roll call"

    "if you're not dead sound off."

    Possible answers, "here", "yo", "we're still alive", "We're mostly alive", "we're still out of air", "what do you want?", "don't bother us we are saving lives", or "what?"

    What do you suggest?

    //but would the firefighters know what the heck was going on

    A better quetion would be would they care? Someone in charge asks their status and they answer, what else would they want to know?

  14. #14
    FFTRITT
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Unhappy

    Why must it be that every time someone asks for information, someone has to start a ****ing match instead of just answering the question posted. LHS* - I appreciate your comments and it seems to be an excellent system. Unfortunately many companies don't have the $1000's (??) for the system. (although what is the cost of a human life?)
    But back to the original question - if you have a "MAYDAY" call and are not using LHS*'s system, how do you do your PAR? Using a radio to call every member?? - only works if every member has a radio, which they may not.

  15. #15
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    //how do you do your PAR? Using a radio to call every member?? - only works if every member has a radio, which they may not.

    Houston's LODDs did not have radios to PAR.

  16. #16
    Dalmatian90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    I can't think of any federal program that has helped firefighters on the street, can you?
    http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/olmsa/...trans/fire.htm


  17. #17
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    ?//I can't think of any federal program that has helped firefighters on the street, can you? http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/olmsa/...trans/fire.htm

    Not really, Litton (fit in your bunker coat pocket liquified compressed air) and Scott (4.5) both were awarded bids to design what Nasa talks about. You can blame Scott not NASA for the air pack. Gee look how little has changes since 1971. The really cool system was never built.

  18. #18
    Dalmatian90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Not really, Litton (fit in your bunker coat pocket liquified compressed air) and Scott (4.5) both were awarded bids to design what Nasa talks about. You can blame Scott not NASA for the air pack.

    Interesting. Scott was awarded the bid. Who paid them?

    Sounds to me like federal dollars where spent in a focused R&D effort to advance a technology for firefighters.

  19. #19
    PA Volunteer
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FFTRITT - I would like to apologize on behalf of LHS for turning yet another post into a place for him to try to overcompensate for lack of something (who knows exactly what). So, to LHS, thanks for ruining FFTRITT's post and not answering his question. It's extremely sad that the only place you can prove, or try to prove, yourself is in cyberspace. I actually do feel badly for you, LHS. I refuse to even respond to any of your specific comments. Nonetheless, stay safe.

  20. #20
    mongofire_99
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    FFTRITT

    How does your company accomplish them, when things go bad?

    Generally, and I hate to admit it but sometimes the truth hurts, we wait for things to go bad then we call everybody out and get one. Only takes 5 or 10 minutes.

    I've been to the fire where no progress was made for the first several minutes, IC calls me on the radio, and said "Go see why we ain't makin' no progress in there" and never called a PAR to find out if the crew was OK.

    Sometimes dispatch remembers to call command at 20-minute intervals to remind them a PAR is needed.

    LHS*

    I can't think of any federal program that has helped firefighters on the street, can you?

    I can't think of any federal program that has helped anyone or made anything better, much less affordable...

    By your posts, I figure you are using the GEM System or something similar, but what is this electronic tracker you speak of?

    PA Volunteer

    thanks for ruining FFTRITT's post and not answering his question.

    Question - We all have heard about PAR's - How does your company accomplish them, when things go bad?

    Answer - ...we bought radio transmitting PASS devices that turn themselves on, for all of our firefighters. We know the status of our firefighters every 12 seconds.

  21. #21
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    We use GEMS. The Tracker is made by a company called TRACKER

    Oh the answer to PARS and roll calls in Worcester, Pittsburg and Houston? They were according to NIOSH all 1 hour and 10 minutes into the event. So no we don't intend to follow the big boys practices.

    IN all three events firefighters did not call for help

  22. #22
    Dalmatian90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    IN all three events firefighters did not call for help

    Worcester Fire Department Board of Inquiry
    Appendix J
    Operations A Transcript

    18:46:12.90 R-1/P3 "Rescue 600 to Command. We need help, on the floor, below the top floor of the building, we're
    lost."

    Huh, that's odd. They used the word "help" Larry.
    ------------
    How well does the Tracker equipment gear work, as in it's precision inside a structure?

    My experience with radio location finding is it's child's play to find a heading, very easy to find a location to within an acre, pretty quick to narrow down to a 30' circle. Has the technology improved that once your within 10 or 15' you don't need to spend either a) a lot of time or b) visually find the target? At distances that close, it's difficult for radio receivers to attenuate out enough of the signal to accurately know which direction the signal truly is "strongest".

    Once you've narrowed down to even a 10' or 15' circle in a building full of smoke, that's a big area. Provided the walls weren't metal and twisted the radio reception, they probably let the signal through -- so you could narrow down and be on the wrong side of a solid wall, or worse yet narrow down the location to find you are above or below the person.

    Handheld trackers aren't good at differentiating elevation at close distances. For that matter, most radio location systems aren't good -- you need multiple receivers to triangulate the "x & y" accurately...you need a lot more receivers or much fancier radios that can transmit on two electrical planes to determine the "z" of elevation.

    Designing these systems are an interesting engineering challenge for fixed locations where they can be tuned to that site. Designing one for mobile use by the fire service any where any time any building could be damn near impossible.

    (For those of you wondering, portable GPS equipment isn't any better, while mobile GPSs with external antennas and enough time to correlate multiple sattellites might get you within that 10' circle...but GPS that accurate aren't practical for an individual to carry and setup.)

    I believe Larry's trackers are made by http://www.trackerradio.com/profile.html
    ---------------

    How should we address accountability?

    Systems like GEMs are interesting. They automate to some extent procedures the British Fire Service have been using since 1961. At the same time, I'm not convinced they're neccessary if we follow strong control procedures like the Brits.

    While not perfect, and they've had to revise it over the years and work to get everyone to follow always, the British system (and feel free to add to it if I'm missing something) requires:

    In a nutshell, before anyone makes an entry in SCBA, there is an Entry Control Person posted at the entrance. He puts on an armband indicating such.

    Firefighters give the Entry Control their tag, EC verifies the cylinder is full, and lets them enter. He writes on the board the time they entered, calculates their time due out (cylinder duration less 10 minutes), and watches the watch on the board.

    When they come out, they pickup their tags and are crossed off.

    If the tags are still there with 10 minutes to go, the Entry Control notifies them and requests their status. No answer, trouble, etc immediately institutes emergency procedures.

    This is the *sole* job of the Entry Control (and we, myself included, whine about 2in/2out being ornrous)

    On larger incidents, there is a higher level accountability officer who tracks the assignments of everyone on the scene, while the Entry Controller(s) continue to monitor those going inside and out at their entrances.

    Certainly portable radios for everyone and always-on PASS devices are a major adjunct, so if you're in trouble before the Entry Controller sees your time is up, you can let someone know. The automatic notification out of the building is the biggest strength I see in the GEM system, but you still have to have manual procedures in place in case the technology doesn't work.

    To address situations like Worcester Cold Storage, better pre-plans and having those documents readily available is a help. A big one. Knowing which buildings in your area have or probably have unusual or dangerous layouts is key -- especially if you enter it with the forethought if we fight inside, we'll all be on hose or rope. Yeah, I suppose a rope can break or be covered by a collapse but I still trust it's reliability more than electronics.

    And while Command is ultimately responsible, it shouldn't be their job to track who is inside and outside. Use a two level accountability system like above -- Operations tells the manpower officer what he resources he needs where, manpower assigns and tracks the resource, and entry control tracks the entry and exit from the "hot zone."

    Yeah, it would take a big cultural change for us to adopt stricter entry procedures like this. Is it doable? Certainly. Affordable? Yep, not too costly for the tags, white boards, grease pencils, and watches. Does it take discipline we often lack? Yep. Can it be modified to fit our culture better? Probably. Maybe on the initial apparatus the "entry control" board is given to the pump operator who writes down the times, and then hands it to someone on the 2nd due unit.

    Matt

  23. #23
    LHS*
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    IN all three events firefighters did not call for help

    //Operations A Transcript
    18:46:12.90 R-1/P3 "Rescue 600 to Command. We need help, on the floor, below the top floor of the building, we're
    lost."
    Huh, that's odd. They used the word "help" Larry.

    That’s right! One set of two, HOW MANY DIED?

    ------------
    //How well does the Tracker equipment gear work, as in it's precision inside a structure?
    My experience with radio location finding is it's child's play to find a heading, very easy to find a location to within an acre, pretty quick to narrow down to a 30' circle. Has the technology improved that once your within 10 or 15' you don't need to spend either a) a lot of time or b) visually find the target?

    Yeah.

    //At distances that close, it's difficult for radio receivers to attenuate out enough of the signal to accurately know which direction the signal truly is "strongest".
    Once you've narrowed down to even a 10' or 15' circle in a building full of smoke, that's a big area. Provided the walls weren't metal and twisted the radio reception, they probably let the signal through -- so you could narrow down and be on the wrong side of a solid wall, or worse yet narrow down the location to find you are above or below the person.

    Yes

    //(For those of you wondering, portable GPS equipment isn't any better, while mobile GPSs with external antennas and enough time to correlate multiple sattellites might get you within that 10' circle...but GPS that accurate aren't practical for an individual to carry and setup.)

    Sorry GPS doesn’t work indoors, you know…has to see a satellite.


    //Certainly portable radios for everyone

    Pittsburgh FF’s didn’t call for help with radio on each.



  24. #24
    Dalmatian90
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    IN all three events firefighters did not call for help
    //Operations A Transcript
    18:46:12.90 R-1/P3 "Rescue 600 to Command. We need help, on the floor, below the top floor of the building, we're
    lost."
    Huh, that's odd. They used the word "help" Larry.

    That’s right! One set of two, HOW MANY DIED?


    19:03:35.48 L-2/P1 Chief, are all people accounted for out of the building? Ladder 2 and Engine 3 are on the fifth
    floor we're still searching.

    19:08:53.90 L-2/P1 Chief, get a company up the stairwell to the fifth floor. We can't locate the stairwell, or give
    us some sign as to which way to go. We are running low on air, and we want to get out of

    Um, Larry, we've now accounted for Rescue 1 and Ladder 2's officer who was working with the firefighters from Engine 3 all accounted for having called for help.

    Far as I'm aware six died, did anyone else die who didn't call for help ask for help themselves or through their team leader?

    Matt

  25. #25
    S. Cook
    Firehouse.com Guest

    Post

    Our PARs run along the same lines as some mentioned here if we remember to do them. As this topic goes, we are considering the Grace T-PASS, but some on the department want more radios for safety so we can call for help (and some don't think we should get either).

    Radios and improved PARS are hardly the answer and while I believe good communications are a must, with all due respect to those that wish to debate that they are the answer, in my most humble opinion it's a waste of time.

    I recall a video tape listening to firefighters call for help on the radio and no one was listening except for some guy with a scanner. 5 died that day. I believe the town was Hackensack...

    Larry points out that firefighters have died holding radios and never calling for help.

    Dal90 points out that Worcester called for help. Only 6 of us died that day...

    How many of us died because the guys outside never even know we were at the fire?

    How many of us died because we were confused and thought everyone was accounted for in the PAR?

    Since the fire service has been on this PAR kick, how many fewer fatalities do we have?

    How many more of us will it have to take before we see PARS aren't the answer?

    Right now we have the body tags on our helmets and like I said, sometimes we remember to do a PAR. But how often should they be done? We die in 4 - 6 minutes, should we do a PAR every 3 - 5 minutes? Possibly stopping any progress being made on the fire depending on your system and eventually over time, have FFs ignore the PAR call because they can't get anything done?

    Every 10 minutes? That way we can get to the seat of most fires and put water on it before the PAR call. But what happens if the 2nd floor falls on the 1st in the 1st few minutes with no visible exterior indications? That never happens does it? Or if we go through the floor?

    More often than not, nothing bad happened and the fire's out and things are relaxed, a few of us are in doing overhaul without their $450.00 integrated PASS on the SCBA they left outside. PARS are now either forgotten or extended because nothing bad happens in overhaul. What do you know, one of us pulls the attic storage down on us as we're pulling the ceiling. OOPS, how long will it be before command knows we're trapped? 5, 10, 15, 30 minutes, maybe more?

    Command will know instantly (with manual activation) to 25 seconds (with auto activation) of the T-PASS.

    We're on a tight budget too and it just keeps getting tighter, but is one of my firefighters life worth a measly $450.00? Is mine? Is yours?

    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited 05-18-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by S. Cook (edited 05-18-2001).]

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