Personnel Accountability Roll Calls

[FFTRITT]

We all have heard about PAR's - How does your company accomplish them, when things go bad?

[LHS*]

I can't believe the fire service believes a PAR will save anyone in light of all the LODDs that reportedly no one ever asked for help (Pittsburgh, Lake Worth, Houston, Kiokuk, etc). The idea of every 10 to 20 minutes and in some places as hard as it is to believe 30 minutes asking if everyone is OK is flawed. If biological death occurs in 4 to 6 minutes, when should the PAR occur?

Most really good firefighters cannot hold their breath 10 to 30 minutes plus the time it takes to poll everyone, plus the time to guess where the missing are located, plus the time it takes to get a crew together and let them know where you think the victim(s) are located, plus the time it takes to locate them, drag their lifeless bodies out of a dangerous environment and begin care.

Odds are you will be just as dead with or without the PAR. Without real time constant monitoring of crews and tracking systems to locate downed firefighters in heavy smoke, you just have a feel good program with little or no real life saving value. Kinda like stand alone PASS devices that have been proven to only be on 22% of the time.

Quarter of a tank alarms on air bottles are just as silly. If it takes you 21 minutes to get yourself in, how do you get out in 7 minutes? 45 minute bottles with 1/2 bottle alarms would seem to be more practical.

I think the current ideas of accountability, RIT and PAR concepts in use by most departments are extremely flawed. Time for a mental enema and rethink the whole concept of the value of life and increase our chances of survival.

[PA Volunteer]

LHS,
Thank you for your most insightful input, not to mention most useful. I'm still wondering why you waste your/our time with your completely useless posts. Instead of simply pointing out problems (any probie can do that), why don't you come up with an alternative? Here in PA, roll calls have worked very well at major incidents where you have 10, 15, 20 different pieces of apparatus working. Not to mention, it works well after transitional stages of a fire, i.e. offensive to defensive. As for your statistics on PASS devices ... that statistic (who knows where it's coming from) will most surely be outdated w/in the next year, if not already, with the change that many companies are making to integrated PASS devices. So, in other words LHS, thanks for nothing.
FFTRITT - as mentioned above, on major incidents (multiple alarms w/ all hands working) dispatch does a roll call at certain intervals (not sure exactly when), during/after evacuation and/or change to defensive position.

[LHS*]

//why don't you come up with an alternative?

Gee, that is old news, 6 years ago we bought radio transmitting PASS devices that turn themselves on, for all of our firefighters. We know the status of our firefighters every 12 seconds. We use trackers to locate downed firefighters in heavy smoke and darkness and all imagers transmit to command to monitor status and operations of our crews, oh we started that in 1988.

//why don't you come up with an alternative?

So let me ask you, what is your alternative, have you put your mouth where the firefighter meets the fire ground???

//Here in PA, roll calls have worked very well at major incidents where you have 10, 15, 20 different pieces of apparatus working

OH BULL! How long did that take? Worked well means no one was down, right? The system does not take into account the human beings 4 to 6 minute biological death factor now does it??? Get real!

//Not to mention, it works well after transitional stages of a fire, i.e. offensive to defensive.

Gee, so does ours, every 12 seconds. It isn't accountability if it doesn't work during the transitional stages is it???

//As for your statistics on PASS devices ... that statistic (who knows where it's coming from)

NFPA and USFA, is that good enough for you?

//that statistic ( not having the device on) will most surely be outdated w/in the next year,

Oh, everyone in the US fire service now has integrated PASS? Get real! At Harrisburg Expo the Dauphin County rigs you run with didn't all have integrated PASS, gee companies there were bragging about getting their first imagers this year(Lower Sawatra, etc).

OH, did anyone here the PASS devices sounding in Lake Worth, Houston, Mass, etc???? NO! So what good were they??? Unless the system tells command and all the sector commanders it is sounding it is worthless.

//that many companies are making to integrated PASS devices

Can you say ALL companies make them??

//on major incidents (multiple alarms w/ all hands working) dispatch does a roll call at certain intervals (not sure exactly when)

Gee, that is a good system when the users don't even know when they are being accounted!

//does a roll call at certain intervals

Can all firefighters hold their breath that long???

Do you happen to know when the roll calls (accountability) were conducted in Pittsburgh, Mass, and Houston? I'll make it easy on you, they were conducted at the exact same time, so one answer will work fine.

//dispatch does a roll call

Gee, not command, or safety or accountability, farm it out to dispatch eh?? I bet that ties up the radio for a while.

So thanks for your totally useless post, don't know when you call around, etc!

[Exp.chief51]

LHS*, Don't start this crap. He asked how your company accomplishes PAR's, not for you to start spouting off. You continually pick apart peoples posts about everything and destroy posts with your criticism. If you can't say anything nice, then SHUT THE HELL UP!

[LHS*]

[This message has been edited by LHS* (edited 05-15-2001).]

[LHS*]

Your right experienced chief, how dare I question the whole idea of PAR.

PAR is a wonderful way along with dog tags to determine who needs to be buried. I guess you could do it the day after as well as the day of.

Heck shoot for 1 hour and 10 minutes. That is what the pros do!

In direct answer to his question on when PAR, I say 12 seconds, every 12 seconds!

[Dalmatian90]

Hey Larry,
Do you have procedures or tools in place to backup or minimize the effect of failure of part of the radio-PASS system? Such as the failure of a base receiver that tracks all these units?

How do firefighters know their PASS is communicating with the Base before entering a hot zone?

Does the system run into problems with large structures, or "radio-unfriendly environments" like lots of metal? Can the person monitoring the base tell the difference between radio failures from being out of range, or being blocked by debris?

I'm assuming their is some active transmitting involved by the PASS back to the base. This will take much more power than a simple motion-detector circuit. How long do the batteries last? Are they rechargeable? How do you know when to replace/recharge the batteries? What happens when a firefighter's PASS battery dies during a fire?

With reliance on technology (not that it's bad) either redundancy needs to be built in, or manual procedures continued.

I think the wireless PASS is where we'll all be one day. But with any technology, to really find all the bugs, or even just the tweaks to improve it, they need to be used by more departments than are using them know. I believe the Grace system comes out of industry, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you have time there to test and tweak a system to know where/how it works around your plant...a luxury you don't have on the fireground usually.

Actually, this is a perfect candidate for a focused federal R&D project that could deploy the 5,000 or 10,000 units in different departments with different buildings and hazards to find out how to improve them and get them to the point departments are comfortable moving to that technology. Once departments are comfortable and start ordering volumes go up, prices go down, and we'll see more departments ordering them...what a great cycle.

[Halligan84]

I'd love to have electronic failure be my only concern. I'd still use radio PAR, but gotta admit, Radio PASS is the way to go.

[FD111]

Larry, I have the same question Dalmation has. Do you have a procedures if your radio pass does have a failure? Would any of your firefighters know how to do a manual PAR if they had to? Do you have a procedure in place when your department is on mutual aid, if the department you are mutual aiding does not have a radio pass system? How does it know exactly where each and every firefighter is on the fire ground? I mean does it know that firefighter "X" is in rehab, or working in sector 2, or is that firefighter just wondering around the scene? If the radio system does not do this, then how do you control free lancing on the fireground?
By the way, why do you intentionally rip people apart, when they ask a simple question? I have yet to see a posting by you, that has not been a direct attack. If this is the way you normally are with people, it amazes me that you still have people that want to volunteer for your department. Why don't you try teaching, or offering advice, rather than trying to act as if you know everything and everyone else knows nothing. If you didn't have your head so far up your a** then you might see that people are trying to learn something.

[LHS*]

///Do you have procedures or tools in place to backup or minimize the effect of failure of part of the radio-PASS system?

Sure

//Such as the failure of a base receiver that tracks all these units?

We have several receivers. Although never had a failure. Two receivers are on scene on all events minimum

//How do firefighters know their PASS is communicating with the Base before entering a hot zone?

They don't, command can tell before a crew is assigned by name who's system is working or not working throughout the event.

//Does the system run into problems with large structures, or "radio-unfriendly environments" like lots of metal?

Never experienced it with the enhanced receivers, repeaters etc.

//Can the person monitoring the base tell the difference between radio failures from being out of range, or being blocked by debris?

If we get an out of range signal we immediately call the member by name and find out what is going on. Working in pairs or better offers pretty good redundancy. All members have portables.

//I'm assuming their is some active transmitting involved by the PASS back to the base.

Every 12 seconds.

// This will take much more power than a simple motion-detector circuit. How long do the batteries last?

A bit over 4 months and we change them out every two.

// Are they rechargeable?

No which improves the reliability.

///How do you know when to replace/recharge the batteries?

The receiver and base tells you.

//What happens when a firefighter's PASS battery dies during a fire?

Newer had it happen, but if it did, several days before the fire every 5 minutes the device chirps and the receiver broadcasts the name of the person low on juice. In our system they'd never get inside the action circle without being discovered.

//With reliance on technology (not that it's bad) either redundancy needs to be built in, or manual procedures continued.

With dual PASS on all members entering a smoke zone, a tag is left behind that activates the radio PASS, so at worse we are better off than a standalone tag system.

//Actually, this is a perfect candidate for a focused federal R&D project that could deploy the 5,000 or 10,000 units in different departments with different buildings and hazards to find out how to improve them and get them to the point departments are comfortable moving to that technology.

Unfortunately the federal program won't hit the streets for at least 6 years. I can't think of any federal program that has helped firefighters on the street, can you?

//Once departments are comfortable and start ordering volumes go up, prices go down, and we'll see more departments ordering them...what a great cycle.

Amazing, isn't it? We as a service rarely do what is right or best, we do what is cheap.

// I have the same question Dalmation has. Do you have a procedures if your radio pass does have a failure?

If a base fails, nothing changes the 2nd base will still see what is going on. Withdrawal if a PASS device indicates n transmit.

//Would any of your firefighters know how to do a manual PAR if they had to?

It would be from command not the firefighter.

//Do you have a procedure in place when your department is on mutual aid, if the department you are mutual aiding does not have a radio pass system?

Everyone we'd fight structure fires with has the same system.

//How does it know exactly where each and every firefighter is on the fire ground?

We have an electronic tracker system that locates each member.

//I mean does it know that firefighter "X" is in rehab, or working in sector 2, or is that firefighter just wondering around the scene?

As command or the company officer assigns task they are assigned by unit and individual names, Joe and bill to vent roof off E-1, jack and bob to forcible entry rear off t-2, etc.

//If the radio system does not do this, then how do you control free lancing on the fireground?

The system tells you when each member arrives on the fire ground, what vehicle they were on, or POV. All members are assigned in pairs or better, all members report to staging or on a 1 rig event to the command rig for assignment.

[Adze]

////Would any of your firefighters know how to do a manual PAR if they had to?
//
//It would be from command not the firefighter.

Command would initiate it, but would the firefighters know what the heck was going on or how to respond?

[LHS*]

//but would the firefighters know how to respond?

Let's see, command could say any of the following:

"Engine 1 crew, sound off"

"Engine 1 crew Miller and Smith roll call"

"if you're not dead sound off."

Possible answers, "here", "yo", "we're still alive", "We're mostly alive", "we're still out of air", "what do you want?", "don't bother us we are saving lives", or "what?"

What do you suggest?

//but would the firefighters know what the heck was going on

A better quetion would be would they care? Someone in charge asks their status and they answer, what else would they want to know?

[FFTRITT]

Why must it be that every time someone asks for information, someone has to start a ****ing match instead of just answering the question posted. LHS* - I appreciate your comments and it seems to be an excellent system. Unfortunately many companies don't have the $1000's (??) for the system. (although what is the cost of a human life?)
But back to the original question - if you have a "MAYDAY" call and are not using LHS*'s system, how do you do your PAR? Using a radio to call every member?? - only works if every member has a radio, which they may not.

[LHS*]

//how do you do your PAR? Using a radio to call every member?? - only works if every member has a radio, which they may not.

Houston's LODDs did not have radios to PAR.

[Dalmatian90]

I can't think of any federal program that has helped firefighters on the street, can you?
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/olmsa/...trans/fire.htm

[LHS*]

?//I can't think of any federal program that has helped firefighters on the street, can you? http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/olmsa/...trans/fire.htm

Not really, Litton (fit in your bunker coat pocket liquified compressed air) and Scott (4.5) both were awarded bids to design what Nasa talks about. You can blame Scott not NASA for the air pack. Gee look how little has changes since 1971. The really cool system was never built.

[Dalmatian90]

Not really, Litton (fit in your bunker coat pocket liquified compressed air) and Scott (4.5) both were awarded bids to design what Nasa talks about. You can blame Scott not NASA for the air pack.

Interesting. Scott was awarded the bid. Who paid them?

Sounds to me like federal dollars where spent in a focused R&D effort to advance a technology for firefighters.

[PA Volunteer]

FFTRITT - I would like to apologize on behalf of LHS for turning yet another post into a place for him to try to overcompensate for lack of something (who knows exactly what). So, to LHS, thanks for ruining FFTRITT's post and not answering his question. It's extremely sad that the only place you can prove, or try to prove, yourself is in cyberspace. I actually do feel badly for you, LHS. I refuse to even respond to any of your specific comments. Nonetheless, stay safe.

[mongofire_99]

FFTRITT

How does your company accomplish them, when things go bad?

Generally, and I hate to admit it but sometimes the truth hurts, we wait for things to go bad then we call everybody out and get one. Only takes 5 or 10 minutes.

I've been to the fire where no progress was made for the first several minutes, IC calls me on the radio, and said "Go see why we ain't makin' no progress in there" and never called a PAR to find out if the crew was OK.

Sometimes dispatch remembers to call command at 20-minute intervals to remind them a PAR is needed.

LHS*

I can't think of any federal program that has helped firefighters on the street, can you?

I can't think of any federal program that has helped anyone or made anything better, much less affordable...

By your posts, I figure you are using the GEM System or something similar, but what is this electronic tracker you speak of?

PA Volunteer

thanks for ruining FFTRITT's post and not answering his question.

Question - We all have heard about PAR's - How does your company accomplish them, when things go bad?

Answer - ...we bought radio transmitting PASS devices that turn themselves on, for all of our firefighters. We know the status of our firefighters every 12 seconds.