1. #1
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    Question things you cant believe you hear

    The department I am in is a suburban volunteer department about 40 min. outside of NYC. I belong to a ladder co. We try to keep the SOP of ladder in front of the building at all calls. Time and time again we have to ask the engine's to reposition their rigs to let us in. An officer of an engine co. has told us in response to us repeating ourselves to maintain the SOP that " if we really have to our ladders ( one of them is a 1982 low-riding segrave rear mount )could reach any given building by extending it over the engine that occupies the front of the fireground. "

    Does anyone have a problem with this statement ?
    " truck till the casket drops "

    www.lynbrookfd.org

    My views and opinions do not represent the views and standards of the Department or Company that I belong to.

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    Lightbulb

    The first question would be "What do the SOP/SOG state"? If they state that the front of the fire building should be left open for the ladder truck, as it is in many places, then take it up with the Chief. A ladder in front is a good idea although situations dictate operations in some cases.

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    i should have been more specific SOP # 14 states "When possible, the first arriving engine will be positioned just past the fire building and not in a position that will block other responding apparatus. "
    Believe it or not this statement was made in front of all 4 chiefs and nothing was resolved at that time, maybe we gotta wait till the next call .
    " truck till the casket drops "

    www.lynbrookfd.org

    My views and opinions do not represent the views and standards of the Department or Company that I belong to.

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    Just wait until the engine company cannot gain access to the interior until there has been ventilation and they're screaming at you wondering why you are not up on the roof. Should be a fun day then...

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    Talking

    Besides being good practice, it is apparent that your SOP states what is to be done. If Chief Officers, and there are some, fail to correct it, then you have to keep performing your duties the best that you can. Ladder work is important and everybody using the same SOP/SOG is also important. I would document it and send it up the line. One day, that scenario could end in disaster. Take it up the line and make them enforce their guidelines or remove them.
    Last edited by JayTL; 01-30-2002 at 07:21 PM.

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    Theboxalarm,

    We have tried numerous times to address your same concern about the pumper being placed where the aerial should be. We have gotten some success with these two policies, they may help you.

    All of our apparatus is in one station so this may be easier for us than others, but here it goes.

    1. Any structure alarm/fire our 75' LTI Quint goes first or at the same time as the attack engine.

    2. 2 Separate routes will be taken by the apparatus to the location. In theory the trucks should face each other when on scene. (your driver has to know were he is going)

    Each apparatus will then position near the corners with the ladder truck favoring the center.

    Also, because of our daytime volunteer staffing is considerably less than after 5:00 PM, The ladder truck rolls first during the day no matter what type of structure alarm call it is.

    hope this helped.

    Ken
    ideas expressed & posted in the forum(s) are my own.

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    tom427428,

    You didn't mention how tall your structures are. IFSTA's Aerial Apparatus Driver/Operator Handbook 1st edition shows the positioning you refer to as a possibility for structures shorter than 5 stories.

    Have you tried extending over an out of place engine company ?

    I still believe the other writers have posted, truck positioning is the priority.
    BE SAFE
    Before Everything, Stop And First Evaluate

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    tom427428

    Ken,

    The person starting the thread and asking the question is Tom

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    to answer jddobson's question

    on residential alarms we have a 100' rear mount segrave LTI ladder


    on commercial alarms we have a 93' spartan LTI tower ladder

    with commercial alarms there would be a possibilty of allowing an engine in front of the building but our streets are narrow being a suburban/urban area

    in the end we all have to work togehter, a little compromise never killed anyone
    " truck till the casket drops "

    www.lynbrookfd.org

    My views and opinions do not represent the views and standards of the Department or Company that I belong to.

  10. #10
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    Question

    Hasn't anyone here heard the addage "You can stretch a hose, but you can't stretch a ladder"?

    I sure wouldn't want to try to position a ladder over the top of a committed engine...

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    Suppose you extend over the engine and (accidentally)
    drop say a haligan on the roof. Just kidding.

    It should really be looked at especially if it
    is in your SOP.

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    Whats the point in having SOP/SOG's if they aren't followed?

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    great points mike w and F02
    " truck till the casket drops "

    www.lynbrookfd.org

    My views and opinions do not represent the views and standards of the Department or Company that I belong to.

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    This has always been one of those subjects that I can't believe an engine boss doesn't get. I have heard an old adage that goes: "The engine has a thousand (or more) feet of hose while the truck only has a hundred feet of aerial." The math seems easy to me. Part of properly placing the engine is thinking about where the truck needs to go, and giving it the space to get there.

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    Just as a final point I wanted to emphasize the need for documenting the actions of the engine company if they are not following SOP/SOG, especially if you have broached the subject with them and they laugh it off. In todays litigious society, the disregard for Standard Procedures can hurt you, the department, and the citizen. Watch your back on this.

    Jay

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    thanks jay,

    we have been doing that to remember when an officers meeting comes up
    we have solid facts to back up our complaints
    " truck till the casket drops "

    www.lynbrookfd.org

    My views and opinions do not represent the views and standards of the Department or Company that I belong to.

  17. #17
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    Default Train the drivers!

    I think the key is education. Educate the engine co. officers and drivers on the needs of the Truck and where it should go for best operational advantage.
    I would...but no!

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