1. #1
    Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    40

    Default Civilian Fire Fatalities

    Does anyone where in the world has the consistently highest civilian fire fatality rate? What is it?


    What about in the U.S.? It's gotta be some remote place with no fire protection.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    DFDRev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Detroit, MI
    Posts
    142

    Default

    FEMA has some data on that...

    http://www.usfa.fema.gov/nfdc/profiles.htm
    www.cafepress.com/firerev

  3. #3
    Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    40

    Default

    Right, but I was looking for a closer looks...at least by city, county whatever.

  4. #4
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    99

    Default

    No DCFF, you donít have to look for a place with no fire protection or some rural area. Just look in your own city. You have 19 times higher chance of dying in a fire their than Rhode Island. 3.33 times higher than the entire state of California. DC is so bad they rank behind more than 35 states. The whole thing is very sad.

    Rural states, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Oregon, and Texas have I/3 the death rates for civilians.

    It isnít all about fire trucks and firefighters. Following fire codes play big too!

    The fire death rate for children in DC is twice the national average.

    Oh for whatever it is worth the fire services dirty little secret is 60% of all the fire deaths in the US occurred where there wasnít a working smoke detector. SO if youíd like to cut deaths 60% make sure detectors are in place and work.

    One more thought for you, The District of Columbia has the second highest fire death rate in the United States.

  5. #5
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default

    QUOTE]What about in the U.S.? It's gotta be some remote place with no fire protection.[/QUOTE]

    Why remote? Less people live in remote area's, thus the term remote. FCVFD pointed out a great stat about the District. Where there is little to no effort placed on prevention then high death rates can be expected. This is not to say that a city that is well prepared to deliver safety information and use the codes and standards to help its citizens will not suffer fire deaths, they will. However, large urban area's that focus more on one discipline of the fire service, as opposed to well rounded services, will see a jump in the fire death rate.

    Just my pennies worth.

  6. #6
    MembersZone Subscriber

    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    Here, There, Everywhere
    Posts
    4,191

    Default

    Although I'm not sure what exactly DCFF was asking, I would have to say from experience that rural areas typically, while not having a high number of fires....still have higher fire and life losses per actual working fire than urban areas in similar structures.

    Although one couldn't compare life losses in high-rise structures in urban vs. rural (there isn't a comparable structure in rural areas obviously) one could compare perhaps detached single-family dwelling fires in rural. The time lost in response time and setting up a plan of action based on how many members show up. Plus the facts that many (but certainly not all) rural volunteer outfits are less proficient and aggressive on fire ground tactics. This comes from my personal experience in rural vol. depts.

    One though would also have to eliminate regional bias because the terms "rural" and "volunteer Depts" vary in practical application depending on what region one might find it self in. Example... a "rural" area of Vermont might have more 10x homes per sq. mile than a "rural" area of Nebraska. Also the skills and response times of Kentland, MD Vol. FD Companies Varies greatly to that of a Vol. company (brush truck) in MayDay, Riley Co. Kansas. ( .5 calls per year!)

    However I can say without a doubt that I have been to more "grounders" in rural areas than I ever have been in the Urban cities that have I worked in.

    While yes there are more fires in urban areas..once a fire starts, the ability of the fire departments resources to effectively bring it under control with minimal loss of life and property, I would say leans in favor of the urban departments. Just as survival rates for medical emergenices are lower in remote and rural areas the effectiveness and efficeny of a fire department is less in a rural enviroment than in urban areas.

    Also as for fire and building codes...the rural areas of the Mid West by far are infinately more lax in regards to requirements and enforcement of the codes mentioned.

    Two Cents from a fireman.

  7. #7
    Forum Member
    PAVolunteer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Dauphin County, PA
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    Wow Larry, you never miss a chance to make a personal attack on someone. Granted, all the information you said was true, and you've proven over and over again how much knowledge you have. Please, I'm begging you, be more objective and present both sides of things. Your vast knowledge could go so much further. For instance, why not also point out that there are also plenty of rural states that have higher fire fatalities per capita than D.C. (i.e. Alabama, Kansas, Louisiana, Tennessee, West Virginia, Montana, Arkansas, Mississippi, and Alaska)?

    Obviously, we often (almost always) disagree on just about about everything. Just the same, I'm sure there's a ton that I (and others) could learn from you. I'm asking for your help.

    Stay Safe

  8. #8
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Well letís compare facts. There are only two paid departments in Delaware. So does paid versus volunteer matter?

    Average fire loss per fire $714.00

    Now states with more paid guys
    Indiana $5,846.00
    Maryland $6,581.00
    Illinois $4,859.00
    Minnesota $7,312.00
    New York $8,371.00

    Want to talk rural, how about one fire station every 60 miles Nevada and 10 paid FDís out of 166. 1.12 Deaths per 1000 fires

    Illinois 2.56
    California 2.16


    Iowa 4.77
    Michigan 4.07

    How about civilian injuries per 1000 fires ?
    Nevada 0.01
    Massachusetts 24.86
    California 16.50
    Illinois 17.54
    Maryland 15.88
    Ohio 23.84
    Virginia 22.52

    It does not look like this fire problem fits into a pretty package.

    You'll note I did say DC was 35th, that means I could have said they are better than 15 others. Doesn't it?

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    PAVolunteer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Dauphin County, PA
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    Yes Larry, you said they were 35th, so obviously there are 15 states that are worse. That part of it gets lost though when you make it into a personal attack. Thus, the issues are not presented evenly and fairly. Honestly, it seems that you have toned things down a little bit. I appreciate that and have honestly already learned things from your discussions. By no means do I want you to be all warm and fuzzy. With that said ... I appreciate your response.

    You said it though, this fire problem does not fit into a pretty little package. There is not one statistic, or group of 10,000 statistics that will explain this and pinpoint an answer. With the variables that each area faces, it is impossible. However, there are common things that we all can do ... i.e. codes enforcement, working smoke detectors, fire prevention and education, etc.

    Stay Safe

  10. #10
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Ö..there are also plenty of rural states that have higher fire fatalities per capita than D.C. ((i.e. Alabama, Kansas, Louisiana, Tennessee, West Virginia, Montana, Arkansas, Mississippi, and Alaska)?

    Maybe we need to define rural!

    Alabama is rural with a population of 4,447,100 88 people per square mile?
    Kansas is rural with a population of 2,688,418 33 people per square mile?
    Louisiana is rural with a population of 4.4 mil 102 people per square mile?
    , Tennessee is rural with a population of 5.6 mil 138 people per square mile?
    , West Virginia is rural with a population of 1.8 mil 75 people per square mile?
    , Arkansas is rural with a population of 2.6 mil 51 people per square mile?
    , Mississippi is rural with a population of 2.8 mil 60 people per square mile?

    Yes Montana is rural with a population of 0.9 mil 6 people per square mile?
    Yes Alaska is rural with a population of 0.6 1 people per square mile?

    Notice, that Montana is Rural but has fewer injuries per fire than all but one of the states and has lower fire loss rates than 7 of the states, and has essentially the same death rates or lower than the rest all with 2 to 5 times the population.

    Ö. plenty of rural states that have higher fire fatalities per capita than D.C.

    Sure do but not per 1000 fires. Not even close. One big fire event and a small population state like Montana is on top of the chart. Every third year Montana has twice the national death rate but 2 of every three years for the last 2 decades they are lower than the national average. Over 20 years they average in the best 20 states. Where do the people in Montana die? If you get rid of the unlimited daytime speed limit, the fire deaths go way down. In Alaskaís case get rid of plane crashes with 66 deaths per 1000 events and they look as good as the other states you listed.

    Back to rural:

    22 people died in MT, AK 23, 100 in AL, 130 in TN, 106 in Miss

    DC is one town!
    Last edited by fcvfd; 02-05-2002 at 04:35 PM.

  11. #11
    Forum Member
    PAVolunteer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Dauphin County, PA
    Posts
    1,139

    Default

    Well Larry, I tried to step down and give you the opportunity to do the same and act human. You have slapped the hand shake away and once again proven your worthlessness to mankind. Congratulations. I retract all that I said. Any personal attacks on my part were simply a response to yours, or someone else's. I should not have stooped to your level, but nonetheless I did. My goal is to help and to learn. You have made it painfully obvious that your goal is not the same.

    You have also, once again, proven your skill of making statistics say what ever you want them to say. Keep up your attempt at compensating for your lack of whatever it is you lack. Maybe someday you will succeed.

    Stay Safe

  12. #12
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default Huh?

    Also as for fire and building codes...the rural areas of the Mid West by far are infinately more lax in regards to requirements and enforcement of the codes mentioned.
    I know that out in the rural area's building codes can be lax, but in the middle of an urban area sits some of the worst violations of building and fire codes known to man. They also tend to hold many more people. The "city" boys may be able to get on scene quick, with a lot of resources, but multiple deaths occur in "many" of our largest cities.

    I think FCVFD is showing how we think we know about the fire problem in America, but we really don't. We have to look at it objectively. If a guy from "The city of Doe" with 25,000 firefighters feels that his department is best, he is going to balk at statistics that show the problem differently. We like to believe that "this little department" can't possibly save more lives than this "major one". However, in instances, through education, that is exactly what happens.

  13. #13
    Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    40

    Default

    I, for one, am not particularly offended by fcvfd's remarks. There's no doubt that the DC Govt / DCFEMS could do a better job at prevention...but when you're fire prevention division only works about 15-20h a week, what're you gonna do? The companies do what tasks they are assigned, but it's tough to focus on prevention when you're running down the road 5-25 times a day, even if 50% are for things that probably didn't really need an ambulance, much less a suppression unit.

    I have pride in MY job, i have faith in my company, and my fellow firefighters. Most of these problems are beyond the reach of me, my company. Some of them are beyond the reach of the department. A few of them are probably beyond the reach of the DC govt.

    "The fire problem varies from region to region in the United States. This often is a result of climate, poverty, education, demographics, and other causal factors."

    In DC, you are generally either very rich, or very poor. If you are poor, you probably aren't very well educated, as the DCPS isn't the best. Most of the deaths aren't in the "rich white" section of town. Those few deaths in that section of town, are, as typical to all fire deaths, mostly the very old and the very young.

    Of that list, DC is the only "state" that is entirely urban. I know for a fact that across the country, fire deaths are highest in the extremely rural, and the extremely urban areas.

    All in all, the DCFD is pretty good at fighting fires, but beyond that, they're (we're) pretty bad.

    What I was looking for, though, was what is the death rate when there is NO fire protection, prevention, etc. Call it a class 10 department. It's not exactly accurate, but, I'd still like to know.

  14. #14
    Forum Member
    daysleeper47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    203

    Default

    On a happier note, the Youngstown Fire Deptartment in Ohio had zero civilian or firefighters deaths in 2001. The protect 85,000 people with 9 stations. They ran 406 structure fires in 2000 (last year I could find these stats) and 3012 total alarms. They deserve a lot of credit for that. Few cities of that size can say the same.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Dalmatian90's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Posts
    3,120

    Default

    Frankly, I'd doubt rural areas have higher fire fatality rates than urban area.

    First, the accurate way to measure fatality and injury rates is per fire, not population. Per fire gives you an effective measure from one area to another.

    I know that out in the rural area's building codes can be lax, but in the middle of an urban area sits some of the worst violations of building and fire codes known to man.

    There's generally a *huge* difference in who is affected by lax building codes in rural and urban areas.

    What's your typical rural residence? One family? The occasional house with an in-laws apartment maybe. The occasional duplex. Maybe even an honest to goodness rooming house a whopping 2-1/2 stories high.

    So you have lax building codes. Fire isn't going to spread to any other buildings, unless you have unusually high fire danger conditions. It sounds cold, but only the family that occupies the house is going to die, and if your trapped on the 2nd floor, that's an easily survivable jump. I'm not advocating lax building or fire codes in rural areas -- just saying the life danger isn't there you see in urban areas.

    Now turn around and have urban fires. Even in a "perfect six" (two triple deckers together) you suddenly have six families living in the same building. Each family isn't only at risk from their actions, but at risk from the neglect of the landlord, and risk from the poor housekeeping or fights of their neighbors. Three stories jumping becomes dangerous. As you get into even taller buildings, self-escape becomes impractical if you can't get to a fire escape.

    Additionally, there are social differences between city and country. Not to say the country is pristine -- last year I personally worked to codes from Heroin Overdoses, and I don't know what others we had that year. But as you get into depressed urban areas you have a much greater concentration of people with problems, whether it's addiction, mental illness, poor education, or whatever. Not only are they more concentrated, but living more in "communal" housing where multiple families share the same building, the actions of when dreg affects everyone living in the building. Even if the other apartments are kept immaculate, the one with poor housekeeping catches fire, it jeopardizes everyone in the building.

    Urban departments may arrive quicker to make rescues, but they also have a lot more rescues to be made. I'd imagine that if you had statistics on it, you would find urban departments have a much higher percentage of their fires "with persons trapped" then rural areas simply because of building styles and demographics. If you have more people trapped, you have both more rescues and more fatalities.

    People's attitudes can make a big difference -- whether they care if they cause a fire or not.
    Fire Codes can make a big difference, allowing people to self-evacuate or simply using sprinklers to contain the fire.
    Normal building construction can make a difference -- Western Europe tends to use a lot more masonry and typically smaller rooms then the U.S., so right from the get go the fires don't get as large or collapse as easily.
    Society's norms make a difference too -- certain countries it's normal for each room to have it's own door that is kept closed. That limits the spread of smoke and fire dramatically. In the U.S., other than when someone's in the Bathroom it seems to us odd when someone keeps the door to a room closed.
    How many people are exposed to accidents or actions of others makes a difference too -- apartment buildings and hotels expose everyone to the actions of one. Single family homes expose far fewer people.

  16. #16
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    99

    Default

    Ö.even if 50% are for things that probably didn't really need an ambulance, much less a suppression unit.

    The greatness for the future is average UNION guy being believable and telling admin not to run all the kings men on all calls. I applaud Las Vegas for not running on any alarm and code unless there is a confirmed fire. Nothing goes, zilch. Some big cities over respond to the tune of 300% on EMS.

    Put pros in dispatch who can triage calls. Allow company officers to go by feel and increase or decrease response.

    Making sure you place a smoke detector on every possible call will have a huge effect, but place one with a non removable 10 year battery. Always test what is in the house.

    Ö.What I was looking for, though, was what is the death rate when there is NO fire protection, prevention, etc. Call it a class 10 department

    Here are the states with the most class 10ís and their order of fire deaths

    Top Ten States with the Class 10ís by number:
    1st most Class 10ís, Oklahoma 33rd in fire deaths,
    2nd Texas 4th best,
    3. Indiana 10th best,
    4. Maine 20th, ,
    5. North Dakota 17th

    So no Class 10ís other than Oklahoma donít do worse. The average is top 16.

  17. #17
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    DFW area of Texas
    Posts
    660

    Default

    Did we ever define rural?

    Do we really have rural states or would it be better phrased rural areas as all states have urban areas to throw off the pop/sq. mile ratio?

    If we cut a continuous chunk of rural America out(not a pick and choose chunk) that ovbiously had more area but an equal poulation to DC for example (maybe north of the Red River to the Moore/OKC area and east and west to the state lines) who would have the higher:

    A) incident rate (residential structures)
    B) civilian death rate
    c) civilian injury rate

    Anyway, DCFF, I don't know the answer to your very good question...


    (but I do know that DC has one of the worst school systems in the nation and spends more money per student than anyone else and that we Americans think we'll fix our education problem with more money...)
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  18. #18
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    War-Town
    Posts
    143

    Default

    fcvdf;

    why dont you compare DC to cities rather than states?

    I understand that DC is its own political body and whatnot, but its characteristics are that of a city, not a state.
    Last edited by ggtruckie; 02-06-2002 at 03:45 AM.

  19. #19
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    99

    Default

    ....So are you saying DC is the worst,

    Oh noI was quite clear 2nd worst according to their own Fire Department press releases.

    .....if not why are you singling them out?

    I'm not anymore than the man from DC singled out rural areas as being the worst.

    ...DC is much different being that is does not have ANY rural area what so ever like all the states, they are completely urban, and will have a higher rate if you compare them to states, why dont you compare them to other cities to put the statistics on an equal base?

    Oh, I'm sorry ok, "New York City had one of the lowest per capita rates of civilian fire-related deaths in 1997. New York City's civilian fire death rate of 2.0 per 100,000 residents is lower than fire death rates in Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Newark, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Washington D.C. " DC's is 11.2 per 100K.

    ....DC is a city and cannot be compared to states, they are two differant playing fields.

    Sure it can death per 1000 fires, dollar loss per fire, injuries per 1000 fires. NFPA and USFA have done so for years.

    .......Q.U.I.N.T: Quite Unreliable Instrament, and Never a Truck

    That flies in the face of the thousands in use every day as trucks. nad in many departments have been purchased and purchased again for generations of chiefs, now doesn't it?

  20. #20
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default

    GGTruckie

    In the signature part of your message change it to Instrument, please.


    Your comments about QUINTS are no doubt based on research, experience with them and a detailed knowledge of the capabilities of both ladder trucks and the aforementioned quints.

    Please, if you would, provide details on why QUINTS are on your poop list. Stay safe and Dry!

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    DFDRev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Detroit, MI
    Posts
    142

    Exclamation AMAZED!

    It never ceases to amaze me how quickly a thread turns into a ******ing match between you guys!
    www.cafepress.com/firerev

  22. #22
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default DFDRev

    I am sorry if I have offended you. At times, my direct style of writing is much more harsh than how I would normally ask questions or engage in conversation. Thanks for the heads up.

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    DFDRev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Detroit, MI
    Posts
    142

    Talking

    Oh, I'm not offended - just amazed! I appreciate your thoughtfulness, though.

    I'm just glad my department issues boots to the chaplains - you need 'em in here!
    Last edited by DFDRev; 02-06-2002 at 03:35 PM.
    www.cafepress.com/firerev

  24. #24
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    Posted by fcfvd...

    The greatness for the future is average UNION guy being believable and telling admin not to run all the kings men on all calls.

    Larry, you just had to start bashing unionized firefighters, didn't you? Some administrations have a nasty habit of not listening to the troops. They sit in their version of the ivory tower (the corner office) close the door and refuse to listen to any ideas because they did not think of them. They suffer from the I syndrome until something goes wrong...then it becomes the you screwed up syndrome! Some of the brightest minds in the fire service to not wear the gold bugles! We have to respond to incidents as we are told to do. If we don't, we can be charged with abandonment, dereliction of duty and insubordination.

    I applaud Las Vegas for not running on any alarm and code unless there is a confirmed fire. Nothing goes, zilch.

    I think that Las Vegas' stance on alarm response will backfire on them. They are relying on security staff and maintenance personnel to determine if there is a fire or not. If they dimiss it as just another false alarm (as many do..it's human nature!) there will be delayed notification, more life hazard and more property damage.
    They will eventually have a fire with fatatlities because of this policy and people like you will be the first in line to crucify the firefighters, line officers and incident commanders!

    Some big cities over respond to the tune of 300% on EMS.

    300% response on EMS calls? I don't think so. You are the wizard of statistics...verify your data...name the "big cities".

    Put pros in dispatch who can triage calls. Allow company officers to go by feel and increase or decrease response.

    Maintenance called and said there's no fire, and we haven't received any other calls,so I don't have to tone anybody out...but I'll call the Captain and ask him what he wants to do...or maybe I'll call Ms. Cleo , the psychic and ask her if she sees a fire in the future at this location!

    A professional dispatcher would get the trucks on the road! Send the appropriate response, you can always return them if they are not needed. Most residential apartment complexes and commerical occupancies have staff who will call dispatch to let them know what caused the alarm. I would think in this day and age that most fire chiefs would trust the instincts of their company officers and allow them to increase or decrease the alarm assignment accordingly. You still have to send a truck out to verify the situation!


    Making sure you place a smoke detector on every possible call will have a huge effect, but place one with a non removable 10 year battery. Always test what is in the house.

    Larry , you are forgetting human nature again. What is going to stop someone from disabling a smoke detector because it goes off everytime they cook and it bothers them? If it's battery operated, they take the battery out or remove the detector. If it's hard wired, they either unplug it or disable the circuit breaker!

    Public fire education is the key, but you can't knock John and Jane Q. Public over the head with a hammer to make them listen! There will always be those who ignore fire safety and fire alarm activations...at their own peril and ours!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 02-06-2002 at 03:45 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  25. #25
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    War-Town
    Posts
    143

    Default

    fcvfd;

    Thanks for the info

    as per 1000 fire yes that can be compared to states but the other info in my opinion should be compared to cities.

    As for the quint thing, it is my opinion, and it also belongs in a differant thread. but in short those that have riden on them complain that truck work no longer gets done on a fire, cause evryone is running in with a hose. it is my opinion and think this is still america and i am entilted to my opinion, right?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register