1. #226
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    Thumbs down

    15 pages of B---hing and name calling. Nice. I vote to close this thread.

    Hopefully there can be some compromise and understanding in the DC-MD-NOVA area between all the sides....one thing is for sure this definitely didn't do any good.

    Good luck and Be safe to all of you.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  2. #227
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    Cool Agreeing to Disagree

    Thanks for agreeing to disagree. Just let me make a couple of points why I think this whole thing is wrong.
    * I was a loyal IAFF member for 8 years, all the while volunteering in PG, nothing wrong with it then. In fact, it was during my time as an IAFF member that I filled in a few times for the career guy's at my volunteer station so they could get off.
    * Some of the guy's from L-36 have been volunteering while being members of L-36 for 15 - 20 years or more and there was no problem up till now.
    * There are IAFF members volunteering in stations with Locals all over the country and the guy's from PG are the only ones being singled out for enforcement of the rule. (Selective Persecution)
    * And I'm sure I'll be corrected if IM wrong, but doesn't it say, or didn't it say, "discourage from" not "prohibited from" volunteering in a jurisdiction with an organized local?
    * The argument of the loss of jobs in my opinion is "null and void" as long as IAFF members continue to take jobs away from union workers on their days off.
    I'm sorry, that was more than a couple but I wanted to make sure I got my point across and hopefully I did, and that is, there is only one group of people being targeted for this rule enforcement. If this rule was being enforced through out the entire membership of the IAFF it may have been a different story, but it's not. It was initiated by L-1619 and it targets only those members that volunteer in PG.
    Now for my biased opinion and for this I will have to repeat myself:
    This is nothing but L-1619's tactic of retribution against a certain few people who they have issues with, and their attempt to try and bully and force the PG county government into hiring more dues paying members for their organization.
    Unfortunately this tactic is going to put not only the citizens of PG in great risk, but also the members of their own local and the rest of the volunteers.
    I have been fortunate in the past few years to have the chance to have personal involvement in the budget process and funding of the fire department. You would think that after 9-11, elected officials would realize the fire department is not a good place to cut and under fund a budget.
    "If" L-1619 is effective in getting rid of over 150 active volunteers they are seriously wrong if they think it will force the PG county government to hire more career firefighters. (I hope everyone doesn't mind, I have always spelled firefighter as one word and will continue to do so) My opinion is, some one will have to be seriously injured or die before they will even address the issue. So they are putting their own members safety and health in jeopardy. Nuff said about that.
    As for your afterthought:
    Jam, you have apparently been around a while and I think you will agree to this: The QUALITY of the average volunteer has decreased tremendously since you, or even I, started. (Same could be said about the career service). That is some of the reason why we in Montgomery County have to deal with the crap that we are having forced upon us.... Just a thought...
    You are absolutely correct, I agree 100%. Minimum training level to be operational in PG is FF1 and EMT. That’s fine to get you started, but after that training should be mandatory all the way through FF3. If someone is going to come in here to do this job and all they are going to do is the minimum FF1 and EMT, then all's they are doing is coming to get their jollies riding on the big red fire engine and aren't really serious about doing the job. As for the same going for the career side, I understand PG has had to lower the score for the entrance exam to 60 in order to get more people qualified. Pitiful, the citizens deserve better than this!
    See, another thing I agree with L-1619 with. Shoot, I'm not that hard to get along with. During the USA hockey game tomorrow I'll throw one back for you!
    USA, USA, USA
    Peace!

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    Default IAFF & volunteering

    The IAFF discourages career FF's from volunteering in FDs that employ FFs. To me it makes perfect sense but that is probably the least significant issue here! Most FDs insurance benefits do not cover injuries sustained while VOLUNTEERING in another FD OFF DUTY. I'd worry more about that than IAFF trying to increase membership!
    The views expressed above are my opinion(s) and do not reflect those of my employer or IAFF Local.

  4. #229
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    Default JAM...

    Just an FYI...
    It is not just happening in PG County. All the Jurisdictions around PG/DC are enforcing it also. It just so happens PG happened to be the place that because a "news story".

    There is some detailed info on that in previous posts I have made... Probably AFTER page 9

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    Talking Hey Chopper!

    You are correct; it seems that the jurisdictions that boarder PG are jumping on L-1619’s band wagon and trying to enforce the by-law, with the exception of one. But PG is where it all started, and in order for them to be successful they needed the area locals help in enforcing their resolution on members who volunteer in PG.
    This whole thing started with L-1619 trying to retaliate against one volunteer in PG. They brought him up on charges, but the charges were thrown out because the volunteer was not in an organization identified as a “Rival Organization”. This caused the birth of Resolution 43, naming every volunteer corporation in PG as a “Rival Organization”.
    Now to my knowledge, with the exception of about 8 or 10 people from Montgomery, the only other volunteers I know of who are being brought up on charges are the IAFF members who volunteer in PG. If you know of any other jurisdiction that has any volunteers being brought up on charges for volunteering in another jurisdiction that has an IAFF local maybe you can share them with us.
    Can you explain, since this is an IAFF by-law, why it isn’t being enforced across the country? Why just here?
    And is every local that has a career/volunteer system going to have piggy back on Resolution 43 and name each individual volunteer corporation as a rival organization in order to enforce this IAFF by-law?
    And doesn’t the by-law say “discourage” and not “prohibit”?
    If L-1619 hadn’t started this action, would L-1664 be doing it?
    I don’t know how long the IAFF has been in PG but how come this by-law has been ignored up until now?
    One last thing, I commend the President of a local for having the courage, fortitude, commitment and leadership to take a stand that he knows will be an unpopular one and one that they will take heat for. I commend them for not letting themselves be sucked into the personal, self serving agenda of another local and concentrating there efforts on what there job is and that’s to serve the members of their local. I believe that L-1619 has started rolling a snowball that they don’t know how to stop and they will drag down and blacken the eye of any other local that wants to jump on board with them. (Just my personal opinion though)
    Peace!

    PS, If anyone wants to check out information concerning Resolution 43 you can go to mrvfd.org. You can see the actual resolution, letters of charges that are being sent and letters being sent against resolution 43 to elected officials.

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    Jam.
    P.G. just got there first. this has been in the works in montgomery for some time. your answer to why not other places. it had to start someplace.

  7. #232
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    Man. I read the Resolution word by word and its definitely directed to the volunteers of PG county.

    Now, I read the Washington Post article that speaks of a class action suit against the union, and how hundreds of vollies could be gone. That looks real good for the union.

    From Post article-"...Public policy aside," she said, "this also possibly constitutes a restraint of trade and unfair labor practice because it treats some of the nearly 1,200 volunteers differently because they're union members..."


    Then there is the letter from the Chairman of the National Volunteer Fire Council which again paints a nice picture of the local.

    From the letter-"...The National Volunteer Fire Council views your union’s actions discouraging citizens from selflessly serving their community as an attack against the spirit of volunteerism that our country was built upon. These actions are also contrary to President Bush’s recent call for every American to commit to the service of their neighbors and their nation by volunteering in their local communities..."


    Again, I have to mention that besides this newsgroup I have seen absolutely no public support from the international offices or even other locals out of the area. The Iaff site doesn't even list this issue in its around the country section. Its got a article about charity ski competition next month but nothing about this "vital" fight for members safety.

    I hope for the best for all of you, but this looks terrible. Its going to come back and bite you in the A--.

    Let me remind you of the current situation nationally... From the AP-"The AFL-CIO, in an election year with control of Congress at stake, finds itself far short of the $35 million it wants to spend on campaigns and is weighing a mandatory assessment of its member unions to permanently fund its political activities..."-"...Much of the shortfall is being blamed on the recession, which has led to thousands of layoffs of union members, and unexpected expenses from the terrorist attacks. The federation also lost a big dues-paying member last year, the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, which has about 300,000 members"


    Now, looking at that...how eager do you believe they are to kick out a large group of PAYING members?????




    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  8. #233
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    Default SRW & Jam....

    SRW:
    I thought you wanted this thread closed? I see you are still hanging around...

    Don't believe everything you read in the papers. The volunteers here in Montgomery County have been fudging the numbers for years. Finally, when the FLSA blew through town, they admitted the 2000 volunteers they had really were about 300-400 that actually participated in any form of emergency response. The discrepancy accounted for Life Members (many of which are home bound or have not run calls in years, but are still on the rolls), administrative members that don't really do much of anything since each department has a paid secretary, Junior members that were not allowed to ride calls and Honorary members. If there were 1200 members being affected, why were only 43 named in the charges to Local 36? Sounds kinda low for 1/5th of the "Local's" involved, don't you think?

    SRW, what did you think the National Volunteer Fire Council would say??? Come on... You should no better than to even bring that up!

    Losing "paying members"? It is apparent you don't know about "service fee's". If the Local negotiates your contract with your employer they legally collect a "service fee". You don't have to be a union member, they still get your money. (Supported by a ruling in the US Supreme Court).

    Again SRW, I have to wonder from all your past posts if you really are an IAFF member or just posing as one...



    Jam:
    I tell you, I really like reading your posts. It is nice to see someone on here make sense with what they have to say and actually have an intelligent "conversation". (Even if we aren't always agreeing!)

    You asked "Can you explain, since this is an IAFF by-law, why it isn't being enforced across the country? Why just here?"

    It is up to the "home local" to bring other local members up on charges. If they don't bring it up they must not have a problem with it.

    You ask "And is every local that has a career/volunteer system going to have piggy back on Resolution 43 and name each individual volunteer corporation as a rival organization in order to enforce this IAFF by-law?"

    I don't know.

    You ask "If L-1619 hadn't started this action, would L-1664 be doing it?"

    We have been enforcing it with every member brought on charges since August of 2000. Long before Resolution 43.

    You ask "I don't know how long the IAFF has been in PG but how come this by-law has been ignored up until now?"

    I don't know. Maybe someone from Local 1619 could answer that.

    You state "One last thing, I commend the President of a local for having the courage, fortitude, commitment and leadership to take a stand that he knows will be an unpopular one and one that they will take heat for. I commend them for not letting themselves be sucked into the personal, self serving agenda of another local and concentrating there efforts on what there job is and that’s to serve the members of their local. I believe that L-1619 has started rolling a snowball that they don't know how to stop and they will drag down and blacken the eye of any other local that wants to jump on board with them."

    I don't. On this subject I find him a mockery of what a Union is all about and his actions contemptible. He is supporting his Union membership to interfere with the livelihoods of fellow IAFF Brothers and Sisters. Personally, I have had "black eye's" before and will probably have a few more before I am done... (That's just my opinion)

    Thanks again Jam for the posts. I look forward to our next exchange!
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-27-2002 at 08:41 PM.
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  9. #234
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    Chopper Lover...I guess I just can't get away from this thread. It keeps pulling me back in. I can't turn away a good debate.


    I am a member of the IAFF. I respect everyone who is a member of it or any other organization in the field (like the IAEP). I have been on the side of unorganized field providers and it sucks. The IAFF and others provide a voice to the actual workers in an agency. They give them support and security when there is trouble or injury. They are a way for employees to come together and help each other out. They give them a voice to lawmakers looking to shape policy.


    I support all of those ideas.

    However, I don't support trying to push out good members to support someone's agenda.

    A Volunteer is not a threat to job security. Its not a threat to your safety. Its not a "rival organization".

    Professional services in EMS and Fire will continue to grow in the US because of lack of time to volunteer, higher requirements, and recert/education requirements, and a change in what we do day to day.

    I know that many professional members of the IAFF got their start as volunteers in departments just like PG county. I know I did years ago. I can remember friends who got tons of experience which allowed them to become career providers suddenly turning on the very organization that helped get them that job. They would trash the volunteers, curse them, and speak of how they needed to go. It was unbelievable.

    Volunteers play a big role in providing services to communities. They raise tons of money for equipment and tools that would otherwise not be bought. They help connect the citizens to their department... emphasis on THEIR department.

    What you call a SCAB is someone giving their free time to their community. Regular people don't see things like you do. Regular people I know back that way are offended by the whole mess. They don't see it as you guys "protecting" yourselves. They see as you guys trying force the county into a corner at the expense of your own "brothers".

    The best way I can explain it is they see it like a carpenter forcing another carpenter to stop working for habitat for humanity for free because its costing him a job.

    Stop seeing this in a professional firefighter way and see it through the eyes of people who respect their local volunteers and don't even know what the Hell Resolution 43 means.

    I am against this because its a bad fight. Even if you are right and you win...the local is going to look bad. The IAFF is going to look bad. The career staff is going to look bad.

    You can't believe everything you read in the papers. We both know that, but most people do. Perception is Reality when it comes to public support. If you can get a bad slant in the Washington Post, one of the most liberal papers in America, how do think that looks to everyday people?

    We as a whole need to be proactive in our approach to increase staffing. Its city councils and county supervisors that make those choices. Getting in a P---ing contest between each other doesn't help a thing.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

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    SWR88... You have good points and you have shed good light on some issues; Extremely intelligent. I have looked at some things differently however...



    "A Volunteer is not a threat to job security. It's not a threat to your safety. It's not a "rival organization". "

    -I hope you have read all of the post. How can you say they are not a rival organization to those of us In Montgomery county (at least)? Do you think we make this stuff up? There are times I fear for my life and the lives of my co-workers dealing with these fools.


    "...Volunteers play a big role in providing services to communities. They raise tons of money for equipment and tools that would otherwise not be bought. They help connect the citizens to their department... emphasis on THEIR department..."

    -Yes they do... however, I have first hand expererience that they lie to the tax payers on where these monies are used. As a tax payer I am "OUTRAGED". Also as a tax payer, these are "MY" fire departments, "Not THEIRS. They are there to SERVE ME".


    "What you call a SCAB is someone giving their free time to their community. Regular people don't see things like you do. Regular people I know back that way are offended by the whole mess. They don't see it as you guys "protecting" yourselves. They see as you guys trying force the county into a corner at the expense of your own "brothers". "

    -Unfortunly most citizens here don't know the career people exsist. "AREN'T YOU ALL VOLUNTEERS?"


    "The best way I can explain it is they see it like a carpenter forcing another carpenter to stop working for habitat for humanity for free because its costing him a job."

    -Again, I'm sorry you are looking in on our system from a computer screen. I for one would not compare these A%#*%#ES to good people doing REAL charity work.


    "Stop seeing this in a professional firefighter way and see it through the eyes of people who respect their local volunteers and don't even know what the Hell Resolution 43 means."

    -Me personally, I see this as a Fire Fighter and a tax payer in MC. I also try my best to educate the public to the real side of this issue.

    "I am against this because its a bad fight. Even if you are right and you win...the local is going to look bad. The IAFF is going to look bad. The career staff is going to look bad."

    -Not to beat the dead horse...but before 11 September we were "JUST" here for a pay check and now after 4+ months we are back to just that again in most eyes and that's a fact alot of us live with on a daily basis. But no matter if we win or lose, I for one can sleep well at night knowing I stood my ground on this issue of not doing my union brothers wrong.

    I can't reiterate enough some of these individuals from local 36 are behind the problems or are not standing up to correct the problems. "LETS JUST TURN A CHEEK"
    Last edited by TILLERMAN-1664; 02-27-2002 at 11:07 PM.
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  11. #236
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    TILLERMAN-1664, You have valid concerns. I am not there with you guys. I don't know what its like on the other side of combination systems because I don't work in an area with vollies and paid together. However, I grew up and got started in Virginia in combination systems as a volunteer. The majority of my family lives in your area now in "Monkey County", Md.

    That's part of the reason I continue to keep up with this thread.

    I can imagine that there are some vollies that scare you on a run. However, I know there are plenty of career guys where I work that scare me to death, too. Volunteers don't have a copyright on stupid people. That has to do with standards which I can prove are just as needed in career staff as in volunteers.

    I can imagine that its hard to be so understaffed. However, we run rigs so short handed some days its amazing. We have open slots for years that go unfilled because of budget issues.

    Equipment? Yea, we have ambulances with 250,000+ miles. Engines and Ladders at the end of their 2nd maybe 3rd lives.

    Misused resources and money? Oh yea. Just like everywhere else in America.

    My point is that your specific problems are unique to your department, but the issues that make up the bigger picture are everywhere. Volunteers or not...they'll still be there. Then the local is going to have to answer what changed? What was gained? Nothing but some personal satisfaction? That won't cut it.

    When the local goes back to the public looking for staffing and they say there aren't enough people...Well, you guys forced a bunch to quit and that was ok.

    When the local goes back to the public and says equipment is out of date...Well, you guys forced the vollies out along with their stuff and this is the only county trucks left.

    When the public comes to the local and says why did the IAFF put the volunteer fire station next door out of business after 50 years...what are they going to say?

    You say that the public doesn't know the career staff exist? Is this how you want them to find out? They are not going to understand what you are talking about. They don't have time to figure it out. They will see the soundbite on the news and that's all they will know.

    The Local 36 issue is a distraction that may make people feel better, but its not going to do anyone any good.

    Results will come with Education, Political Involvement, Standards.

    We need to figure out a better strategy than declaring volunteers as "rival organizations". We are supposed to be professionals. Declaring them as Rivals makes them competition...equals. Highlighting the fact that many volunteers are career firefighters in the nation's capital just drives that point home even more. You can't play the "rival" card and then go back and say they aren't qualified. People won't see the difference between the DC guys and the rest of them.

    We as a entire union need to look long term. PG county, Mont. County, Fairfax County, and the rest will all be 100% professional in the near future. Its a matter of time. It will be quite a change for these areas. We need to be seen as the people that make the change easier for the community. Not as the reason.

    Again, Best of Luck to ALL of you.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

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    Wink How much more can be said?

    SWR – Thanks, I was trying to think last night of a reply for Tillerman, but after so many posts and remarks about this issue I think I’m finally running out of things to say.

    Volunteers don't have a copyright on stupid people.
    How very true! As I wrote in a recent letter to the President of L-1619, of all of the problems he has with the volunteers he has the same problems with his own group. I don’t know why they can’t/won’t admit that. You know, as I sit here typing I just received a fax from a friend who is a Federal Firefighter. The fax is a copy of a letter his local President received from the President of L-1619. It is basically the same letter that is going out to all locals charging their members. But what is actually funny is after the first letter L-1619 sent out to L-36 charging their members it doesn’t seem they learned anything from it.
    For those of you who don’t know let me explain. In the original letter sent from L-1619 to L-36, they left out over half of the names of members that were supposed to be charged. They had names on the list that didn’t even belong to L-36. Now you would think this would teach them to do their homework and research before sending out letters charging people with violations. Well I guess they didn’t learn from the first one. The letter received by the Federal guys has 9 names on it. Out of these 9 names they work for 3 different departments with 3 different locals. So lets repeat, Volunteers don't have a copyright on stupid people.

    “Equipment? Yea, we have ambulances with 250,000+ miles. Engines and Ladders at the end of their 2nd maybe 3rd lives.”
    “When the local goes back to the public and says equipment is out of date...Well, you guys forced the vollies out along with their stuff and this is the only county trucks left.”
    Take a look at the apparatus fleet in PG. With the exception of the 5 new pumpers the county just purchased, the rest of the county fleet is mostly trash trucks. It’s reserve fleet, what reserve fleet. The volunteers came up with a 3rd pumper policy to enhance the county reserve fleet. What the 3rd pumper policy is is that the stations with 3 pumpers can have their 3rd pumper put on county maintenance if they will agree to loan a pumper to a station when needed. Now look at the fleet owned by the volunteers, some of the best apparatus money can buy. All for the use of the career staff while they are working. The county isn’t going to supply them with this kind of apparatus.

    Volunteers or not...they'll still be there.
    So why not try to work with us instead of attacking us?

    You can't play the "rival" card and then go back and say they aren't qualified.
    Is that anything like the “race card”? (Just a little humor)

    We as a entire union need to look long term. PG County, Mont. County, Fairfax County, and the rest will all be 100% professional in the near future. Its a matter of time.
    Sorry, have to disagree on this one. I don’t speak for Mont. Fairfax and the rest but as for PG, it won’t happen in my life time. Just my opinion though!

    Thanks again SWR, you’ve made my day easier.

    Chopper – Thanks for the kind words, I’m humbled. Those same words right back at you. Maybe one day we can get together and have a chilly. You can bring Tillerman, I’d like to buy him one and show him all of us aren’t all that bad!
    Peace!

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    I'll help chip in for the chillies if Tiller arrives steering the back of Quint 40.

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    Originally posted by Grit
    I'll help chip in for the chillies if Tiller arrives steering the back of Quint 40.
    No, we will leave that piece of junk at home.

    JAM1902... I am sorry for giving you the impression that all volunteers are bad. I was speeking of most of the vollies in MC. Yes as I have posted before you are both correct there are bad apples in both baskets.

    As for the chillies...I am guest bartending at Rock Bottom Brewery in Bethesda, Tuesday March 5 at 7:00. We are trying to raise money for burned children. Come on by, "A" round is on me.

    "VERY PROUD" Union member of the I.A.F.F. as well as my local 1664.
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    Tiller:

    Unless you're providing day care, I can't take you up on your offer, but thanks.

    If T19 will be parked on Norfolk Av, maybe I'll bring the kids to play!

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    Thumbs up Sounds like a weaner to me

    Tillerman – Thanks for the invite. That’s a good night, wife’s out and I don’t have anything else to do. It’s on the calendar!
    Peace

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    Thumbs up Interesting Reading!

    I got this from another thread, it appears that the Resolution 43 issue may have hit the floor of the House of Representatives already.

    This is an email I received about the IAFF and the volunteer issue. I thought people would like to read.

    (House of Representatives - February 27, 2002)

    The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mrs. BIGGERT). Under a previous order of the
    House, the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. WELDON) is recognized for 5 minutes.

    Mr. WELDON of Pennsylvania. Madam Speaker, I reluctantly rise to discuss an issue that troubles me greatly. For the past 16 years that I have served in this body I have tried to focus attention on the plight of the Nation's fire and emergency service providers.

    Across this country, we have fought for their interests. We have fought for the career and volunteer firefighters in 32,000 departments. We organized the largest caucus in the Congress. We have an annual dinner each April which brings all the focus together. We have had President Clinton, former President Bush and all of
    our major party leaders come together to support them.

    As we saw in the Washington Post 2 days ago, the good will we have developed is currently being undone by a resolution passed by the International Association of Fire Fighters, good friends of mine, supporters of mine, that tells their membership they can no longer volunteer in the course of serving the communities where they live. So a firefighter in the District of Columbia who lives in suburban
    Maryland or Virginia is no longer allowed on his own free time to serve the communities where he lives. If he wants to do that, he must give up his union card.

    Madam Speaker, this is like saying that teachers, and I was a teacher for 7 years, should withdraw from the teacher's association if they want to tutor poor kids on weekends or after school, or even teach Sunday school. It is like telling doctors that they should no longer serve in clinics on their own time or be dismissed from the AMA. It is like telling professional athletes they should no longer play in
    charity games, raising money for good causes, or coach our youth teams. It is like telling lawyers that they should not belong to the American Bar Association if they do pro bono work.

    Madam Speaker, one of the leaders, a paid IAFF leader and a member of the Rockville City Volunteer Fire Department, has estimated that 70 percent of all career firefighters volunteer in the communities where they live. The IAFF has now come out and said they can no longer do that.I respectfully request our friends in the IAFF to reconsider this decision.

    We will continue to support firefighters, career and volunteer.We will continue to fight for more funding to provide even for paid personnel where there are shortages. But this kind of a policy drives a wedge between career and volunteer fire and EMS people that is just, I think, unthinkable.

    In fact, one of the leaders of the IAFF said it well: ``Many of the smaller communities rely solely on volunteer stations and they stand to lose a lot. This is all about men and women who really just love being a firefighter. Volunteering on their days off, whether in their own county or nearby, keeps their skills fresh. This just unnecessarily drives a wedge between the careers and the volunteers, and that eventually hurts the public.''

    Madam Speaker, I was up at the World Trade Center 2 days after the disaster, and I saw thousands of firefighters from around the country working together with the New York City career firefighters. Does this mean that those career firefighters from other departments that went to New York City would lose their union cards if this were enforced because they were volunteering to help their brother firefighters in time of need?

    I plead with my friends in the IAFF, for the sake of your own members, change this policy, so that we all can work together for the good of America's domestic defenders.

    END

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    Thumbs up

    Concerning the above post, you can remove the may have from the post. I called the Congressman's office today and they confirmed that the speech was made. I think I'll move to PA just to vote for him!
    Peace

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    Here it goes!

    Just like a bunch of people here have been saying...

    This is the one place in the nation where this fight could turn into something big....Congress' Backyard.

    Does the PG local think that the lawmakers don't read the paper or watch the news?

    The congress is full of lawmakers eager to strike a blow to unions. They have killed collective bargaining. They want to stop unions from spending member money on canidates they don't support (I would actually like that). Now they have their new target.

    Is there a better fight? "Big Bad Union stopping volunteers"

    They could block legislation or create legislation all in the name of defending volunteerism.

    This is specifically what I was talking about when I stated that the union needs to start thinking long term about issues such as this one.

    I read that Department of Labor opinion that states it doesn't think volunteering in the same county where you work requires overtime if its not forced.

    That's just one thing that could change dramatically if lawmakers feel they have the "good fight" on their side.

    Again, with the President asking everyone to volunteer...there couldn't be a worse time for this issue.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

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    I looked up Rep. Weldon from Pa.

    Rep.Curt Weldon is the congressman for the 7th District of Pa. He is the FOUNDER of the Congressional Fire Service Institute.

    As a press statement says, "Weldon, a former fire chief and founder of the Congressional Fire Services Institute and the Congressional Fire Services Caucus, has been the most outspoken and knowledgeable member of Congress on fire issues"

    Congressman Weldon also was involved in inserting language that boosted Fire Grant money to 1 billion dollars in the 2002 budget.


    I guess he may know a thing or two about the business. Not a light weight.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

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    I have read the post's on this thread with some interest. I am not for or against either side because I am 600 miles away and I don't know the politics involved. However in these times of volatile politics, slumping economy, I hope that with the recent congressional concerns we don't step on our d**** and the International's reputation tarnished as anti-volunteer. The way the press is, they will not portray the real issues at hand, rather portray it as beating up on the goodwilled citizens who generously give their spare time. In turn the citizenry might turn against the professionals who protect their lives and property when no one else is around to do it.
    I don't want to see union brothers raked over the coals needlessly so I hope there can be a compromise to make this situation quiet down out of the public eye. With the anti-labor sentiment strong we must do what we can to uphold our image as dedicated professionals who do this for a living and not as a hobby or part-time job.
    Proud Member IAFF Local 2334 No.Providence Fire Dept.

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    Thumbs down To late to back out gracefully!

    PuffyNPFD - I got this from another thread in another forum. A member of an IAFF local wrote it,
    Congressman Weldon is Chairman of the Congressional Fire Service Caucus, the largest and most powerful bipartisan caucus in the Senate and the House.
    At this time when the attention of the nation and our elected officials is turned toward our nations firefighters, the reckless and selfish actions of PG Firefighters Local 1619 is poised to undo all the progress and advancement that we as a profession and avocation have made in the past 20 years. Thanks Tom, your parents must be so proud. (Tom being Tom McEachin, President L-1619.)


    I hope that with the recent congressional concerns we don't step on our d**** and the International's reputation tarnished as anti-volunteer.

    I don't want to see union brothers raked over the coals needlessly so I hope there can be a compromise to make this situation quiet down out of the public eye.

    I think it's too late for both statements. As I wrote before, "I believe that L-1619 has started rolling a snowball that they don’t know how to stop and they will drag down and blacken the eye of any other local that wants to jump on board with them." And I would also add the IAFF itself since it found it necessary to let 1619 pursue this attack.
    I believe L-1619 could have stopped this before it snowballed into what it is going to be. But the arrogant, egotistical, and self-righteous attitudes of these people blinded them from seeing past the noses on their faces.

    I am not for or against either side because I am 600 miles away and I don't know the politics involved.

    Let me give you a real brief run down on what's going on in PG. Now granted, you have to take this for what it's worth coming from a volunteer. My opinions may be biased but if I think you are right, I will tell you your right. Also, if I think your wrong same thing. I happen to agree with a lot of the issues L-1619 has, but instead of coming to the volunteers and trying to work them out, their tactic is always to attack the volunteers.
    L-1619 does not like volunteers. Some of the career people from other locals that L-1619 is bringing up on charges are in positions of authority and L-1619 doesn't like being given orders from a volunteer. They feel they are above taking orders from a volunteer, no matter what their qualifications are.
    This didn't have to go the way it did. But L-1619 is not interested in working out differences, their only answer is to just get rid of the volunteers.

    With the anti-labor sentiment strong we must do what we can to uphold our image as dedicated professionals who do this for a living and not as a hobby or part-time job.

    Maybe I am reading this statement wrong, but are you saying that people who do this as volunteers, or as you say, as a hobby or part-time are not professional?
    I was a career firefighter for 8 years but chose a different path, so since I continued to volunteer what does that make me? For the 8 years I did it as a career person I was a professional, and when I left I reverted to a lesser form of just someone who does it for a hobby?
    Do the career people revert to a lesser form when they are volunteering on their own time, and revert back to being a professional when they go back to work?

    As always, these are only my humbled opinions.
    Peace
    Last edited by Jam1902; 03-01-2002 at 01:02 AM.

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    JAM 1902, just to let you know that I am not anti volunteer, I am one myself in another town other than mine that is ALL VOLUNTEER. When I made the reference to hobby or pt job I wasn't necessarily talking about vollys. I have guys I work with who view the job as just this. The benefits, schedule etc. The situation down there is a real tough one because on one hand the IAFF locals have every right to expunge the outside paid guys from their system, however when you do this you might lose a lot of experienced personnel. Catch 22! When I am in the volly house I am just a FF I take orders do what I am told to do within reason. Because I get a paycheck doesn't make me better than any of the other guys there. I am a volly in a town with no paid, union FF's. We do run mutual aid to cities and towns with paid, union FF's but when the call comes in for MA to one of them I do not go. It is admirable that union FF's want to give their time to volly, however when it stirs S*** it is time to re-evaluate the system. I know that the volly tradition runs deep in this part of the country but when there is union fighting union it isn't healthy. I hope this gets resolved in the quietest most civil manor possible for the good of both sides.

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    THE ONLY FIREFIGHTERS THAT ARE STEPPING ON THEIR D***S ARE THE ONES THAT CONTINUE TO VOLUNTEER ON UNION DEPARTMENTS WHEN THEY BELONG TO THE IAFF. In life we have choices to make. This is one of them.

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    Default Still making waves

    Again, this is only going to give the IAFF locals “Bad Press”. Not worth the fight, even though I feel it would make our jobs easier..

    I think we should take Tillerman1664 up on his offer for drinks @ Rock Bottom. You guys would be amazed if you knew how much money this guy raises for the burned children in this area. You would find it kind of ironic if you knew his real name.

    Tillerman1664, any chance you will be auctioning off your prized “Emergency “ autograph??

    If you would like to talk to Mr. Weldon, he will be at the Annual CFSI dinner on April 18th in D.C., see you there.

    Stay Safe!!!
    FTM/PTB

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