1. #251
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    Thumbs down The facts and nothing but the facts!

    Puffy - No offense taken!

    Mikey - FYI, PG is not a career department, it is a volunteer department supplemented by career staff. With the exception of 2 stations, the rest of the stations are separate, volunteer owned and operated corporations. The volunteers own 80 to 90% of the apparatus, not the career people. Just thought I'd clear that up!
    Silly me, and here I thought L-1619 had cornered the market on arrogance, ego and self-righteousness! Thanks for setting me strait!
    Peace

  2. #252
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    Jam..Does PG County have Union firefighters? Do you have Union Firefighters from other jurisdictions voulunteering there? You can call me self righteous all you want, that isnt going to change the fact that these two-hatters are in violation of IAFF policy. "Silly you"

  3. #253
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    Thumbs down

    I have posted on this topic in other threads but here goes again. As I read the first page posts in this thread, it seems others have my same feeling.... BU**-SH**... The IAFF needs to mind their own business and discontinue interfering with volunteer departments.

    I am a former union member (see other post) and that left a bad taste in my mouth for unions. However, I am not anti-union at all. I feel it is a great thing and some of the things they do is great....but...NOT this time. My girlfriend is the sec/treas of her union here in fla and I go with them to support union functions and activities. But I find the Union here is much much different that in other areas. The members of her local know I am retired and they also know I am now volunteering here....but they dont hassle me. They seem to focus here on employee benefits and wages and working conditions as opposed to spending their time trying to see how they can screw with volunteers.

    This is a decision that was made based on whining from union members that have a problem with volunteering or who forgot where they started. It is another attempt to choke out the volunteer departments that have proudly served their communities for years. This is not an issue about union members volunteering.....it is an issue where the IAFF is attempting to force out all volunteers. It is obvious, especially in PG County since the career staff and the volunteers dont get along even if the volunteers are NOT union members.

    I am with the post who says, "I do one for pay and the other for satisfaction." I have been volunteering since I was 13 and had it not been for that, I would not have had a career job.

    The IAFF is wrong on this one and they have damaged the public view of the Service.
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  4. #254
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    ATTENTION all worrywarts. I have news for you . Outside of these forums and maybe Maryland, the general public dosent give a rats *** about this issue. It hasnt made the news here. In the big scheme of things IT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE PUBLICS OPINION OF THE FIRE SERVICE ONE IOTA. So huff and puff and worry all you want over the "black eye" that the IAFF is supposedly casting over the fire service...It just isnt true. The public wants the red thing showing up at their door when they need it. They really dont care how it gets there.
    Last edited by MIKEYLIKESIT; 03-01-2002 at 06:01 PM.

  5. #255
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    Originally posted by captstanm1
    The IAFF needs to mind their own business and discontinue interfering with volunteer departments.
    Protecting the membership is their job. Apparently the PG Local 1619 has issue with members from other IAFF Locals. It's union business to take care of those issues. Hmmm, did you ever think the volunteer departments may be screwing with the career guys? Or didn't you think?

    Do I care what they do on their own time? HECK NO! However, I do care if it ADVERSELY AFFECTS the livelihood of fellow IAFF members. Go back and read the posts written by myself and my coworkers. We give NUMEROUS examples of how some IAFF members are doing just that on their "own time". That is an issue the IAFF is, and must, address. That is the job of the IAFF... TO PROTECT MEMBERS CAREERS!

    Originally posted by captstanm1
    But I find the Union here is much different that in other areas. The members of her local know I am retired and they also know I am now volunteering here....but they dont hassle me. They seem to focus here on employee benefits and wages and working conditions as opposed to spending their time trying to see how they can screw with volunteers.
    What do you base this "difference" on. Do you have any idea what other issues Local 1619 has on their plate? Ever stop to think that MAYBE they are doing all those things and trying to correct another issue? Maybe Resolution 43 was needed to help them get the issue corrected? Or didn't you think?

    Originally posted by captstanm1
    This is a decision that was made based on whining from union members that have a problem with volunteering or who forgot where they started. It is another attempt to choke out the volunteer departments that have proudly served their communities for years. This is not an issue about union members volunteering.....it is an issue where the IAFF is attempting to force out all volunteers. It is obvious, especially in PG County since the career staff and the volunteers dont get along even if the volunteers are NOT union members.
    "Choke out the Volunteer system"? "This is not about union members volunteering"??? I am amazed that you can see so well what goes on "up north" from way "down south". Maybe if you were up here in our systems you would have a different outlook. You stated some guys seem to "Forget where they came from". Ever stop to think that maybe they didn't forget where they started but realize where they are now? Maybe the members from other Local's are a problem for them? Maybe Local 1619 is trying to correct some problems the guys from other Locals are causing? Ever think about that? Or didn't you think?

    Originally posted by captstanm1
    The IAFF is wrong on this one and they have damaged the public view of the Service.
    The public doesn't care as long as the fire truck shows up. There are so many safeguards in place it is rare they ever get the idea there is a problem. Ever wonder what would happen if the public really knew the TRUTH? Failures to respond, units understaffed, a single pull system because they don't have the staffing to put the units on the street. Who would go for that?

    Have you ever stopped to think the maybe, just MAYBE there is a problem up here with paid guys "two hatting"? Maybe it is interfering with peoples livelihoods? Or didn't you think that far into it?

    Maybe you should talk with the President of the Local your wife is a member. Have him actually look into the issue and contact the Presidents of Local 1619, 1664, 36 and the President's of Howard County and Fairfax County's Locals (sorry, I don't know their numbers) Then talk with him after he does some background work and see what he thinks.

    Stay safe until we chat again!
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 03-01-2002 at 07:55 PM.
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  6. #256
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    Thumbs down Congressional Speech...

    These are politicians we are talking about. I bet, if any of you look deep inside yourselves, you will agree you don't trust any of them any farther than you can throw the Washington Monument!

    Can you say...

    Political Grandstanding!!!


    (I love these smiley's)
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  7. #257
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    Oh my God!!!!

    I can not believe that people here are still saying that this isn't going to become a public mess!!!!

    Ok...Did you guys miss the fact that a congressman from Pa. made a speech about it on the house floor????? Did you not read the Washington Post article???? Do you not realize that the Washington Post is not only read but referred to across the entire country????? Do you not realize how important Congressman Weldon is to Fire Service Legislation and Policy????

    Hey, Mike...Jane Doe in the Windy City doesn't know about the fight But YOUR CONGRESSMAN DOES and that's the problem.

    National policy is set by the people who live part time in the nation's capitol...the congressmen/women. They obviously know what's going on because that's why Rep.Weldon made a speech on the floor. They'll remember it when the IAFF comes a knocking. When they come looking for support. When they come looking for money.

    I promise you there will be legislation resulting from this. It may deal with it directly or indirectly but there will be a Bill proposed.

    Its been said here so many times, but here it goes again....

    Organized Labor is not as popular as it used to be. The public doesn't automatically support unions. The members don't automatically support their unions. The AFL-CIO is millions short of political money for the coming elections.

    So, as a politician you have a union fighting something that to everyone else is something good and American. A union that isn't coming to you with the same amount of money as before. A union whose own members are fighting among themselves PUBLICALLY.

    Its a little easier to tell them to walk this year because you can get stronger support elsewhere....remember-FIREFIGHTERS are America's heroes now...Not the IAFF. He can wrap himself around tons of VOLUNTEER firefighters just as easily as he can union ones.

    Can you imagine on the campaign trail talking about how you were endorsed by the IAFF, and some reporter smirks and asks "is that the same union that is against volunteering ?" "I thought that's what we were asked to do?"

    This is stupid. Its a blackeye on the union with nothing to show for it but more fighting. There are so many important issues that would get universal support and good PR for the entire organization. This is a distraction. Congressman Weldon wasn't taking his time to talk about standards, funding, staffing. He was talking about this mess.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  8. #258
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    Congressmen Weldon is a good man. I happen to disagree with him on this one. Do you truly believe that with all the news of the day there is going to be a nationwide uproar over resoulution 43? Gimme a break SWR. All politics are local and I happen to know for a fact that the republican that is my congressman and the democrat that represents the town where I work BOTH enjoy the support they receive from our State Association which is affiliated with the IAFF. Curt Weldon is a former volunteer fire chief. He represents an area with many volunteer fire departments. He is doing what he thinks is best. We live in a great country where we can have disagreements. Local 1619 is doing what it thinks is best. Jane Doe from the Windy City may very well not know or care about any of this. She is the one paying my salary. NOT a congressman from Pennsylvania.

  9. #259
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    Thumbs up Living in a FREE Country is great!

    Mikey - Yes PG has union firefighters, they have been here for over 30 years. Some of the two hatters as you call them have been here for 10…..15…..20, or more years. It was OK for 25 years but now all of a sudden its not. I don't care how long it's been on the books, it all started a few years ago when L-1619 lost on trying to retaliate against a volunteer who works for DC and is a volunteer chief in PG for doing his job, period. Why should these people have to give up what they have been earning and working towards, for the years they put in as volunteers? And yes we are talking monetary loss. If you would like to see what this loss would be you can check out a summary of the PG volunteers LOSAP program on the mrvfd.org web page.

    Maybe Local 1619 is trying to correct some problems the guys from other Locals are causing?
    Fact, the only problem is that the members from L-1619 do not believe they should have to take orders from a volunteer. Yes they have other issues but as I said many, many times, I agree with a lot of them and they are nothing that can't be worked out by working together. But the numero uno, number one, top of the list problem that is driving L-1619 in their quest is "they don't feel they should have to take orders from a volunteer." They could give a sh** if the person wrote the book on firefighting and could, as the old saying goes, put out the fires of purgatory with a water pistol. They just don't think they should have to.

    Maybe it is interfering with peoples livelihoods?
    And
    Do I care what they do on their own time? HECK NO! However, I do care if it ADVERSELY AFFECTS the livelihood of fellow IAFF members.
    No one has still been able to tell me how this affects their livelihoods! The only argument I can possibly think of, and the only one I've heard mentioned is that a volunteer may take away your overtime. Yes, having a volunteer may keep an IAFF member from working overtime but when you took your IAFF job, did you do it because it had a guarantee of overtime? Unless you were guaranteed overtime and a volunteer prevents you from getting it you have no bitch!
    And please, lest' s stop being hypocritical about this livelihood thing. Because we go back to the same old thing that has been beat to death, there is no difference when an IAFF member gets off work from the job and goes out to do their plumbing, carpentering, chimney sweeping, electricaling etc etc etc.
    The only livelihood affected may be the smuck on the street that may not be able to be hired. Or would you rather have someone backing you up on the line that had to have the entrance exam lowered and the rest of the requirements lowered in order to get the job? And only takes it because it's going to give them a paycheck but really doesn't give a sh** about the job. Because that's what's being hired around here now, and that's if they can get anyone to take the test. But that’s another story for another thread, I think you get my drift!

    Maybe you should talk with the President of the Local your wife is a member. Have him actually look into the issue and contact the Presidents of Local 1619, 1664, 36 and the President's of Howard County and Fairfax County's Locals (sorry, I don't know their numbers) Then talk with him after he does some background work and see what he thinks.
    Don't stop there. Shouldn't you talk to both sides to get the whole story and not just one side? There are always two sides to every story!

    These are politicians we are talking about. I bet, if any of you look deep inside yourselves, you will agree you don't trust any of them any farther than you can throw the Washington Monument!
    Hey I agree with you 110%. So these are the people you are going to count on to replace the volunteers you are trying to force to quit? HELLO!
    I don't know how local governments work outside of PG, but I think I know the one in PG well enough to know that the answer to that question is WRONG!
    Chopper hit the nail on the head, " There are so many safeguards in place it is rare they ever get the idea there is a problem." That goes for the politicians to. Even when you prove to them something is wrong they will deny you, especially if it's going to cost them some of the almighty $$$$$$!

    Congressmen Weldon is a good man. I happen to disagree with him on this one.
    BINGO!!! Everyone that has a side on this or any other issue is basically a good person, or at least I hope they are. But we can all agree to disagree. I can tell my side and try to persuade you to come with over with me, and you can do the same to me. In the end there will be a winner and a loser to this issue if you want to caricaturize it that way. But rest assured, we will pick up and move on to the next issue and start all over again.
    I will leave you with an excerpt from the good Congressman's speech because I believe I can't say it any better. Because I think the ultimate losers are going to be the people we are supposed to be here for. The ones who could give a damn whether the person pulling them out of their blazing house is a career person or a volunteer, just as long as their getting pulled out.

    "Madam Speaker, this is like saying that teachers, and I was a teacher for 7 years, should withdraw from the teacher's association if they want to tutor poor kids on weekends or after school, or even teach Sunday school. It is like telling doctors that they should no longer serve in clinics on their own time or be dismissed from the AMA. It is like telling professional athletes they should no longer play in charity games, raising money for good causes, or coach our youth teams. It is like telling lawyers that they should not belong to the American Bar Association if they do pro bono work.
    Peace, keep the faith and stay safe!
    Last edited by Jam1902; 03-02-2002 at 11:27 AM.

  10. #260
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    Default Jams....

    You state so many "facts" yet they are all from your viewpoint (we have discussed that all before so no need to go farther). The problem is greater than what you see from behind the desk of "President Jams, Mt. Rainier VFD"

    You stated "No one has still been able to tell me how this affects their livelihoods!"

    Again I request you go back and read past page 9 of this thread. Look at my posts specifically. I point out a factual example of where two shifts of personnel were removed from a station that is responsible for "picking up my line". Some of volunteers that took the place of the career guys are DC Local 36 members.

    Did it affect my livelihood? Not directly, but only because I am not assigned to that station. It could have been me, I got lucky. Did it affect my livelihood indirectly, damn right it did! Stat's prove they can't be depended on to get out. I guess it's OK they pulled the career guys out so some could have a "hobby". It's only my life and the life of my coworkers at stake. Small price to pay for someone to have a hobby!

    Jams, please answer me this. Is PG County's fire protection going to fold if IAFF members choose the Local over Volunteering?
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    Thumbs down Cover Blown

    Chopper - " You state so many "facts" yet they are all from your viewpoint "
    I base my facts on what comes from their (1619 members) own mouths.

    Again I request you go back and read past page 9 of this thread.
    Read it, understood it. Granted, if this station can't get out yes, it affects your safety. But how does it affect your livelihood? Were the personnel pulled from the station laid off or weren't they just reassigned? I see no lose in pay here, just a different place to work. But look at it this way, if they have so many DC guy's at that station maybe reassigning the MC career staff was a good move. I would imagine tensions would be pretty high between the volunteers and the career staff here due to the current issue.
    Peace
    PS, by the way, it was "President John A. Mutchler" but gave the President thing up 2 years ago, they wouldn't give me a big enough desk!
    Peace again

  12. #262
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    Default

    Hi John. I'm Mark, nice to "meet" you!

    Anyway, you may disagree, but I consider my safety and security as directly affecting my livelihood. As you are aware, when we are put out on a call we expect to have the back up units arrive in a timely fashion and do what they are supposed to be doing. If they don't get out or get out understaffed they are virtually useless to me.

    Maybe if you ask the guy's that were there on shift work and moved to another location how it affected their livelihood. Maybe the Station Commander depended on the differential he received for doing the job. What about the guys on shift work that are now on day work? Maybe they depended on shift work for child care needs. Maybe they are forking out $200/week for day care now that was not planned. Maybe they were breaking even financially prior to that event. Does it affect their livelihood? I think so.

    Maybe I am off base. I know I am biased. But then... Who isn't??? To me, it all matters.

    It still comes down to the same issue. If they want to remain in the IAFF they will need to quit volunteering in "shops" where there are IAFF members. Complain all you want, it is still the bottom line!

    Take Care!
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 03-02-2002 at 06:35 PM.
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    It is a simple choice. If you belong to a union, you abide by it's rules and regulations regardless of whether you agree with them or not. If you choose to volunteer and are a member of a Local, give up your union card. I read a recent article in the Washington Post where a council person entertained the idea of having a volunteer fire force in Washington DC. However, the President of that Local spoke out that it was a bad idea, but I guess it is ok for his members to spend their days off in surrounding jurisdictions doing it for free. Also, think for a moment- should you sustain an off duty injury, I guess you don't mind burning up all your leave where you work while you recuperate, unless you manage to crawl into work and just happen to fall in the apparatus room and then you could have that jurisdiction pickup the tab for your off duty hobbies. So, that is the bottom line, no great debate over the merits of being a volunteer. And for those of you that gripe about people having side jobs in Union trades such as plumbing and electrical work, before you get on the soapbox about them being scab labor, better make sure that they don't hold a Union card in that trade.

  14. #264
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    Default Boxing Themselves In

    Greetings...I am on the job in DC, vollied in PG from the mid-80's and strongly considering volling in Montgomery County, MD in the near future. IMO, it is a sad state of affairs when the IAFF so called "leaders" of the PG and Montgomery fire service are are pulling out the stops and will undoubtably put the rest of the rank and fill into a box. This will affect the quality of life in terms of pay, schedule, and other benefits for the remainder of the decade.

    In my opinion, the Montgomery Local instead of piggy backing onto 1619 could direct their energy towards a 24/72 work schedule and more pay instead of continually persuing a battle that has been decided overwelmingly by the voters (Question E). PG is getting poorer every year. If the moron leading the union It's really impossible to know what they are hoping to achieve. It's not about saving jobs (I'll address the Fireman Chopper from Mont Co's "jobs' comment in a minute); adding jobs is not going to happen even if a hundred vollies quit tomorrow. The only way this can be perceived is a push to drive out certain volly chief officers in the chain of command. This is pure folly, after all this crap has been going on for three decades.

    Image, whole careers with strained career/volly relations. To make a move against members of L-36, hundreds of which are currently on the job and have had the most fufilling experiences of their firefighting lives and expecting them make a choice between appeasing the IAFF bylaws and the places that taught them to be to have some semblance of satisfaction in the fire service? Anyone with half a brain knows this will drive commitment further toward dedication toward the volunteer organizations. If it ever came down to this, L-36 would have hundreds of union cards tossed.

    You made a choice when you signed onto a combination system. You knew the pitfall and the benefits. This doesn't mean that as a "true believer" in the IAFF by-laws you can't attempt to make changes within your jurisdiction to persue your ideology. It does mean that if you assume a position of union leadership within PG County or Montgomery you have a responsibility for what should be more important...safety, pay and benefits. Unfortunately and sadly, everybody is harassing everybody else on this basically stupid issue.
    After all the brothers who died and the political and social change in our country, this is counter productive.

    I feel more affiliation with the Fraternal Order of Leatherheads (to which a great deal of FDIC instructors belong) than I do to the PLATFORM of the IAFF because of the way this issue has evolved the Washington Metro Area. Don't get me wrong... without the past leadership of my career department's union, I can't imagine to think how much worse my job would be. Unfortunately, the leadership of the surrounding jurisdictions is not doing the same for theirs.

    This is for Chopper, Mr."14 people that no longer have a job." Give me a break. I guess this in reference to position susposedly lost because of the few DC Fireman who volly in Montgomery. BTW: I "buffed" (I guess you can still buff fires even if you're not susposed to volly) a job in Cabin John Friday night. I can't see that having more DFRS personnel on the scene would have helped, since the majority of which were earning their 40K salary on the exterior, and vollies from Rockville were doing it inside, two of which are on the job in Washington. Despite opionions to the contrary (the paid fireman from Mulenburgh, PA who says vollies do it only for thrills and could care a less for the community)I am a homeowner and taxpayer in this county and I want the best person for the job on the knob ANYWHERE IN MY COMMUNITY if m I did notice that the DFRS personnel that were "doing their job" had been or are currently vollies.

  15. #265
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    Chopper, I agree with you that safety would be a concern if trucks weren't getting out. What policies are in place to get units enroute? Don't the responding crews have the ability to ask for another station? is there a mandatory enroute time before the call is transferred? Is there a standard for how many people can be on a rig before it leaves the station?

    These seem like they would address a large part of the problem. Further more what is understaffed in your opinion? And do you apply that same number to career staff? If a career truck is down a man due to injury or illness do you consider that understaffed? Do you ever have career staff bringing trucks totally alone or with two guys only?

    As for the guy coming in behind you-wouldn't you rather the guy be a professional firefighter in a high volume system than a new guy with no clue?

    Also, the system in PG has been around awhile. Many stations are volunteer by name with career supplement as needed. They were there from the beginning and the system was, too. When you came on didn't you understand how it was set up? Station transfers, volunteer officers and equipment have had to have been part of PG county for a long time-correct?

    Its not like they came into a 100% career system and kicked some guys out of their station bid and told you they were adding vollies at every hall.

    I think that has a lot to do with this whole fight. Who "owns" the system? Is it a volunteer system or a career system? You have volunteer organizations with a very long history that claim they deserve control of their destiny. You have career staff that every year become more and more vital to the system's operation and who want more control and influence. Who is right?

    Every post about the Local 36 guys turns into how the system is set up wrong. I have to go back that it seems these guys are only a target to get back at the volunteers for something.

    You talk about safety and staffing and then talk about how these professional firefighters run calls with you. They're trained and they are obviously there. You say you don't have a problem with volunteers only these guys, but all of your problems seem to deal with the system as a whole.

    Again with the job impact...you have a job. The other guys have a job. Are there not more career staff in PG county than when you came on? Is there not going to be more career staff in PG county in the coming years?

    Resolution 43 is a bad rule. I understand the concept of scab work and taking part time work, but when did we as a profession decide that Volunteers were bad people? Like we have some sort of RIGHT to a job. Like any system that has a paid guy should suddenly give itself up to being 100% career or be considered scab labor. You name one other profession that actively seeks to ban its members from giving their free time to help out. Another profession who considers what most call charity as scab work. A volunteer is not taking a job away from anyone because there wasn't one there to begin with. If you say he prevents the creation of one then you would have to ban volunteers throughout the entire country. Afterall, if BFE Utah didn't have any volunteers they would have to have career staff who could be IAFF members....better kick out any members running the 3 calls a year there because they are taking a job away from someone.

    We are not in competition with volunteers. You treat them like a private company coming into town to undercut you. Career staffing was created to replace volunteers who could no longer keep up. There is nothing shameful in that. They do a community service and when they can no longer do it then they are replaced. Now we want to speed up the process because we are tired of waiting for them to die out. Its crazy.

    Say what you want about rules but its not right. Kicking someone out for doing something he's been doing for decades because some of us want more jobs that weren't there to begin with is wrong.


    One more thing...As for firefighters working side jobs and having a union card from that trade......your kidding right? I'm sure some do but I have been involved in fire/ems in four states and I think its safe to say its not the majority of them. Again-how that's allowed and volunteers aren't makes absolutely no sense.


    Good luck to ALL of you
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  16. #266
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    Default Re: Boxing Themselves In

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    Greetings...I am on the job in DC, vollied in PG from the mid-80's and strongly considering volling in Montgomery County, MD in the near future. IMO, it is a sad state of affairs when the IAFF so called "leaders" of the PG and Montgomery fire service are are pulling out the stops and will undoubtably put the rest of the rank and fill into a box. This will affect the quality of life in terms of pay, schedule, and other benefits for the remainder of the decade.
    Addressing this issue is long over due. I stand behind my union brothers in their attempt to enforce a by-law which was passed with an unanimous vote at the Chicago Conference in August 2000. How do you think it will affect your Local 36 "Brothers" will affect our pay, schedule or other benefits? I believe this has been addressed in a previous post. Feel free to go back and read it.

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    In my opinion, the Montgomery Local instead of piggy backing onto 1619 could direct their energy towards a 24/72 work schedule and more pay instead of continually persuing a battle that has been decided overwelmingly by the voters (Question E).
    What makes you think Montgomery County is going to "piggy back" onto Res 43? I don't know who you are getting your info from, but you need to utilize better sources. As for our work schedule, there is no way we will talk our employer into hiring another shift any time soon. Just isn't going to happen. As for more pay, our recently ratified contract, when/if approved by the County Council, will give us a substantial increase over the next three years. Again, you need to do your homework before you spout off. As for "Question E" it was determined the voters did not wish a change to the charter. In reality a change of the charter did in fact occur and we do now have one person in charge of the entire system. Did we win the vote? No. Did we win the battle? Sure did! Furthermore, Question E has nothing to do with this issue.

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    To make a move against members of L-36, hundreds of which are currently on the job and have had the most fufilling experiences of their firefighting lives and expecting them make a choice between appeasing the IAFF bylaws and the places that taught them to be to have some semblance of satisfaction in the fire service? Anyone with half a brain knows this will drive commitment further toward dedication toward the volunteer organizations. If it ever came down to this, L-36 would have hundreds of union cards tossed.
    If your ability to volunteer is so important, toss your card. I don't want you in my union. I would like you to answer this for everyone. Why is it when asked by a city council member your Local President expressed great distrust for the volunteer system and strongly opposed the idea of one being created in Washington, DC? Is it "do as I say, not as I do"?

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    You made a choice when you signed onto a combination system. You knew the pitfall and the benefits. This doesn't mean that as a "true believer" in the IAFF by-laws you can't attempt to make changes within your jurisdiction to persue your ideology. It does mean that if you assume a position of union leadership within PG County or Montgomery you have a responsibility for what should be more important...safety, pay and benefits.
    You made a choice when you joined the IAFF (assuming you are a member). Part of that choice was to follow their rules. They are there for a reason, to protect their employees. Toss your card if you wish. I can tell you this, if you are a member of Local 36 and come volunteer in Montgomery County, we will come after that card you so eagerly wish to toss.


    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    I feel more affiliation with the Fraternal Order of Leatherheads (to which a great deal of FDIC instructors belong) than I do to the PLATFORM of the IAFF because of the way this issue has evolved the Washington Metro Area. Don't get me wrong... without the past leadership of my career department's union, I can't imagine to think how much worse my job would be. Unfortunately, the leadership of the surrounding jurisdictions is not doing the same for theirs.
    The surrounding jurisdictions are doing their jobs. Protecting their membership and following the IAFF by-laws. You know, by-laws, rules. That's right, your Local President doesn't seem to think they matter. (Statement supported with an article from Firehouse.com link in a past post).

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    This is for Chopper, Mr."14 people that no longer have a job." Give me a break. I guess this in reference to position susposedly lost because of the few DC Fireman who volly in Montgomery.
    Already addressed this, go back and read it.

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    BTW: I "buffed" (I guess you can still buff fires even if you're not susposed to volly) a job in Cabin John Friday night. I can't see that having more DFRS personnel on the scene would have helped, since the majority of which were earning their 40K salary on the exterior, and vollies from Rockville were doing it inside, two of which are on the job in Washington. Despite opionions to the contrary (the paid fireman from Mulenburgh, PA who says vollies do it only for thrills and could care a less for the community)I am a homeowner and taxpayer in this county and I want the best person for the job on the knob ANYWHERE IN MY COMMUNITY if m I did notice that the DFRS personnel that were "doing their job" had been or are currently vollies.
    I pulled up the call you are talking about. It was a 2 alarm fire with multiple attics and roofs. All the crews were pulled from the structure except for ten people (first 2 engines and trucks I believe). They were pulled because of the "moth to the flame" syndrome. Because of that "syndrome" the stairway interior stairway was blocked from any egress should there have been an emergency. The crews were ordered out and rotated back in as needed. Sounds like a safety issue and good management to me. I guess you didn't think about that before you started throwing stones. Now if we want to discuss "yard birds" I know that DC has their fair share of them also. Nobody likes them, everyone has them. Nothing you can do about it. As for the origins of the DFRS personnel I will ask you this. Don't most of the people employed in the fire service have previous experience? What's your point? Oh, that's right, you probably don't have one.

    Now, you have given all this info and still have not addressed the issue. The issue is this:
    The IAFF has a by-law. The by-law is to be followed or consequences will occur. Your co-workers have broken those rules, now they are on charges. The choice is theirs. Let them make it.
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 03-03-2002 at 08:49 PM.
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    Originally posted by swr88
    Chopper, I agree with you that safety would be a concern if trucks weren't getting out. What policies are in place to get units enroute? Don't the responding crews have the ability to ask for another station? is there a mandatory enroute time before the call is transferred? Is there a standard for how many people can be on a rig before it leaves the station?
    There is a three minute time any unit is given to check on the air as responding. After that 3 minute time the next closest unit is dispatched. Units are required to have proper staffing. For fire apparatus it is 3 personnel which include a qualified driver, qualified unit officer and qualified fire fighter. (Qualifications are determined by the County Fire & Rescue Commission). The unit officer is required to call for manpower should they go out understaffed. Understaffed could be missing any of the 3 people (of course they have to have a driver).

    Originally posted by swr88
    Further more what is understaffed in your opinion? And do you apply that same number to career staff? If a career truck is down a man due to injury or illness do you consider that understaffed? Do you ever have career staff bringing trucks totally alone or with two guys only?
    I have to go by the standards. My opinion is we should have no less than 4, preferably 5, 6 or 7, on the fire apparatus, 3 on the medic and 2 on the ambulance. Yes, it is understaffed until someone is hired back in that persons place. We do go with 2, sometimes driver only, and always understaffed.

    Originally posted by swr88
    As for the guy coming in behind you-wouldn't you rather the guy be a professional firefighter in a high volume system than a new guy with no clue?
    I would rather a seasoned guy, but that isn't always the case. As long as I know what I have to work with I adjust accordingly.

    Originally posted by swr88
    Also, the system in PG has been around awhile. Many stations are volunteer by name with career supplement as needed. They were there from the beginning and the system was, too. When you came on didn't you understand how it was set up? Station transfers, volunteer officers and equipment have had to have been part of PG county for a long time-correct?
    I'm not in PG. Can't answer that. I can say the system is ever changing and people have to change with it...

    Originally posted by swr88
    You talk about safety and staffing and then talk about how these professional firefighters run calls with you. They're trained and they are obviously there. You say you don't have a problem with volunteers only these guys, but all of your problems seem to deal with the system as a whole.
    It's Union Ethics... Simple as that.

    Originally posted by swr88
    We are not in competition with volunteers. You treat them like a private company coming into town to undercut you. Career staffing was created to replace volunteers who could no longer keep up. There is nothing shameful in that. They do a community service and when they can no longer do it then they are replaced. Now we want to speed up the process because we are tired of waiting for them to die out. Its crazy.
    Interesting. I guess it shows you don't work in a combined system. What do you think of the volunteer corporation writing letters to the County Council stating it is the "Corporations Opinion" the career guys should not get raises? That to me sounds like someone attempting to undercut the career staff. They will be unsuccessful, yet they still try. That is the mentality of volunteer we have to deal with where I work.

    Again, this is about following the IAFF by-law. Simple as that.
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    Thanks to all on this thread who have engaged in an intelligent and respectful discussion. I am now tired of banging my head against the wall and will leave it for someone else to pick up the slack... Not to mention I have been accused by coworkers that I am picking on people that are somewhat "challenged".

    Since it will probably take an act of congress to submit another post on this issue, I leave you all with one final word.

    "Bye!"
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    Default A question

    Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    Fighting31. Its not about toys and it isnt about volunteers per se. This is about UNION firefighters violating UNION rules. Not about who can **** the farthest.
    Ok if resolution 43 is about UNION firefighters violating UNION rules then why are all PG County Volunteer Organizations "rivals"? Can somebody explain that to me? If you union folks have problems with each other than why did you drag us volunteer organizations into the fray?

    Keep safe all fire fighters regardless of status of career or volunteer.

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    Cool

    To Chopper and the rest of the posters I thank you for a good, hard debate.

    I, too, am leaving this thread....I know I said the same thing awhile ago...this time its for real.

    My wife and I are taking the honeymoon we never got to take before, and will be gone for a week. So, I am finally being physically pulled away from this thread.

    I wish all of you guys in the area all the best. I hope things work out and you all stay safe. I'll think about you while I am sipping on my drink on the beach....ahhhh


    Thanks again for the hot topic.

    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

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    Post Can't we all just get along?

    Come on guys...I've been following this issue for quite awhile now and all I really have to say is, "Whatever happened to the Brotherhood?" We are all brothers in this for we are firefighters. Whether you be paid, vol., or union we all proform the same job and hopefully all are on the job for the same reason. We are public servents, it shouldn't matter what walk of life, race, or even union or vol you hail from. We are firefighters. To this affect I make post this simple question to the union, "Why was PGFD placed as a rival organization?" They are firefighters..just as you..there is no difference here, we all wear the same badge with the same ideals or atleast we should. I understand that 43 is part of the by-laws, but my question lies in why the Union decided to place them in "bad-standing" as it were. It makes little sense to place brothers out side the realm of what is right. I say that in terms of the overall picture and I will not sit here and say that the IAFF does nothing for its members, because they do, do great things. However, I do question the mindset of Union leaders that list fellow firefighters..though non-union..as rivals. All I say is let this set behind us..settle this on different terms. The brotherhood doesn't need to fight within its self in such a time of need. We are all firefighters and never forget that. Stay safe brothers, every one.

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    RTFD2909 – If I may, let me try to briefly answer you question "Why was PGFD placed as a rival organization?"
    First, it was not PGFD, it was all of the individual volunteer fire corporations which make up the Prince Georges County Fire Department!
    L-1619 of PG County filed charges on a volunteer Chief Officer who happens to be a career firefighter in DC and belongs to there IAFF local. They did this because the volunteer Chief had a member of L-1619 disciplined for doing something wrong and they got ****ed off about it. Bottom line is, and they will tell you this themselves, they don’t feel they should have to answer to or take orders from any volunteer no matter what their rank is. When the issue went to the trial board it was thrown out because the volunteer Chief Officer’s station he was from was not labeled or considered as a “Rival Organization” hence the birth of Resolution 43. L-1619 drafted the resolution and named every volunteer corporation in PG County as a "Rival Orgainzation" so they could continue to try and force people who volunteer in PG and belong to the IAFF in other jurisdictions to stop volunteering in PG. That is the brief version of Resolution 43. If you would like to learn more on it and see the actual resolution you can go to
    www.mrvfd.org and click on the Resolution 43 information. I hope this answered your question.
    Peace!

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    Lightbulb Thoughts to ponder

    Interesting, thank you for that update. Here is a continuation of my point. Why PG? The same type of departments exsist all over the country where union members vol. their time in near by counties they live in. For example, and most likely the largest, would be Nassua county Long Island where a large number of FDNY firefighters vol. their time while they are off shift. However, there is no issue in that county over the whole union-vol or resolution 43. So, my question still stands in question of union leaders who have chosen to place those PG departments on the rival list where there are other similar situations country wide that are not under the same standards. This can be solved outside of forcing members to choose. It does sound like something occured with in PG that needs to be addressed, no question there. However, is asking Union members who have decided to spend THEIR free time in PG the way to solve that tension? It sounds to me like it is only adding to the stigma within the county system. We are all brothers let us solve our differences on our level and professionally. Not in some little kid game, because that's all this is really turning out to be. Don't scarifice professionalism to a simple departmental issue that should be handled by the county as a whole.

    As always, stay safe brothers and god bless

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    This issue will never be resolved and we all agree on one thing...and that is...we disagree...

    But...a few posts back CMC hits it on the head.... "Feuding"...This is a result of toes that have been stepped on and feelings that have been hurt by volunteers harassing career folks and career folks harassing volunteers. It does not matter who started it... End it!

    Grow up....Can't we all just get along???? There is more to this little fued in PG that we all know about. As I have told others...I have read about fistfights on the fireground between career and volunteers over who is in charge.... Most of which I understand were a result of the career side saying..."I am paid...I am in charge!"

    I agree with the writer who said save the $200... I would likely resign the union to be able to serve my volunteer department. I would most likely resign over this even if there was no IAFF or career staff in my volunteer station. The implication is there...the implication that, "you are not welcome if you volunteer." Yes...I know it only applies to IAFF Departments or Departments with career people....but sooner or later, some one is going to begin harassing the firefighter who volunteers miles away (despite lack of IAFF and Career Staff) in a small department. The harassers reason will be that by volunteering there the "volunteer" is taking someone's career job. I have heard it from IAFF officials (local ones) in those exact words....

    What constitutes a career Department??? What if a IAFF member volunteers in a small town that has only volunteers and they are in a county that has no career firefighters. Suddenly at the request of the Department, the Town hires a paid driver. Still the only one who is paid in an entire county and this is in a small municipality within the county. Does this make it a paid department and does that IAFF member now have to quit the IAFF or stop volunteering?
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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    Post Well put

    I agree 100% capt. I read over all the stories of the fist fights and what not. Those facts cannot be disputed as far as I am concerned for they are in writing that most are started by paid members. Which is highly unfortunet. Like I said in one of my first posts, "What ever happened to the brotherhood?" but now I had a new line to that, "What ever happened to respect of rank?" If you choose to work in a dept such as PG county you should still recognize the ranks of the fire officers on that fire ground no matter what their back ground for they carry the brass for a reason. Next I'd like to point out to the Union, that if union members are starting these fights where is it their place to name the vol as the "rivals" when then union members are part of the problem. As I stated, this is a county level problem and should be handled as such by the administration of PGFD. IAFF should allow any who chose to vol to vol for that is there right to provide service in their free time to their communities. Once again, capt, you are right..no one will ever agree on this issue..but it does need to stop..the stigma and the tension is not worth it..and its only going to lead to more problems and may some day end up getting people killed and what then?

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