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  1. #221
    MembersZone Subscriber swrr88's Avatar
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    Captain Gonzo said...
    Yes, swr88, there are firefighters that work on the side as electricians, plumbers, carpenters, printers and other trades that are unionized. Let's look at the Unionized trades. Most of them work for large construction companies working on huge projects. The average jake who works on the side is self employed and works the small jobs that a unionized tradesman would even bother to look at to give an estimate. [I]


    That's my point.

    Its not right to be going after members for volunteering when you turn a blind eye to guys doing the same thing to other union workers. It doesn't matter if their work is stuff deemed not major projects.

    You have guys working all kinds of jobs on the side. You have guys that are doing things they aren't supposed to do in the spirit of brotherhood. Then you press the issue against these vollies in one area.

    What if someone says fine...I'll sue for selective enforcement? What if because of this mess the rule has to be altered or abandoned because of some sort of settlement? What if the rules regarding ALL off duty work have to be changed to make things fair?

    So many states are right to work and collective bargaining has been stopped time and time again. In many places the IAFF is nothing more than a "professional association" only and has zero union type powers.

    There are guys I know that say why join...what are they going for me specifically?

    There is another thread on this forum that talks about private firefighters. Some one actually said he won't go to a private FF's funeral because they weren't IAFF. They said they didn't care what happened to these poor guys because they didn't join the union years ago. What does that say to people not in the organization? What does that say to people who have a choice to join or not to join?

    Let's be honest. In most places these days union members who are turned off by what they feel is a bad fight can leave and really see no difference in their day to day job.

    I give L36 credit for concentrating on matters that are actually important to their members.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson


  2. #222
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    Originally posted by L36MAN
    Please don't think for one minute that L-36 is bragging it's feet on this subject, it's not. We are currently involved in many more issues: Arbitration for a pay raise and a contract, we haven't had one in 9 yrs. Arbitration for promotions, numerous unfair labor practices against the Fire Chief. A cheating scandal on the 2000 promotion exam. A special exam for the 2000 promotion exam. A 2002 promotion exam. A total disregard of the Rules and Regulations of the Fire Dept. by the Fire Chief which has caused a 200% increase in Union costs associated W/ trial boards, etc,etc,etc....
    I agree with Fitguy51. Good luck with your problems. I am sure they are significant. I also think that although significant, they are not being handled during every moment the Local 36 office is "open for business". I would be willing to bet that many of the items are either being handled by lawyers who are reporting back to Local 36. I would also be willing to bet that many of the items are in "limbo" while they await court dates, etc. Is Local 36 "dragging it's feet". Sure looks that way to me. Your statement is more of a smoke screen than anything else to hide the true problem. Please feel free to read this article from the Firehouse.com news site of Local 36's President and his stance on this matter which includes the following statement:

    "Raymond Sneed, President of Local 36 in Washington, D.C., believes Local 1619 is looking to increase its membership by causing the number of volunteers to dwindle, and therefore forcing the county government to hire career firefighters."

    Source: http://www.firehouse.com/news/2002/2/6_FHmd.html

    Now, IAFF Brothers and Sisters, where do you think the truth lies? I think you can see from Local 36's President this attitude starts at the top and works down.

    Originally posted by L36MAN
    The "list" that we received from PG L-1619 has some errors on it that need to be addressed. 1 of which falsely charging some of our members. 2 charging cilivans, EMS employees who are members of L-3721 AFGE, we have no power over what they do. 3 why did they only charge some and not others?
    For those members not in violation, all they have to do is provide proof the charges are incorrect. For those in other Locals (3172) or civilians all Local 36 had to do was respond with information saying so. Instead they chose to do NOTHING with the charges other than ignore them. Why some and not the others? If they missed some that you know of please forward those individuals names to Local 1619 and I am sure they would add them to the list. (We don't want them to feel left out.)

    Originally posted by L36MAN
    In time we will address this issue by have a meeting W/ both L-1619, L-1664 and the President of the IAFF. Thank you.
    The meeting has already taken place months ago. PG, Montgomery, Howard and Fairfax were there in the International office in DC and Local 36 failed to show. I guess it was too far to drive?
    By the way, "You're welcome".

    Originally posted by Fitguy51
    L36MAN I guess you do have more pressing business to take care of rather than worry about something that is going on in some other jurisdiction. Good luck with "YOUR PROBLEMS".
    HELLO!! Local 36 is part of the problem Local 1619 is attempting to address!

    Originally posted by truckworker
    1) Firefighter is one word, for those who do not accept that look in a real dictionary.
    Actually, from recent information I have found it is correct either way. Maybe YOU need to spend more time with YOUR nose in the dictionary! (Thank you Callihan for your input on this matter. I am sure you are probably the most qualified person in this thread to determine which is correct.)
    Originally posted by truckworker
    2) Chopper Resolution 43 was accepted by IAFF in August 2001 convention which equates to roughly 6 months not 2-years.
    Thank you for that clarification. I stand corrected. It was August 16, 2001, when Res. 43 was enacted. As a clarification it was enacted from an IAFF By-law change which occurred in August of 2000 at the Chicago Conference. (Article XV Section l. E of the Constitution and By-Laws of the International Association of Fire Fighters, amended August 2000). This by-law prevents IAFF members from volunteering in jurisdictions where other IAFF members work. They can still volunteer, however they can't be an IAFF member. I apologize for my mistake and not being more clear.

    Originally posted by truckworker
    3) The only people this Resolution is going to hurt are the citizens of PG county which every L1619 member SWORE to protect before they were members in any union.....can anyone say "CONFLICT OF INTEREST" by L1619 members???????
    Conflict of interest? I don't think so. You sure are grasping there! As I stated in previous posts there is no proof the IAFF members from other Locals contribute enough volunteer participation to cause damage to the volunteer fire system of PG County. If in fact PG County relies as heavily on off duty career participation it is time for them to go fully paid around the clock and get away from this silly "single pull" crap they are using... I guess you expect us to believe "single pull" is the way to go to protect the public best??? That's hilarious!

    It is rather apparent you don't have that good of a grasp on the issue. The volunteers in question are being given a choice. Volunteer or be a union member, not both.
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-19-2002 at 06:59 PM.
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  3. #223
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    Default I can agree to disagree

    I got half way through page 9 of this thread and couldn't go any farther. This **** isn't anything but Local 1619's version of the Jerry Springer show. 1619 was here when I came into the PG system in 1974, why is not until 1998 that this **** was started? Not that there hasn't been problems long before 98.
    I will tell you why!
    A member of 1619 did something wrong and was disciplined for it. The person who initiated the action was a member of Local 36 who happens to be a Chief officer in PG. I guess if you are a union brother you are suppose to look the other way when you see a brother do something wrong.
    The Local 1619 member and his brothers got ****ed off because he got caught being naughty and had trouble taking the consequences of his actions.
    Local 1619 filed charges on the Local 36 member only to have it thrown out because the Local 36 member was not a member of an organization labeled as a "Rival Organization". Hence, the birth of Resolution 43.
    Resolution 43 was drafted in 1998, why was it sat on and not brought out until 2000?
    Why are the members who volunteer in PG the only group in the country that are being singled out?
    Is their anyone out there that can honestly tell me that PG is the only place in the country that IAFF members volunteer where there is an organized IAFF Local? If there is I have a house at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue I will sell you cheep!
    There was a time here in PG when a career member would asked a volunteer if they were going to be around for the day and if so if they would stand by for them so they could take off.
    There was a time when if they were going out to drill, (yes at one time they did go out and actually drill) they would ask everyone in the house to go.
    There was a time if you screwed up the career staff would take you to the side and say, hey man, that was wrong this is how you should have done it. Not, hey everyone, this *** hole fu*** up what a dumb ***.
    Ah, the good old day's.
    So lets look at what Resolution 43 really is about:
    1 - Retribution on a volunteer Chief officer for doing his J O B.
    2 - A feeble attempt by 1619 to try and get rid of volunteers in order to try and bully and force the County government into hiring more dues paying members for their organization instead of using collective bargaining like other locals do.
    Now I know you are going to have you hard core, die hard, greatest thing god ever put on earth IAFF members claiming these IAFF/volunteer guy's are taking money out of our pockets. Tell that **** to all the trade workers you are robbing when you get off your shifts?
    If you can honestly tell me that if you lived in PG, you would rather have your taxes raised to pay to replace all the volunteers who you want to stop volunteering then I have another building on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue with a big dome on top I can also sell you.
    Now before you start bashing me for my comments, let me tell you I agree with a lot of the issues of 1619. But then again, a lot of the things 1619 complain about the volunteer's goes the same for their side to. Every organization has their *** holes and 1619 is no different. Some of their members do the same things as some of the volunteers. I hear you guy's over there in Mont Co, the **** you say you have to put up with. No one should have to put up with that **** at work. And this goes to one of the issues I happen to agree on with 1619, the popularity contests, oops, I'm sorry, I mean the election of officers. If you have people in your house that are acting like *** holes that shows a lack of leadership.
    There are a lot of other issues that can be said for both sides but there's no sense in going over all of them, I think you get my drift.
    I've said it many times, I think if 1619 and the volunteer Association were to work together on the issues that effect us both the PGFD would be the premier place to work and play. Unfortunately they have chosen to take the path of alienation and dissension, this crap of tow hatters is nothing but a bunch of BULL****!
    One last thing before I go, I get the inclination from some of the remarks from some of you IAFF guy's that you think that unless you are in the IAFF you are not part of the firefighting brotherhood, am I wrong?
    Just my opinion folks, everybody has one!
    Last edited by Jam1902; 02-23-2002 at 02:49 AM.

  4. #224
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    Jam...

    Nicely written post. I will agree to disagree with you. Quite frankly I think both sides have put up their cases and from my biased opinion Local 1619 is right BECAUSE the IAFF has rules and they are attempting to enforce them. Rules are rules, live by them or pay the cost.

    Now, let's talk about my biased opinion. As you are probably aware people, and therefore the fire service, view life from their own perspective. When you implied these issues between career & volunteer didn't exist in 1974. I can tell you that you are flat our wrong. You may not have been exposed to the problem, but you can be assured it has gone back as far as the first career fire guy in history of the world. It may have been subtle, it may have been tolerated, but that is no more. It used to be the paid guys had little, if any, recourse to address BS issues the volunteers brought against them. It was considered acceptable practice for volunteers to attempt to control the destination of a paid mans career. In some areas of the country it still is acceptable practice. Again, you may not have been exposed to it, but this issue is MUCH bigger than what goes on in PG County. When the volunteers run "the show" it all depends upon who won the volunteer popularity contest for "head dude in charge" (NOTE: Much like EVERY ELECTION ANYWHERE) as to who was in charge of "the show". If a sensible person is/was in charge, generally things proceed smoothly. If you get a radical from either side, things go astray. Depending on who won it could be great or horrible for the paid staff that is there trying to work in the system.

    I have been in the fire service since 1981 and an IAFF Local member since 1986 (different jurisdiction than PG). I can tell you that these issues were going on LONG before I entered the fire service and will probably continue long after I leave. Maybe in my position I had a better variety of exposure to both sides of the fire service. I witnessed the game playing first hand and can honestly say I played on both sides of the fence. I know which side I am on now and that is MY PERSPECTIVE...

    Other than points listed above I will take your post at face value and not offer any comment on it. This issue has been beat to death and frankly I am tired of banging my head into a wall telling people that know they are breaking the IAFF by-laws that they are actually doing it. They have been brought on charges and will be addressed. Is that an issue for you? No, not unless you are an IAFF member.

    To answer your question "Are we all a brotherhood?": Sure we are. Please allow me to point something out to you on that. IAFF members are an "elite" group so to speak. You have to be doing this as a profession to be a member. To be an IAFF member the fire service has to be your JOB, not your hobby. Your average career guy puts in about 2000+ hours a year of actually being on the floor drilling, training and running calls. (Yes, we eat and sleep too so no need to point that out...) To be a volunteer you just have to fill out an application, maybe an interview with a membership committed, then MAYBE go through a background check, and you are voted into the group. How many hours do averages volunteers pull a year? MAYBE a coupld hundred? I am sure that would be the exception, not the rule. I would bet it is not anywhere near the career hours on duty unless teh volunteer in question is a "live in" OR doesn't work, have a family, or a life. (That last sentence is not a "thrown stone, so please don't take it that way.) I believe if you think about what I have written you will understand what I mean. I know in your time in the service you have witnessed people like I am referring...

    (Yes, Jam, it is a hobby to be a volunteer. That doesn't make it a bad thing, it was my hobby once also. Now it is no longer a "hobby" for me. It is how I buy my bread and butter and I just can't walk away from it if I want to. What is the life span of the "average" volunteer? 3-5 years? I am committed for at least another 10 years when I may retire and hopefully be healthy.)

    Yes, we are all brothers in the fire service and I AM SURE if the volunteers and the IAFF could find issues to work together things would get done quickly in the political spectrum. Other than "putting the wet stuff on the red stuff" I think you would find the conflicts would be bigger than you realize. Where do you draw the line of "working together"? Sooner or later there will be a conflict. Pick your point of conflict. Should it be staffing, education requirements, promotional requirements, riding assignments, spending money on different items (training, equipment, apparatus the list goes on and on)? Where do we stop? Who is right? What is the "big picture"? If you have not been exposed to these conflicts you should feel lucky. I have been exposed to it and it things are not peaches and cream as I am led to believe you think they were.

    Again, I want to say thanks for your post. Although I think your observations may be tainted (as are mine) I enjoyed reading it.

    Stay safe!
    ~ An Evil Union Guy...

    One more thought after I posted this...

    Jam, you have apparently been around a while and I think you will agree to this: The QUALITY of the average volunteer has decreased tremendously since you, or even I, started. (Same could be said about the career service). That is some of the reason why we in Montgomery County have to deal with the crap that we are having forced upon us.... Just a thought...
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-23-2002 at 10:50 AM.
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  5. #225
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    Reminiscing about PGFD 70's style..... ahhhhhh the memories.....

    Now the only thing we lead the nation in is dissention.

    Is the deaf guy fighting fire? - I never heard.

  6. #226
    MembersZone Subscriber swrr88's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    15 pages of B---hing and name calling. Nice. I vote to close this thread.

    Hopefully there can be some compromise and understanding in the DC-MD-NOVA area between all the sides....one thing is for sure this definitely didn't do any good.

    Good luck and Be safe to all of you.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  7. #227
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    Cool Agreeing to Disagree

    Thanks for agreeing to disagree. Just let me make a couple of points why I think this whole thing is wrong.
    * I was a loyal IAFF member for 8 years, all the while volunteering in PG, nothing wrong with it then. In fact, it was during my time as an IAFF member that I filled in a few times for the career guy's at my volunteer station so they could get off.
    * Some of the guy's from L-36 have been volunteering while being members of L-36 for 15 - 20 years or more and there was no problem up till now.
    * There are IAFF members volunteering in stations with Locals all over the country and the guy's from PG are the only ones being singled out for enforcement of the rule. (Selective Persecution)
    * And I'm sure I'll be corrected if IM wrong, but doesn't it say, or didn't it say, "discourage from" not "prohibited from" volunteering in a jurisdiction with an organized local?
    * The argument of the loss of jobs in my opinion is "null and void" as long as IAFF members continue to take jobs away from union workers on their days off.
    I'm sorry, that was more than a couple but I wanted to make sure I got my point across and hopefully I did, and that is, there is only one group of people being targeted for this rule enforcement. If this rule was being enforced through out the entire membership of the IAFF it may have been a different story, but it's not. It was initiated by L-1619 and it targets only those members that volunteer in PG.
    Now for my biased opinion and for this I will have to repeat myself:
    This is nothing but L-1619's tactic of retribution against a certain few people who they have issues with, and their attempt to try and bully and force the PG county government into hiring more dues paying members for their organization.
    Unfortunately this tactic is going to put not only the citizens of PG in great risk, but also the members of their own local and the rest of the volunteers.
    I have been fortunate in the past few years to have the chance to have personal involvement in the budget process and funding of the fire department. You would think that after 9-11, elected officials would realize the fire department is not a good place to cut and under fund a budget.
    "If" L-1619 is effective in getting rid of over 150 active volunteers they are seriously wrong if they think it will force the PG county government to hire more career firefighters. (I hope everyone doesn't mind, I have always spelled firefighter as one word and will continue to do so) My opinion is, some one will have to be seriously injured or die before they will even address the issue. So they are putting their own members safety and health in jeopardy. Nuff said about that.
    As for your afterthought:
    Jam, you have apparently been around a while and I think you will agree to this: The QUALITY of the average volunteer has decreased tremendously since you, or even I, started. (Same could be said about the career service). That is some of the reason why we in Montgomery County have to deal with the crap that we are having forced upon us.... Just a thought...
    You are absolutely correct, I agree 100%. Minimum training level to be operational in PG is FF1 and EMT. That’s fine to get you started, but after that training should be mandatory all the way through FF3. If someone is going to come in here to do this job and all they are going to do is the minimum FF1 and EMT, then all's they are doing is coming to get their jollies riding on the big red fire engine and aren't really serious about doing the job. As for the same going for the career side, I understand PG has had to lower the score for the entrance exam to 60 in order to get more people qualified. Pitiful, the citizens deserve better than this!
    See, another thing I agree with L-1619 with. Shoot, I'm not that hard to get along with. During the USA hockey game tomorrow I'll throw one back for you!
    USA, USA, USA
    Peace!

  8. #228
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    Default IAFF & volunteering

    The IAFF discourages career FF's from volunteering in FDs that employ FFs. To me it makes perfect sense but that is probably the least significant issue here! Most FDs insurance benefits do not cover injuries sustained while VOLUNTEERING in another FD OFF DUTY. I'd worry more about that than IAFF trying to increase membership!
    The views expressed above are my opinion(s) and do not reflect those of my employer or IAFF Local.

  9. #229
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    Default JAM...

    Just an FYI...
    It is not just happening in PG County. All the Jurisdictions around PG/DC are enforcing it also. It just so happens PG happened to be the place that because a "news story".

    There is some detailed info on that in previous posts I have made... Probably AFTER page 9

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  10. #230
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    Talking Hey Chopper!

    You are correct; it seems that the jurisdictions that boarder PG are jumping on L-1619’s band wagon and trying to enforce the by-law, with the exception of one. But PG is where it all started, and in order for them to be successful they needed the area locals help in enforcing their resolution on members who volunteer in PG.
    This whole thing started with L-1619 trying to retaliate against one volunteer in PG. They brought him up on charges, but the charges were thrown out because the volunteer was not in an organization identified as a “Rival Organization”. This caused the birth of Resolution 43, naming every volunteer corporation in PG as a “Rival Organization”.
    Now to my knowledge, with the exception of about 8 or 10 people from Montgomery, the only other volunteers I know of who are being brought up on charges are the IAFF members who volunteer in PG. If you know of any other jurisdiction that has any volunteers being brought up on charges for volunteering in another jurisdiction that has an IAFF local maybe you can share them with us.
    Can you explain, since this is an IAFF by-law, why it isn’t being enforced across the country? Why just here?
    And is every local that has a career/volunteer system going to have piggy back on Resolution 43 and name each individual volunteer corporation as a rival organization in order to enforce this IAFF by-law?
    And doesn’t the by-law say “discourage” and not “prohibit”?
    If L-1619 hadn’t started this action, would L-1664 be doing it?
    I don’t know how long the IAFF has been in PG but how come this by-law has been ignored up until now?
    One last thing, I commend the President of a local for having the courage, fortitude, commitment and leadership to take a stand that he knows will be an unpopular one and one that they will take heat for. I commend them for not letting themselves be sucked into the personal, self serving agenda of another local and concentrating there efforts on what there job is and that’s to serve the members of their local. I believe that L-1619 has started rolling a snowball that they don’t know how to stop and they will drag down and blacken the eye of any other local that wants to jump on board with them. (Just my personal opinion though)
    Peace!

    PS, If anyone wants to check out information concerning Resolution 43 you can go to mrvfd.org. You can see the actual resolution, letters of charges that are being sent and letters being sent against resolution 43 to elected officials.

  11. #231
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    Jam.
    P.G. just got there first. this has been in the works in montgomery for some time. your answer to why not other places. it had to start someplace.

  12. #232
    MembersZone Subscriber swrr88's Avatar
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    Man. I read the Resolution word by word and its definitely directed to the volunteers of PG county.

    Now, I read the Washington Post article that speaks of a class action suit against the union, and how hundreds of vollies could be gone. That looks real good for the union.

    From Post article-"...Public policy aside," she said, "this also possibly constitutes a restraint of trade and unfair labor practice because it treats some of the nearly 1,200 volunteers differently because they're union members..."


    Then there is the letter from the Chairman of the National Volunteer Fire Council which again paints a nice picture of the local.

    From the letter-"...The National Volunteer Fire Council views your union’s actions discouraging citizens from selflessly serving their community as an attack against the spirit of volunteerism that our country was built upon. These actions are also contrary to President Bush’s recent call for every American to commit to the service of their neighbors and their nation by volunteering in their local communities..."


    Again, I have to mention that besides this newsgroup I have seen absolutely no public support from the international offices or even other locals out of the area. The Iaff site doesn't even list this issue in its around the country section. Its got a article about charity ski competition next month but nothing about this "vital" fight for members safety.

    I hope for the best for all of you, but this looks terrible. Its going to come back and bite you in the A--.

    Let me remind you of the current situation nationally... From the AP-"The AFL-CIO, in an election year with control of Congress at stake, finds itself far short of the $35 million it wants to spend on campaigns and is weighing a mandatory assessment of its member unions to permanently fund its political activities..."-"...Much of the shortfall is being blamed on the recession, which has led to thousands of layoffs of union members, and unexpected expenses from the terrorist attacks. The federation also lost a big dues-paying member last year, the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, which has about 300,000 members"


    Now, looking at that...how eager do you believe they are to kick out a large group of PAYING members?????




    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  13. #233
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    Default SRW & Jam....

    SRW:
    I thought you wanted this thread closed? I see you are still hanging around...

    Don't believe everything you read in the papers. The volunteers here in Montgomery County have been fudging the numbers for years. Finally, when the FLSA blew through town, they admitted the 2000 volunteers they had really were about 300-400 that actually participated in any form of emergency response. The discrepancy accounted for Life Members (many of which are home bound or have not run calls in years, but are still on the rolls), administrative members that don't really do much of anything since each department has a paid secretary, Junior members that were not allowed to ride calls and Honorary members. If there were 1200 members being affected, why were only 43 named in the charges to Local 36? Sounds kinda low for 1/5th of the "Local's" involved, don't you think?

    SRW, what did you think the National Volunteer Fire Council would say??? Come on... You should no better than to even bring that up!

    Losing "paying members"? It is apparent you don't know about "service fee's". If the Local negotiates your contract with your employer they legally collect a "service fee". You don't have to be a union member, they still get your money. (Supported by a ruling in the US Supreme Court).

    Again SRW, I have to wonder from all your past posts if you really are an IAFF member or just posing as one...



    Jam:
    I tell you, I really like reading your posts. It is nice to see someone on here make sense with what they have to say and actually have an intelligent "conversation". (Even if we aren't always agreeing!)

    You asked "Can you explain, since this is an IAFF by-law, why it isn't being enforced across the country? Why just here?"

    It is up to the "home local" to bring other local members up on charges. If they don't bring it up they must not have a problem with it.

    You ask "And is every local that has a career/volunteer system going to have piggy back on Resolution 43 and name each individual volunteer corporation as a rival organization in order to enforce this IAFF by-law?"

    I don't know.

    You ask "If L-1619 hadn't started this action, would L-1664 be doing it?"

    We have been enforcing it with every member brought on charges since August of 2000. Long before Resolution 43.

    You ask "I don't know how long the IAFF has been in PG but how come this by-law has been ignored up until now?"

    I don't know. Maybe someone from Local 1619 could answer that.

    You state "One last thing, I commend the President of a local for having the courage, fortitude, commitment and leadership to take a stand that he knows will be an unpopular one and one that they will take heat for. I commend them for not letting themselves be sucked into the personal, self serving agenda of another local and concentrating there efforts on what there job is and that’s to serve the members of their local. I believe that L-1619 has started rolling a snowball that they don't know how to stop and they will drag down and blacken the eye of any other local that wants to jump on board with them."

    I don't. On this subject I find him a mockery of what a Union is all about and his actions contemptible. He is supporting his Union membership to interfere with the livelihoods of fellow IAFF Brothers and Sisters. Personally, I have had "black eye's" before and will probably have a few more before I am done... (That's just my opinion)

    Thanks again Jam for the posts. I look forward to our next exchange!
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-27-2002 at 07:41 PM.
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  14. #234
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    Chopper Lover...I guess I just can't get away from this thread. It keeps pulling me back in. I can't turn away a good debate.


    I am a member of the IAFF. I respect everyone who is a member of it or any other organization in the field (like the IAEP). I have been on the side of unorganized field providers and it sucks. The IAFF and others provide a voice to the actual workers in an agency. They give them support and security when there is trouble or injury. They are a way for employees to come together and help each other out. They give them a voice to lawmakers looking to shape policy.


    I support all of those ideas.

    However, I don't support trying to push out good members to support someone's agenda.

    A Volunteer is not a threat to job security. Its not a threat to your safety. Its not a "rival organization".

    Professional services in EMS and Fire will continue to grow in the US because of lack of time to volunteer, higher requirements, and recert/education requirements, and a change in what we do day to day.

    I know that many professional members of the IAFF got their start as volunteers in departments just like PG county. I know I did years ago. I can remember friends who got tons of experience which allowed them to become career providers suddenly turning on the very organization that helped get them that job. They would trash the volunteers, curse them, and speak of how they needed to go. It was unbelievable.

    Volunteers play a big role in providing services to communities. They raise tons of money for equipment and tools that would otherwise not be bought. They help connect the citizens to their department... emphasis on THEIR department.

    What you call a SCAB is someone giving their free time to their community. Regular people don't see things like you do. Regular people I know back that way are offended by the whole mess. They don't see it as you guys "protecting" yourselves. They see as you guys trying force the county into a corner at the expense of your own "brothers".

    The best way I can explain it is they see it like a carpenter forcing another carpenter to stop working for habitat for humanity for free because its costing him a job.

    Stop seeing this in a professional firefighter way and see it through the eyes of people who respect their local volunteers and don't even know what the Hell Resolution 43 means.

    I am against this because its a bad fight. Even if you are right and you win...the local is going to look bad. The IAFF is going to look bad. The career staff is going to look bad.

    You can't believe everything you read in the papers. We both know that, but most people do. Perception is Reality when it comes to public support. If you can get a bad slant in the Washington Post, one of the most liberal papers in America, how do think that looks to everyday people?

    We as a whole need to be proactive in our approach to increase staffing. Its city councils and county supervisors that make those choices. Getting in a P---ing contest between each other doesn't help a thing.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  15. #235
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    SWR88... You have good points and you have shed good light on some issues; Extremely intelligent. I have looked at some things differently however...



    "A Volunteer is not a threat to job security. It's not a threat to your safety. It's not a "rival organization". "

    -I hope you have read all of the post. How can you say they are not a rival organization to those of us In Montgomery county (at least)? Do you think we make this stuff up? There are times I fear for my life and the lives of my co-workers dealing with these fools.


    "...Volunteers play a big role in providing services to communities. They raise tons of money for equipment and tools that would otherwise not be bought. They help connect the citizens to their department... emphasis on THEIR department..."

    -Yes they do... however, I have first hand expererience that they lie to the tax payers on where these monies are used. As a tax payer I am "OUTRAGED". Also as a tax payer, these are "MY" fire departments, "Not THEIRS. They are there to SERVE ME".


    "What you call a SCAB is someone giving their free time to their community. Regular people don't see things like you do. Regular people I know back that way are offended by the whole mess. They don't see it as you guys "protecting" yourselves. They see as you guys trying force the county into a corner at the expense of your own "brothers". "

    -Unfortunly most citizens here don't know the career people exsist. "AREN'T YOU ALL VOLUNTEERS?"


    "The best way I can explain it is they see it like a carpenter forcing another carpenter to stop working for habitat for humanity for free because its costing him a job."

    -Again, I'm sorry you are looking in on our system from a computer screen. I for one would not compare these A%#*%#ES to good people doing REAL charity work.


    "Stop seeing this in a professional firefighter way and see it through the eyes of people who respect their local volunteers and don't even know what the Hell Resolution 43 means."

    -Me personally, I see this as a Fire Fighter and a tax payer in MC. I also try my best to educate the public to the real side of this issue.

    "I am against this because its a bad fight. Even if you are right and you win...the local is going to look bad. The IAFF is going to look bad. The career staff is going to look bad."

    -Not to beat the dead horse...but before 11 September we were "JUST" here for a pay check and now after 4+ months we are back to just that again in most eyes and that's a fact alot of us live with on a daily basis. But no matter if we win or lose, I for one can sleep well at night knowing I stood my ground on this issue of not doing my union brothers wrong.

    I can't reiterate enough some of these individuals from local 36 are behind the problems or are not standing up to correct the problems. "LETS JUST TURN A CHEEK"
    Last edited by TILLERMAN-1664; 02-27-2002 at 10:07 PM.
    "VERY PROUD" Union member of the I.A.F.F. as well as my local 1664.
    Notice this is my CAREER not my hobby. Help a burned child. Get involed...not sure how just ask. Marshall
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  16. #236
    MembersZone Subscriber swrr88's Avatar
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    TILLERMAN-1664, You have valid concerns. I am not there with you guys. I don't know what its like on the other side of combination systems because I don't work in an area with vollies and paid together. However, I grew up and got started in Virginia in combination systems as a volunteer. The majority of my family lives in your area now in "Monkey County", Md.

    That's part of the reason I continue to keep up with this thread.

    I can imagine that there are some vollies that scare you on a run. However, I know there are plenty of career guys where I work that scare me to death, too. Volunteers don't have a copyright on stupid people. That has to do with standards which I can prove are just as needed in career staff as in volunteers.

    I can imagine that its hard to be so understaffed. However, we run rigs so short handed some days its amazing. We have open slots for years that go unfilled because of budget issues.

    Equipment? Yea, we have ambulances with 250,000+ miles. Engines and Ladders at the end of their 2nd maybe 3rd lives.

    Misused resources and money? Oh yea. Just like everywhere else in America.

    My point is that your specific problems are unique to your department, but the issues that make up the bigger picture are everywhere. Volunteers or not...they'll still be there. Then the local is going to have to answer what changed? What was gained? Nothing but some personal satisfaction? That won't cut it.

    When the local goes back to the public looking for staffing and they say there aren't enough people...Well, you guys forced a bunch to quit and that was ok.

    When the local goes back to the public and says equipment is out of date...Well, you guys forced the vollies out along with their stuff and this is the only county trucks left.

    When the public comes to the local and says why did the IAFF put the volunteer fire station next door out of business after 50 years...what are they going to say?

    You say that the public doesn't know the career staff exist? Is this how you want them to find out? They are not going to understand what you are talking about. They don't have time to figure it out. They will see the soundbite on the news and that's all they will know.

    The Local 36 issue is a distraction that may make people feel better, but its not going to do anyone any good.

    Results will come with Education, Political Involvement, Standards.

    We need to figure out a better strategy than declaring volunteers as "rival organizations". We are supposed to be professionals. Declaring them as Rivals makes them competition...equals. Highlighting the fact that many volunteers are career firefighters in the nation's capital just drives that point home even more. You can't play the "rival" card and then go back and say they aren't qualified. People won't see the difference between the DC guys and the rest of them.

    We as a entire union need to look long term. PG county, Mont. County, Fairfax County, and the rest will all be 100% professional in the near future. Its a matter of time. It will be quite a change for these areas. We need to be seen as the people that make the change easier for the community. Not as the reason.

    Again, Best of Luck to ALL of you.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

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    SWR – Thanks, I was trying to think last night of a reply for Tillerman, but after so many posts and remarks about this issue I think I’m finally running out of things to say.

    Volunteers don't have a copyright on stupid people.
    How very true! As I wrote in a recent letter to the President of L-1619, of all of the problems he has with the volunteers he has the same problems with his own group. I don’t know why they can’t/won’t admit that. You know, as I sit here typing I just received a fax from a friend who is a Federal Firefighter. The fax is a copy of a letter his local President received from the President of L-1619. It is basically the same letter that is going out to all locals charging their members. But what is actually funny is after the first letter L-1619 sent out to L-36 charging their members it doesn’t seem they learned anything from it.
    For those of you who don’t know let me explain. In the original letter sent from L-1619 to L-36, they left out over half of the names of members that were supposed to be charged. They had names on the list that didn’t even belong to L-36. Now you would think this would teach them to do their homework and research before sending out letters charging people with violations. Well I guess they didn’t learn from the first one. The letter received by the Federal guys has 9 names on it. Out of these 9 names they work for 3 different departments with 3 different locals. So lets repeat, Volunteers don't have a copyright on stupid people.

    “Equipment? Yea, we have ambulances with 250,000+ miles. Engines and Ladders at the end of their 2nd maybe 3rd lives.”
    “When the local goes back to the public and says equipment is out of date...Well, you guys forced the vollies out along with their stuff and this is the only county trucks left.”
    Take a look at the apparatus fleet in PG. With the exception of the 5 new pumpers the county just purchased, the rest of the county fleet is mostly trash trucks. It’s reserve fleet, what reserve fleet. The volunteers came up with a 3rd pumper policy to enhance the county reserve fleet. What the 3rd pumper policy is is that the stations with 3 pumpers can have their 3rd pumper put on county maintenance if they will agree to loan a pumper to a station when needed. Now look at the fleet owned by the volunteers, some of the best apparatus money can buy. All for the use of the career staff while they are working. The county isn’t going to supply them with this kind of apparatus.

    Volunteers or not...they'll still be there.
    So why not try to work with us instead of attacking us?

    You can't play the "rival" card and then go back and say they aren't qualified.
    Is that anything like the “race card”? (Just a little humor)

    We as a entire union need to look long term. PG County, Mont. County, Fairfax County, and the rest will all be 100% professional in the near future. Its a matter of time.
    Sorry, have to disagree on this one. I don’t speak for Mont. Fairfax and the rest but as for PG, it won’t happen in my life time. Just my opinion though!

    Thanks again SWR, you’ve made my day easier.

    Chopper – Thanks for the kind words, I’m humbled. Those same words right back at you. Maybe one day we can get together and have a chilly. You can bring Tillerman, I’d like to buy him one and show him all of us aren’t all that bad!
    Peace!

  18. #238
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    I'll help chip in for the chillies if Tiller arrives steering the back of Quint 40.

  19. #239
    Junior Member TILLERMAN-1664's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Grit
    I'll help chip in for the chillies if Tiller arrives steering the back of Quint 40.
    No, we will leave that piece of junk at home.

    JAM1902... I am sorry for giving you the impression that all volunteers are bad. I was speeking of most of the vollies in MC. Yes as I have posted before you are both correct there are bad apples in both baskets.

    As for the chillies...I am guest bartending at Rock Bottom Brewery in Bethesda, Tuesday March 5 at 7:00. We are trying to raise money for burned children. Come on by, "A" round is on me.

    "VERY PROUD" Union member of the I.A.F.F. as well as my local 1664.
    Notice this is my CAREER not my hobby. Help a burned child. Get involed...not sure how just ask. Marshall
    www.fdnyengine6.org
    www.midatlanticburncamp.org

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    Tiller:

    Unless you're providing day care, I can't take you up on your offer, but thanks.

    If T19 will be parked on Norfolk Av, maybe I'll bring the kids to play!

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