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  1. #261
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    Thumbs down Cover Blown

    Chopper - " You state so many "facts" yet they are all from your viewpoint "
    I base my facts on what comes from their (1619 members) own mouths.

    Again I request you go back and read past page 9 of this thread.
    Read it, understood it. Granted, if this station can't get out yes, it affects your safety. But how does it affect your livelihood? Were the personnel pulled from the station laid off or weren't they just reassigned? I see no lose in pay here, just a different place to work. But look at it this way, if they have so many DC guy's at that station maybe reassigning the MC career staff was a good move. I would imagine tensions would be pretty high between the volunteers and the career staff here due to the current issue.
    Peace
    PS, by the way, it was "President John A. Mutchler" but gave the President thing up 2 years ago, they wouldn't give me a big enough desk!
    Peace again


  2. #262
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    Default

    Hi John. I'm Mark, nice to "meet" you!

    Anyway, you may disagree, but I consider my safety and security as directly affecting my livelihood. As you are aware, when we are put out on a call we expect to have the back up units arrive in a timely fashion and do what they are supposed to be doing. If they don't get out or get out understaffed they are virtually useless to me.

    Maybe if you ask the guy's that were there on shift work and moved to another location how it affected their livelihood. Maybe the Station Commander depended on the differential he received for doing the job. What about the guys on shift work that are now on day work? Maybe they depended on shift work for child care needs. Maybe they are forking out $200/week for day care now that was not planned. Maybe they were breaking even financially prior to that event. Does it affect their livelihood? I think so.

    Maybe I am off base. I know I am biased. But then... Who isn't??? To me, it all matters.

    It still comes down to the same issue. If they want to remain in the IAFF they will need to quit volunteering in "shops" where there are IAFF members. Complain all you want, it is still the bottom line!

    Take Care!
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 03-02-2002 at 06:35 PM.
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  3. #263
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    It is a simple choice. If you belong to a union, you abide by it's rules and regulations regardless of whether you agree with them or not. If you choose to volunteer and are a member of a Local, give up your union card. I read a recent article in the Washington Post where a council person entertained the idea of having a volunteer fire force in Washington DC. However, the President of that Local spoke out that it was a bad idea, but I guess it is ok for his members to spend their days off in surrounding jurisdictions doing it for free. Also, think for a moment- should you sustain an off duty injury, I guess you don't mind burning up all your leave where you work while you recuperate, unless you manage to crawl into work and just happen to fall in the apparatus room and then you could have that jurisdiction pickup the tab for your off duty hobbies. So, that is the bottom line, no great debate over the merits of being a volunteer. And for those of you that gripe about people having side jobs in Union trades such as plumbing and electrical work, before you get on the soapbox about them being scab labor, better make sure that they don't hold a Union card in that trade.

  4. #264
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    Default Boxing Themselves In

    Greetings...I am on the job in DC, vollied in PG from the mid-80's and strongly considering volling in Montgomery County, MD in the near future. IMO, it is a sad state of affairs when the IAFF so called "leaders" of the PG and Montgomery fire service are are pulling out the stops and will undoubtably put the rest of the rank and fill into a box. This will affect the quality of life in terms of pay, schedule, and other benefits for the remainder of the decade.

    In my opinion, the Montgomery Local instead of piggy backing onto 1619 could direct their energy towards a 24/72 work schedule and more pay instead of continually persuing a battle that has been decided overwelmingly by the voters (Question E). PG is getting poorer every year. If the moron leading the union It's really impossible to know what they are hoping to achieve. It's not about saving jobs (I'll address the Fireman Chopper from Mont Co's "jobs' comment in a minute); adding jobs is not going to happen even if a hundred vollies quit tomorrow. The only way this can be perceived is a push to drive out certain volly chief officers in the chain of command. This is pure folly, after all this crap has been going on for three decades.

    Image, whole careers with strained career/volly relations. To make a move against members of L-36, hundreds of which are currently on the job and have had the most fufilling experiences of their firefighting lives and expecting them make a choice between appeasing the IAFF bylaws and the places that taught them to be to have some semblance of satisfaction in the fire service? Anyone with half a brain knows this will drive commitment further toward dedication toward the volunteer organizations. If it ever came down to this, L-36 would have hundreds of union cards tossed.

    You made a choice when you signed onto a combination system. You knew the pitfall and the benefits. This doesn't mean that as a "true believer" in the IAFF by-laws you can't attempt to make changes within your jurisdiction to persue your ideology. It does mean that if you assume a position of union leadership within PG County or Montgomery you have a responsibility for what should be more important...safety, pay and benefits. Unfortunately and sadly, everybody is harassing everybody else on this basically stupid issue.
    After all the brothers who died and the political and social change in our country, this is counter productive.

    I feel more affiliation with the Fraternal Order of Leatherheads (to which a great deal of FDIC instructors belong) than I do to the PLATFORM of the IAFF because of the way this issue has evolved the Washington Metro Area. Don't get me wrong... without the past leadership of my career department's union, I can't imagine to think how much worse my job would be. Unfortunately, the leadership of the surrounding jurisdictions is not doing the same for theirs.

    This is for Chopper, Mr."14 people that no longer have a job." Give me a break. I guess this in reference to position susposedly lost because of the few DC Fireman who volly in Montgomery. BTW: I "buffed" (I guess you can still buff fires even if you're not susposed to volly) a job in Cabin John Friday night. I can't see that having more DFRS personnel on the scene would have helped, since the majority of which were earning their 40K salary on the exterior, and vollies from Rockville were doing it inside, two of which are on the job in Washington. Despite opionions to the contrary (the paid fireman from Mulenburgh, PA who says vollies do it only for thrills and could care a less for the community)I am a homeowner and taxpayer in this county and I want the best person for the job on the knob ANYWHERE IN MY COMMUNITY if m I did notice that the DFRS personnel that were "doing their job" had been or are currently vollies.

  5. #265
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    Default

    Chopper, I agree with you that safety would be a concern if trucks weren't getting out. What policies are in place to get units enroute? Don't the responding crews have the ability to ask for another station? is there a mandatory enroute time before the call is transferred? Is there a standard for how many people can be on a rig before it leaves the station?

    These seem like they would address a large part of the problem. Further more what is understaffed in your opinion? And do you apply that same number to career staff? If a career truck is down a man due to injury or illness do you consider that understaffed? Do you ever have career staff bringing trucks totally alone or with two guys only?

    As for the guy coming in behind you-wouldn't you rather the guy be a professional firefighter in a high volume system than a new guy with no clue?

    Also, the system in PG has been around awhile. Many stations are volunteer by name with career supplement as needed. They were there from the beginning and the system was, too. When you came on didn't you understand how it was set up? Station transfers, volunteer officers and equipment have had to have been part of PG county for a long time-correct?

    Its not like they came into a 100% career system and kicked some guys out of their station bid and told you they were adding vollies at every hall.

    I think that has a lot to do with this whole fight. Who "owns" the system? Is it a volunteer system or a career system? You have volunteer organizations with a very long history that claim they deserve control of their destiny. You have career staff that every year become more and more vital to the system's operation and who want more control and influence. Who is right?

    Every post about the Local 36 guys turns into how the system is set up wrong. I have to go back that it seems these guys are only a target to get back at the volunteers for something.

    You talk about safety and staffing and then talk about how these professional firefighters run calls with you. They're trained and they are obviously there. You say you don't have a problem with volunteers only these guys, but all of your problems seem to deal with the system as a whole.

    Again with the job impact...you have a job. The other guys have a job. Are there not more career staff in PG county than when you came on? Is there not going to be more career staff in PG county in the coming years?

    Resolution 43 is a bad rule. I understand the concept of scab work and taking part time work, but when did we as a profession decide that Volunteers were bad people? Like we have some sort of RIGHT to a job. Like any system that has a paid guy should suddenly give itself up to being 100% career or be considered scab labor. You name one other profession that actively seeks to ban its members from giving their free time to help out. Another profession who considers what most call charity as scab work. A volunteer is not taking a job away from anyone because there wasn't one there to begin with. If you say he prevents the creation of one then you would have to ban volunteers throughout the entire country. Afterall, if BFE Utah didn't have any volunteers they would have to have career staff who could be IAFF members....better kick out any members running the 3 calls a year there because they are taking a job away from someone.

    We are not in competition with volunteers. You treat them like a private company coming into town to undercut you. Career staffing was created to replace volunteers who could no longer keep up. There is nothing shameful in that. They do a community service and when they can no longer do it then they are replaced. Now we want to speed up the process because we are tired of waiting for them to die out. Its crazy.

    Say what you want about rules but its not right. Kicking someone out for doing something he's been doing for decades because some of us want more jobs that weren't there to begin with is wrong.


    One more thing...As for firefighters working side jobs and having a union card from that trade......your kidding right? I'm sure some do but I have been involved in fire/ems in four states and I think its safe to say its not the majority of them. Again-how that's allowed and volunteers aren't makes absolutely no sense.


    Good luck to ALL of you
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  6. #266
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    Default Re: Boxing Themselves In

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    Greetings...I am on the job in DC, vollied in PG from the mid-80's and strongly considering volling in Montgomery County, MD in the near future. IMO, it is a sad state of affairs when the IAFF so called "leaders" of the PG and Montgomery fire service are are pulling out the stops and will undoubtably put the rest of the rank and fill into a box. This will affect the quality of life in terms of pay, schedule, and other benefits for the remainder of the decade.
    Addressing this issue is long over due. I stand behind my union brothers in their attempt to enforce a by-law which was passed with an unanimous vote at the Chicago Conference in August 2000. How do you think it will affect your Local 36 "Brothers" will affect our pay, schedule or other benefits? I believe this has been addressed in a previous post. Feel free to go back and read it.

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    In my opinion, the Montgomery Local instead of piggy backing onto 1619 could direct their energy towards a 24/72 work schedule and more pay instead of continually persuing a battle that has been decided overwelmingly by the voters (Question E).
    What makes you think Montgomery County is going to "piggy back" onto Res 43? I don't know who you are getting your info from, but you need to utilize better sources. As for our work schedule, there is no way we will talk our employer into hiring another shift any time soon. Just isn't going to happen. As for more pay, our recently ratified contract, when/if approved by the County Council, will give us a substantial increase over the next three years. Again, you need to do your homework before you spout off. As for "Question E" it was determined the voters did not wish a change to the charter. In reality a change of the charter did in fact occur and we do now have one person in charge of the entire system. Did we win the vote? No. Did we win the battle? Sure did! Furthermore, Question E has nothing to do with this issue.

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    To make a move against members of L-36, hundreds of which are currently on the job and have had the most fufilling experiences of their firefighting lives and expecting them make a choice between appeasing the IAFF bylaws and the places that taught them to be to have some semblance of satisfaction in the fire service? Anyone with half a brain knows this will drive commitment further toward dedication toward the volunteer organizations. If it ever came down to this, L-36 would have hundreds of union cards tossed.
    If your ability to volunteer is so important, toss your card. I don't want you in my union. I would like you to answer this for everyone. Why is it when asked by a city council member your Local President expressed great distrust for the volunteer system and strongly opposed the idea of one being created in Washington, DC? Is it "do as I say, not as I do"?

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    You made a choice when you signed onto a combination system. You knew the pitfall and the benefits. This doesn't mean that as a "true believer" in the IAFF by-laws you can't attempt to make changes within your jurisdiction to persue your ideology. It does mean that if you assume a position of union leadership within PG County or Montgomery you have a responsibility for what should be more important...safety, pay and benefits.
    You made a choice when you joined the IAFF (assuming you are a member). Part of that choice was to follow their rules. They are there for a reason, to protect their employees. Toss your card if you wish. I can tell you this, if you are a member of Local 36 and come volunteer in Montgomery County, we will come after that card you so eagerly wish to toss.


    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    I feel more affiliation with the Fraternal Order of Leatherheads (to which a great deal of FDIC instructors belong) than I do to the PLATFORM of the IAFF because of the way this issue has evolved the Washington Metro Area. Don't get me wrong... without the past leadership of my career department's union, I can't imagine to think how much worse my job would be. Unfortunately, the leadership of the surrounding jurisdictions is not doing the same for theirs.
    The surrounding jurisdictions are doing their jobs. Protecting their membership and following the IAFF by-laws. You know, by-laws, rules. That's right, your Local President doesn't seem to think they matter. (Statement supported with an article from Firehouse.com link in a past post).

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    This is for Chopper, Mr."14 people that no longer have a job." Give me a break. I guess this in reference to position susposedly lost because of the few DC Fireman who volly in Montgomery.
    Already addressed this, go back and read it.

    Originally posted by dcfdlt
    BTW: I "buffed" (I guess you can still buff fires even if you're not susposed to volly) a job in Cabin John Friday night. I can't see that having more DFRS personnel on the scene would have helped, since the majority of which were earning their 40K salary on the exterior, and vollies from Rockville were doing it inside, two of which are on the job in Washington. Despite opionions to the contrary (the paid fireman from Mulenburgh, PA who says vollies do it only for thrills and could care a less for the community)I am a homeowner and taxpayer in this county and I want the best person for the job on the knob ANYWHERE IN MY COMMUNITY if m I did notice that the DFRS personnel that were "doing their job" had been or are currently vollies.
    I pulled up the call you are talking about. It was a 2 alarm fire with multiple attics and roofs. All the crews were pulled from the structure except for ten people (first 2 engines and trucks I believe). They were pulled because of the "moth to the flame" syndrome. Because of that "syndrome" the stairway interior stairway was blocked from any egress should there have been an emergency. The crews were ordered out and rotated back in as needed. Sounds like a safety issue and good management to me. I guess you didn't think about that before you started throwing stones. Now if we want to discuss "yard birds" I know that DC has their fair share of them also. Nobody likes them, everyone has them. Nothing you can do about it. As for the origins of the DFRS personnel I will ask you this. Don't most of the people employed in the fire service have previous experience? What's your point? Oh, that's right, you probably don't have one.

    Now, you have given all this info and still have not addressed the issue. The issue is this:
    The IAFF has a by-law. The by-law is to be followed or consequences will occur. Your co-workers have broken those rules, now they are on charges. The choice is theirs. Let them make it.
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 03-03-2002 at 08:49 PM.
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  7. #267
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    Originally posted by swr88
    Chopper, I agree with you that safety would be a concern if trucks weren't getting out. What policies are in place to get units enroute? Don't the responding crews have the ability to ask for another station? is there a mandatory enroute time before the call is transferred? Is there a standard for how many people can be on a rig before it leaves the station?
    There is a three minute time any unit is given to check on the air as responding. After that 3 minute time the next closest unit is dispatched. Units are required to have proper staffing. For fire apparatus it is 3 personnel which include a qualified driver, qualified unit officer and qualified fire fighter. (Qualifications are determined by the County Fire & Rescue Commission). The unit officer is required to call for manpower should they go out understaffed. Understaffed could be missing any of the 3 people (of course they have to have a driver).

    Originally posted by swr88
    Further more what is understaffed in your opinion? And do you apply that same number to career staff? If a career truck is down a man due to injury or illness do you consider that understaffed? Do you ever have career staff bringing trucks totally alone or with two guys only?
    I have to go by the standards. My opinion is we should have no less than 4, preferably 5, 6 or 7, on the fire apparatus, 3 on the medic and 2 on the ambulance. Yes, it is understaffed until someone is hired back in that persons place. We do go with 2, sometimes driver only, and always understaffed.

    Originally posted by swr88
    As for the guy coming in behind you-wouldn't you rather the guy be a professional firefighter in a high volume system than a new guy with no clue?
    I would rather a seasoned guy, but that isn't always the case. As long as I know what I have to work with I adjust accordingly.

    Originally posted by swr88
    Also, the system in PG has been around awhile. Many stations are volunteer by name with career supplement as needed. They were there from the beginning and the system was, too. When you came on didn't you understand how it was set up? Station transfers, volunteer officers and equipment have had to have been part of PG county for a long time-correct?
    I'm not in PG. Can't answer that. I can say the system is ever changing and people have to change with it...

    Originally posted by swr88
    You talk about safety and staffing and then talk about how these professional firefighters run calls with you. They're trained and they are obviously there. You say you don't have a problem with volunteers only these guys, but all of your problems seem to deal with the system as a whole.
    It's Union Ethics... Simple as that.

    Originally posted by swr88
    We are not in competition with volunteers. You treat them like a private company coming into town to undercut you. Career staffing was created to replace volunteers who could no longer keep up. There is nothing shameful in that. They do a community service and when they can no longer do it then they are replaced. Now we want to speed up the process because we are tired of waiting for them to die out. Its crazy.
    Interesting. I guess it shows you don't work in a combined system. What do you think of the volunteer corporation writing letters to the County Council stating it is the "Corporations Opinion" the career guys should not get raises? That to me sounds like someone attempting to undercut the career staff. They will be unsuccessful, yet they still try. That is the mentality of volunteer we have to deal with where I work.

    Again, this is about following the IAFF by-law. Simple as that.
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  8. #268
    Member Chopper Lover's Avatar
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    Default

    Thanks to all on this thread who have engaged in an intelligent and respectful discussion. I am now tired of banging my head against the wall and will leave it for someone else to pick up the slack... Not to mention I have been accused by coworkers that I am picking on people that are somewhat "challenged".

    Since it will probably take an act of congress to submit another post on this issue, I leave you all with one final word.

    "Bye!"
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  9. #269
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    Default A question

    Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    Fighting31. Its not about toys and it isnt about volunteers per se. This is about UNION firefighters violating UNION rules. Not about who can **** the farthest.
    Ok if resolution 43 is about UNION firefighters violating UNION rules then why are all PG County Volunteer Organizations "rivals"? Can somebody explain that to me? If you union folks have problems with each other than why did you drag us volunteer organizations into the fray?

    Keep safe all fire fighters regardless of status of career or volunteer.

  10. #270
    MembersZone Subscriber swrr88's Avatar
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    Cool

    To Chopper and the rest of the posters I thank you for a good, hard debate.

    I, too, am leaving this thread....I know I said the same thing awhile ago...this time its for real.

    My wife and I are taking the honeymoon we never got to take before, and will be gone for a week. So, I am finally being physically pulled away from this thread.

    I wish all of you guys in the area all the best. I hope things work out and you all stay safe. I'll think about you while I am sipping on my drink on the beach....ahhhh


    Thanks again for the hot topic.

    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  11. #271
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    Post Can't we all just get along?

    Come on guys...I've been following this issue for quite awhile now and all I really have to say is, "Whatever happened to the Brotherhood?" We are all brothers in this for we are firefighters. Whether you be paid, vol., or union we all proform the same job and hopefully all are on the job for the same reason. We are public servents, it shouldn't matter what walk of life, race, or even union or vol you hail from. We are firefighters. To this affect I make post this simple question to the union, "Why was PGFD placed as a rival organization?" They are firefighters..just as you..there is no difference here, we all wear the same badge with the same ideals or atleast we should. I understand that 43 is part of the by-laws, but my question lies in why the Union decided to place them in "bad-standing" as it were. It makes little sense to place brothers out side the realm of what is right. I say that in terms of the overall picture and I will not sit here and say that the IAFF does nothing for its members, because they do, do great things. However, I do question the mindset of Union leaders that list fellow firefighters..though non-union..as rivals. All I say is let this set behind us..settle this on different terms. The brotherhood doesn't need to fight within its self in such a time of need. We are all firefighters and never forget that. Stay safe brothers, every one.

  12. #272
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    Default If I May

    RTFD2909 – If I may, let me try to briefly answer you question "Why was PGFD placed as a rival organization?"
    First, it was not PGFD, it was all of the individual volunteer fire corporations which make up the Prince Georges County Fire Department!
    L-1619 of PG County filed charges on a volunteer Chief Officer who happens to be a career firefighter in DC and belongs to there IAFF local. They did this because the volunteer Chief had a member of L-1619 disciplined for doing something wrong and they got ****ed off about it. Bottom line is, and they will tell you this themselves, they don’t feel they should have to answer to or take orders from any volunteer no matter what their rank is. When the issue went to the trial board it was thrown out because the volunteer Chief Officer’s station he was from was not labeled or considered as a “Rival Organization” hence the birth of Resolution 43. L-1619 drafted the resolution and named every volunteer corporation in PG County as a "Rival Orgainzation" so they could continue to try and force people who volunteer in PG and belong to the IAFF in other jurisdictions to stop volunteering in PG. That is the brief version of Resolution 43. If you would like to learn more on it and see the actual resolution you can go to
    www.mrvfd.org and click on the Resolution 43 information. I hope this answered your question.
    Peace!

  13. #273
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    Lightbulb Thoughts to ponder

    Interesting, thank you for that update. Here is a continuation of my point. Why PG? The same type of departments exsist all over the country where union members vol. their time in near by counties they live in. For example, and most likely the largest, would be Nassua county Long Island where a large number of FDNY firefighters vol. their time while they are off shift. However, there is no issue in that county over the whole union-vol or resolution 43. So, my question still stands in question of union leaders who have chosen to place those PG departments on the rival list where there are other similar situations country wide that are not under the same standards. This can be solved outside of forcing members to choose. It does sound like something occured with in PG that needs to be addressed, no question there. However, is asking Union members who have decided to spend THEIR free time in PG the way to solve that tension? It sounds to me like it is only adding to the stigma within the county system. We are all brothers let us solve our differences on our level and professionally. Not in some little kid game, because that's all this is really turning out to be. Don't scarifice professionalism to a simple departmental issue that should be handled by the county as a whole.

    As always, stay safe brothers and god bless

  14. #274
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    Default

    This issue will never be resolved and we all agree on one thing...and that is...we disagree...

    But...a few posts back CMC hits it on the head.... "Feuding"...This is a result of toes that have been stepped on and feelings that have been hurt by volunteers harassing career folks and career folks harassing volunteers. It does not matter who started it... End it!

    Grow up....Can't we all just get along???? There is more to this little fued in PG that we all know about. As I have told others...I have read about fistfights on the fireground between career and volunteers over who is in charge.... Most of which I understand were a result of the career side saying..."I am paid...I am in charge!"

    I agree with the writer who said save the $200... I would likely resign the union to be able to serve my volunteer department. I would most likely resign over this even if there was no IAFF or career staff in my volunteer station. The implication is there...the implication that, "you are not welcome if you volunteer." Yes...I know it only applies to IAFF Departments or Departments with career people....but sooner or later, some one is going to begin harassing the firefighter who volunteers miles away (despite lack of IAFF and Career Staff) in a small department. The harassers reason will be that by volunteering there the "volunteer" is taking someone's career job. I have heard it from IAFF officials (local ones) in those exact words....

    What constitutes a career Department??? What if a IAFF member volunteers in a small town that has only volunteers and they are in a county that has no career firefighters. Suddenly at the request of the Department, the Town hires a paid driver. Still the only one who is paid in an entire county and this is in a small municipality within the county. Does this make it a paid department and does that IAFF member now have to quit the IAFF or stop volunteering?
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  15. #275
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    Post Well put

    I agree 100% capt. I read over all the stories of the fist fights and what not. Those facts cannot be disputed as far as I am concerned for they are in writing that most are started by paid members. Which is highly unfortunet. Like I said in one of my first posts, "What ever happened to the brotherhood?" but now I had a new line to that, "What ever happened to respect of rank?" If you choose to work in a dept such as PG county you should still recognize the ranks of the fire officers on that fire ground no matter what their back ground for they carry the brass for a reason. Next I'd like to point out to the Union, that if union members are starting these fights where is it their place to name the vol as the "rivals" when then union members are part of the problem. As I stated, this is a county level problem and should be handled as such by the administration of PGFD. IAFF should allow any who chose to vol to vol for that is there right to provide service in their free time to their communities. Once again, capt, you are right..no one will ever agree on this issue..but it does need to stop..the stigma and the tension is not worth it..and its only going to lead to more problems and may some day end up getting people killed and what then?

  16. #276
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    Thumbs down Easy Choice!

    Venerable Captstanm1,

    I am haunting you, over from your poll, to clarify some points.

    Fueding, fistfights, and a "friend three times removed told me" all leads up to a good storyline. I read what was posted as facts on the www.mrvfd.org, and on Res. #43, and see the issues. I failed to read about volunteer bashing, or other contrived events.

    I understand and warm heartedly applaud your intense morals and "beyond reproach" integrity in standing up for your part time/volunteer organization, as this is all about politics in YOUR mind. I would imagine we both agree as people, there is no room for politics within the fire service. It leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth, and all parties involved lose in the long run.

    However, you do not have this decision to make, as you are NOT an IAFF member, nor will your large volunteer FD pension and long term goals be affected by your decision. Not only can you make a decision hypothetically, but you can foresee into the future, of EXACTLY where this issue is going to end up!!! All volunteers will be eviscerated by nuclear holocost, should the evil IAFF have their way. It will even affect Punkin's Corners FD in the Ozarks, who have a $500.00 annual budget. Gee, maybe you should start your own 900 number?

    Full time firefighters who violate the Constitution of the IAFF and their Local, still have the freedom of choice. They can still volunteer wherever they want to, as it is a free country. (AMEN) However, they are losing the priviledge (NOT RIGHT) due to their decisions, of belonging to an organization. They will be able to save the $200.00 Union Dues, and work hand in hand beside you, happy in their moral perpetude. The problem is solved, they are where they wish to be, and we all get along.

    Maybe if the offending IAFF members contributed more to their organization, they could effect change in a much more positive manner within their own Department, Union and selves? Just food for thought.

    Stay safe, EVERYONE!

  17. #277
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    We agree on one thing Fire 61...No room for politics....

    oh yea..another thing we agree on....We agree to disagree...

    By the way...I know you are being "wise" when you reference my "volunteer pension"...well..for the record, I do not collect one from the volunteer department I served in Virginia, although at age 55 I think I will draw $180.00 month (screwed by politics...hehehe)

    I am not olde enough to collect my state retirement yet so I work....and volunteer and will soon work as a part time firefighter (I think)

    As for a friend 3 times removed????? Ok..let me re-state...I read in the newspapers when I live in Virgina of fist fights on the fireground, apparatus speeding through busy intersections to "beat the other", hazing of volunteers, hazing of career firefighters in PG County. No one told me...I read it...

    You are right...IAFF Members have a choice. My beef is they should not have to make that choice... Yes..I am not a union member and will not be affected. I have friends who may be. My son is a dedicated volunteer and in the process of seeking a career job. He loves the volunteer fire department and I feel he will chose not to belong to the IAFF to keep from having to quit as a volunteer since there are now "career staff" in the county he volunteers in as well as one (1) career firefighter paid by his town govt as a glorified driver. He should not have to make that choice.

    You have not answered my one question...What constitutes a "career Department"...does one guy who is not IAFF but paid a salary constitute a career department? I know of at least 6-8 (maybe more) members that would have to quite the Department if that is the case or....of course quit the IAFF. Them quitting the department would devastate it....but not enough to force the Town to hire more people. So.....who suffers...?

    By the way...I am honored to have this response to my neighbor in the north to be my 400th post
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  18. #278
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    Default

    One good thing that is coming out of this issue is that my typing skills have improved tremendously. I haven't done this much writing since school and no I won't tell you how long ago that was. Lot's of good conversation, but I would like to pose another question;
    Firefighter A has been working for Fire Department Z for 22 years and has been a member of IAFF Local 1 the whole time. Firefighter A has also been a volunteer for 20 of these years in the jurisdiction next door where he lives that has an organized IAFF local. Up until now it hasn't been a problem.
    (This is not a fictional person, the names have been changed to protect the innocent!)
    The question is, why has it taken 20 years to tell Firefighter A he can not volunteer anymore because he is in violation of a by-law that someone just dug up out of the by-law book to use for their own purposes?

    captstanm1 - congrats on #400, you da man!

    Oh, and by the way, I didn't see anyone sign my Guest Book at mrvfd.org!

    Peace!

  19. #279
    Member Fire61's Avatar
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    Angry Wanna See Fur Fly???

    Dear Stan,

    I realized when I wrote my last post, that should firefighters have exchanged blows, that each and every firefighter here would cringe, at the loss for all of us in respect from the public, and the shame we have endowed upon ourselves, regardless of who did what. Respecting the fact that your knowledge was factual, we are of the same opinion on the insanity of brainless twits resorting to violence.

    I am unsure of what constitutes a career department, for I think it is not the Department, but the group of people covered under the negotiated contract that matters. Just a blind guess, for I am not familiar with the prerequisites.

    I also think you will agree that we both can be very proud of our FD positions, regardless if you are part time, or I am an IAFF member. Let me know? (Congrats on number 400!)

    Dear Mr. Jam....

    I like the alphabet game. By playing the "What if" game, let me carry this further. (Actual reality in this scenario as well)

    Firefighter B was just told by Fire Department X that he has lost his job, as City Council has decided to let Firefighter A and other volunteers from Fire Department Z, to man the stations in the name of fiscal resposibility and as everyone has to be able to "do more with less".

    Firefighter B belongs to the same Association as Firefighter A but in a different Fire Department, so has no recourse but to look for another job. Firefighter A is satisfied as he gets more part time income and can protect the community he lives in, plus he still has his full time job to make ends meet. The next time Firefighter A goes shopping he picks up some items for the food bank and Firefighter B, as bretheren look after each other that way.

    (HINT: He purchased a can of Alphabet soup! )

    This part of the Constitution has been debated, disputed and tried to have been enforced for many years, all over North America. I am sure it will be, long after I retire. I don't know all the answers, I just know fists aren't one of them, as a knuckle sandwich is hard to swallow.

    Stay safe, all.

  20. #280
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    Default

    First of all, don't take these comments to mean that I suuport what is happening on the union's end. I am a card-holding member of the IAFF, and also work part-time on my off days in a small village fire department. We, as members of the IAFF deicide on all issues of our International's Constitution through annual votes. And we, as members have allowed this resolution to pass last year. The IAFF's stance for years has been that they do not want their members working part-time on their off days in other union-departments. I totally support this stance, and have not worked one day in another union house part time (my part time department is all part-time with no union at all). And in response to the claim that there could be full time personnel there if there was no part time is not valid for this department since the budget would afford one full time FF if all the part timers we fired/quit/left/whatever. The latest resolution now stated that we shouldn't work in any fire department, in any capacity in our off days, (even as volunteers) regardless of the station's union affiliation (if any) because of the risk of being injured off duty from our career jobs. This is a choice that all union members must make for themselves if they want to run the risk of injury off duty, and potentially lose you pension. This should not become a IAFF issue since everyone's pension is different from state to state. I am not in any way complaining about the IAFF's stance.

    My point being this; as I mentioned earlier, we vote on our issues as members, and we have voted this issue in place. If we don't agree with it, then we should try and reverse this. Don't waste your time bitching about the IAFF (especially if you don't attempt to vote on any issues) as some sort corporate monster that is dictating anything to us, because the IAFF is ALL OF US. Your brothers and sisters have made this decision for ALL OF US. The other option for the members is Prince George's county is to vote within their local to stop this, since the locals must enforce any resolutions from the International. The International isn't going to single any one person out unless their local reprimands them through the higher levels.

    Take initiative and interest within your locals, and participate and make the union work for you, not against you. WE make our union what it is.

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