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  1. #21
    MembersZone Subscriber InAndUp's Avatar
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    Anybody that thinks that the IAFF does not want it's members to volunteer so they increase their membership is out of touch.

    What about heart and hypertension? As a Union, how are we supposed to fight for heart and hypertension benefits when members are spending their days off with volunteers depts.? Why in the world would any board grant a member benefits when they cannot prove that the paid job was the source of the heart and hypertension issue?

    Wages...the reason every person in America works, to support their family. As a Union, we go into contract negotiations and ask for a raise. If half of a dept. volunteers, the city management already knows what you will work for...nothing. That is some pretty huge leverage for them to not offer raises in a contract.

    In my dept., we cannot volunteer. I hear people whine about that. But yet these people still drive around with IAFF stickers on their vehicles. If the Union is such a pain in your behind, go out to your vehicle right now and scrape the sticker off it.

    The municipalities also benefit from this rule with regards to worker's compensation issues.

    But, one of the biggest issues to think about: If I get hurt as a volunteer (which I once was), the vol. dept. would not pay me my paid firefighter salary. Is it worth it? I love being a firefighter as much as the next guy (maybe more), but I love my family more and will not do anything that would compromise their quality of life.

    This may not be you now, but if you get a paid job - think about being denied raises and heart and hypertension benefits (let's hope none of us ever need to file for them!). All of a sudden, it will be an issue for you, won't it?

    I'm amazed at how many people (who are not Union members) can talk with such authority on a topic they have no clue about.


  2. #22
    Junior Member TILLERMAN-1664's Avatar
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    Default Well said INANDOUT...

    The Vollies in our system benefit from most of the issues we as a union bargin for. Who do they think gets them all the safety, grants, tuition, and workmans comp. money they receive for volunteering in our system. They do receive these things and get it in some sort of pass through. But hey, we are the bad guys.
    "VERY PROUD" Union member of the I.A.F.F. as well as my local 1664.
    Notice this is my CAREER not my hobby. Help a burned child. Get involed...not sure how just ask. Marshall
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  3. #23
    Forum Member MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
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    DC FF, I re-read your post. It really bothers me that you think of your FULLTIME firefighting job as just drawing a paycheck, while your volley gig is for "satisfaction" You work in one of the busiest departments in the nation. I bet your brother volunteer firefighters just eat that up...and it reinforces the unfortunate stereotype that professional firefighters are only in it for the money. The post stated that the Union is there to "serve" you. You are a member of an organization that works very hard to lobby for benefits and safety issues for its membership. What have you done to improve your Local? Do you put in the same amount of effort to inprove your job? Is it as much time as you spend on your "satisfying" hobby?
    Last edited by MIKEYLIKESIT; 02-08-2002 at 03:50 PM.

  4. #24
    Senior Member apatrol's Avatar
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    This IAFF policy is a very bad idea. As a taxpayer it absolutely kills me to think of all the money that is spent paying for services that are not needed or can be done cheaper. If my local Govt can pay two guys to ride a truck and two more volunteer(meeting minimum safety reqs)they can lower my taxes or use the excess 80,000 to feed some hungry kids, clean up a bum, or fix the freaking radios.

  5. #25
    Forum Member KeithA8's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    In&Up:
    You took the words right out of my mouth brother. Very well said!!! These Scabs forgot the oath! I'm serious when I say this - It's not a paid/voly war. It's an issue that effects all carreer firefighters. If you don't like the union then quit! You knew the job before you took it. Don't bitch about it now.
    IAFF member, Love this job! Remember the oath!

  6. #26
    Senior Member Smoke286's Avatar
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    Let me get this strait DCFF, your going to quit a paid firefighting position because they dont want you to volunteer in the same jurisdiction. Dont you think you should maybe reconsider before you take so drastic a step.

  7. #27
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    Red face

    Not all station's in PG are like what Mr. 1664 has said. No one should have to work under those conditions if they are as drastic as he says. Yes there are lemons on both side's but property distruction and fist fights? On a daily basis? I find this hard to believe.......PG is run very differently then MC also........In MC the volunteers tell the career what to do. Not quite that way in PG it's all in training and rank. In PG it's the volunteer money that get's equipment, training, dishes, apparatus, etc. The county is made up of mostly low income families so taxe income isn't much and getting something from the county is like pulling teeth. There are bigger issue's to be faught here that 1619 could be spending more of their important time on, especially since they didn't even name everyone who scabs they only selected a few.

    Pg will never be able to go to an all career department, hell they lower their standards to try and get a class of recruits and can't get enough people, let alone have the money to pay for it!

    I am not a scab just a volunteer.....in my blood, don't cause any problems and do my job with proffesionalism and dignity.

  8. #28
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    Default HUH?

    Originally posted by Smoke286
    Let me get this strait DCFF, your going to quit a paid firefighting position because they dont want you to volunteer in the same jurisdiction. Dont you think you should maybe reconsider before you take so drastic a step.
    Where did he say he was quitting? He works for D.C. He's not volunteering in the same jurisdiciton....Don't you think you should at least have a clue before offering advice?

  9. #29
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    I wasn't going to comment on this since I don't live in PG but since it is once again turning into a paid vs. vollie debate, I'll throw my 2 cents in:

    How can a union (or an employer for that matter) tell it's members what they can and cannot do on their day off?

    Most of these guys are serving the communities they live in, why fault them for that? They have experience, training and expertise that benefits their local department. Most of them were on their volunteer departments before they got their paid jobs in other areas. Should they just abandon their friends and neighbors in the volunteer department after they get a paid job?
    FTM-PTB-DTRT

  10. #30
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    Had a chat with a Lt. that is a IAFF member this morning. He has been on the job for over 20 years. When asked about the PGFD thing he said that it has been tried before but the courts declared it unconstitutional. I guess they must be trying a new approach.

  11. #31
    Forum Member thefyreman's Avatar
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    Lightbulb hmmmm...

    Tillerman-1664, if I was in error in saying that MC doesn't have a problem with their firefighters being volunteers in other jurisdictions, I stand corrected - I was only making that observation by what I know, which is that there are quite a few MC firefighters that are volunteers in Frederick County and other jurisdictions near Montg. County (and Frederick County is a combination department, as well). Sorry to hear that you have such a harsh work environment on a daily basis, but like CMC122 said, not all stations in PG are like that - I sincerely hope things get better for you. One other thing you said has me confused.... I REALLY can't believe that the IAFF pays Workers Compensation and tuition for the volunteers I always thought that the Maryland State Firemen's Association paid the insurance for workers comp and the tuition-reimbursement program -otherwise, how would the vollies in the rural counties with all volunteer systems get any of those benefits?

    IN&UP - You bring up an excellent point, but the same questions would be there no matter what a person does on his off time - what about a firefighter that works construction on his off days (and there are quite a few of them) and he develops tinnitus, and claims it to be job-related from firefighting? Heart problems, high blood pressure and many other chronic health problems that can be caused by firefighting can also be caused by many other vocations (or "hobbies", as MIKEY likes to say). It does lend food for thought, though, on workers comp claims being brought by someone who is both a volunteer and a career firefighter.

    WTFD10 - well said - it just doesn't make sense to me to tell a person he can't do something that provides a benefit or service to his community and he might even be able to... (should I say it?)... teach the volunteers a thing or two.
    - Remember our brothers in FDNY -

  12. #32
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    I believe one of the big problems was posted on the Kentland site a few months back. They moved a rig to another station to save the County OT. Thereby taking 4 brothers OT away, a good chunk of change in anyone's pocket.
    If you're a Union truck driver and someone volunteers to drive for free, taking away OT for you, you'd be ticked too. Same thing in any union shop. I don't see how you can be a union firefighter in one juridiction and then take money from a union firefighter in another. I'm sure there are those in the membership that would like to see every ff in the US be a paid IAFF member.
    Another item for the IAFF overall is health and wellness of the members. If a man has lung problems, whose jurisdiction did it come from. Do you only get 1/2 your benefits from a diability pension?

    Personally I'd like to see the rules change. But until they do, I'm staying a one dept man holding my union card.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-RTB

    Stay low, keep pushing in, and stay safe.

  13. #33
    Junior Member TILLERMAN-1664's Avatar
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    CMC122:
    I pubically apologize here. I was not trying to imply that all volunteers in PG County are bad. (Thus the comment "...there are apples in BOTH baskets that are bad...") You are also correct in the differences in our two jurisdictions however, our jurisdictions are not that different from each other. The majority of the money may come from different locations such as tax bases, fundraisers, etc... but as much as I don't want to admit it, (as a career man) career people in Montgomery and PG County are there to supplement the volunteers. The volunteers have most of the political control. Please forgive me, I am not trying to start a volunteer/career thing; I am not trying to open that can of worms. I was just trying to bring to attention all the individuals across the country who read the posts, that our systems are much much different than what they are used to.

    Thefyreman:
    To you I apologize if my post was misleading. I am not saying that the IAFF pays out the Workman's Comp money or tuitions. What I was trying to say is that as a local, when we go to the bargaining table with the county, we achieve better Workman's Comp benefits, more tuition assistance, better safety issues even the right to where Pro Boots. This directly or even indirectly passes to the volunteers in my system. Montgomery County gives them all of these items as well as us.
    "VERY PROUD" Union member of the I.A.F.F. as well as my local 1664.
    Notice this is my CAREER not my hobby. Help a burned child. Get involed...not sure how just ask. Marshall
    www.fdnyengine6.org
    www.midatlanticburncamp.org

  14. #34
    Junior Member TILLERMAN-1664's Avatar
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    Let me try a different tactic here. There are alot of people from across the country reading written text and drawing conclusions that are emotionally based. Let me try explaining this way. As much as it looks like a career/volunteer thing. IT"S NOT!! It's a career/career thing. I was in Chicago when the resolution was passed. I was at the state level when the president of Local 36 was asked to be there. He copped out and sent someone in his place.

    Let me try and paint you a picture. CMC122, if you wouldn't mind with your help (for the sake of discussion). Where my shoes... you are a career fire fighter in Montgomery County and I am a career fire fighter in DC. We both belong to the IAFF. You have alot of pride and honor in the IAFF just as much as I'm sure you do in real life for the fine organization you belong to in PG county. Now, on my days off from working downtown, I come to the volunteer corporation you are "assigned" to as a career man. I am beligerant, rude, abnoxious. I use the toilet without flushing it, expecting you to clean it. I trash the day room, watch office and kitchen also expecting you to clean it. I bump you out of your riding assignment without telling you. We run calls, I expect you to pack the hose, clean the gear and get everything set up and ready for the next call as I walk out the door to go home. Do I have to deal with these things as a career person in DC? No! Why? Hmmmmm.....

    Now we both belong to the IAFF. I am supposed to have the same pride, honor and respect that you do for the IAFF. Now, after experiencing all of this I ask you two weeks later to stand beside me as a union "brother" and help me fight DC government, Federal government even Chief Few for better work practices, more money, whatever. What would you say to me? Personally, I hope you would tell me to "go fly a kite" after the way I treated you and your "brothers and sisters."

    Now folks, granted this isn't the exact case in every fire station in the DC/Metropolitan area. This is just one of many conflicts that exist. We don't care if you VOLUNTEER! But DON"T CARRY A CARD AND CLAIM TO BE MY BROTHER AND STAND ON THE SAME ISSUES WHEN YOU LEAVE WORK AND YOU TREAT ME AND MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS WITH BLATENT DISREPECT! PICK A SIDE... PERIOD! If you're going to volunteer, I respect that. Turn in your card and don't claim to be my brother. That's all this issue is about. If you have any information or have been mislead otherwise, then bring it to someone's attention so that it can be corrected.

    Marshall
    "VERY PROUD" Union member of the I.A.F.F. as well as my local 1664.
    Notice this is my CAREER not my hobby. Help a burned child. Get involed...not sure how just ask. Marshall
    www.fdnyengine6.org
    www.midatlanticburncamp.org

  15. #35
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    Here's the side I've picked:

    1) Recruit and appoint the best possible applicants, regardless of race, gender, or creed
    2) Train at the tasks expected of them to the highest possible standards
    3) Equip them with the best possible equipment to do the tasks they are assigned
    4) Hold them to the highest possible standards of conduct
    5) Organize and deploy them in such a manner to conduct the tasks they are assigned safely

    I don't see where a paycheck comes into play here.

    L1619 is not looking to increase their unit staffing or the number of firefighters attending at fires. They are looking to increase the number of L1619 members. To do this they are attempting to harass, and hopefully remove, IAFF members who volunteer in the county, as these members are often the leaders of volunteer companies. This started as personal retribution by a very few L1619 members against L36 members who tend to be abrasive.

    If i believed that my volunteering in PG adversely affected ANYONE, Union, non-union, career, or volunteer, i'd have left long ago. I might even leave if i thought that my volunteering in PG adversely affected anyone's livelihood...anyone familiar with PG's payscale, especially as compared to this area, knows that PG is at or near the tops. In fact, the only reason that they have such an attactive compensation package, is that there are relatively few career firefighters per capita. Every pay day, a career f/f in PG should thank the volunteers for allowing him to get such a nice check.

    L1619 members talk of fellow union member's "retarding the progress" of L1619. However, there are no "firefighter" issues that PG volunteers oppose...the volunteers are all for getting the best equipment, training, etc. The individual compensation of L1619 members is top-notch, in no small part due to the presence of a large volunteer force. The only thing the volunteers "retard" is a very large, terribly underfunded, all-career department. (but L1619 would get a larger $$$$$)

    One final point, at this moment, should there be a fire in my house...
    First due station: Wagon-pumper, 8 volunteers
    Second due station: Truck, 8 volunteers
    Third due station: Wagon-pumper, Truck, 20 volunteers
    Fourth due station: Engine only, 3 vol, 1 career
    Fifth due station: Engine only, 2 vol, 2 career

  16. #36
    Member SquadHog's Avatar
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    Fortunately for most of the career firefighters in this country Resolution 43 is not an issue, but it isnít really that difficult to figure out. When all is said and done, it amounts to an internal disciplinary matter within the International Association of Firefighters.

    Resolution 43 is not anti-volunteer, it is anti-hypocrite. It merely reiterates existing IAFF by-laws and specifically names volunteer organizations in Prince Georgeís County, Maryland as among the ďrival organizationsĒ which had already been prohibited for years...and it passed unanimously.

    It just says that it is incompatible with the mission and goals of the IAFF for it's members to volunteer in a jurisdiction where another IAFF Local is organized. Those individuals who are in violation must choose...union member or volunteer.

    None of the parties involved are being dismissed from their career jobs nor are they even being forced to stop volunteering...they just can't belong to the union and disregard it's by-laws. What is the problem with that? They freely chose to be members of the International. If they can't abide by the rules they've got to go...pretty simple, huh? If they can't decide where their loyalties are, flip a coin!
    Last edited by SquadHog; 02-09-2002 at 06:20 PM.
    "Go ugly early."

  17. #37
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    As I've stated, I don't believe that the organizations listed in Resolution 43 are in fact, "rival organizations".

    I've been trying to do an internet search to find a definition of rival organization...i believe for unions, it is usually another union attempting to represent (and recieve dues from) members of an existing union, or competing for the same employees.

    The only thing i've found though, is worth sharing:

    "Confronted by weak administrative structures, fragile economies, and in some cases dangerous sources of domestic opposition, political leaders sought to entrench themselves in power by using the machinery of state to suppress or coopt any rival organization-be it an opposition party, a trades union, or even a major corporation. Rather than acknowledging the weakness of their position, and accepting the limitations on their power which this imposed, they chose to up the stakes and went for broke" (Clapham 1996a:57).

  18. #38
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    Wink

    1664
    It's called CLOUT! I completely understand resolution 43. I completely understand the questionability of who is a brother/sister or not. (thanks again megan) But this basically comes down to an ethics issue almost.
    Being a member of a union involves so much more than your local, state or international associations. When your in a union you are a brother/sister to ALL unions. You ALL support each other be it a teacher or plumber or teamster. You don't drive around in non union manufactured cars, you don't shop at food lion, you support all unions. This is something that has been long forgotten in union leadership. That is clout, supporting ALL other unions.
    So now you have lines drawn between everyone organization and they are there own rivallry. I believe if clout were still in existence there wouldn't be this problem. No one would want to cross another family member.

    You are right in that people looking in on this do have a hard time understanding this situation. We are very unique departments with people who have to check thier EGO'S in at the door. That dosen't happen and probably never will. It is wrong in my personal opinion to treat a brother/sister wrong for any reason be it career or volunteer. And you are right this isn't a career vs. volunteer issue. But people only look at what they want to see and they see "Rival Organization". Automatically sets tempers.

    I could ramble on and I may have made absolutely no sense to anyone but if you really sit back and look at the whole picture everything is messed up!So I leave you with this...

    Ignorance is no excuse.

  19. #39
    Junior Member TILLERMAN-1664's Avatar
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    Default

    Originally posted by CMC122


    Ignorance is no excuse.
    "TURE VERY TRUE" well said
    "VERY PROUD" Union member of the I.A.F.F. as well as my local 1664.
    Notice this is my CAREER not my hobby. Help a burned child. Get involed...not sure how just ask. Marshall
    www.fdnyengine6.org
    www.midatlanticburncamp.org

  20. #40
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    Hehehe.

    This is an example of, quite simply, why there's no more fun place to volunteer than PG.

    And Tillerman 1664, I just can't resist: What the HECK do you tiller in OLNEY? The back of that quint?

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