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  1. #41
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    When a union fights for
    safety (you're safer with more staffing, career or vol)
    working conditions (hmmm. volunteer couches, tvs, internet)
    wages (the best in the region)
    I can get behind it.

    When a union fights merely to increase its' membership...
    that's when I stop being union proud, and start being American proud...

    #1 any volunteers who resign from the county will not be replaced with career staffing
    #2 while i support your right and need to run down the road with more than 3 personnel (which you should have fought for long ago)
    you cannot tell me exactly what effect that one additional or a dozen, or a hundred additional career firefighters would have on the likelihood of me dying in a fire or my house burning to the ground.

    Is it numbers? Is the county gonna staff each of the closest three stations to my house with 12 f/f s each?

    Is it training and performance? I can say, as a group, the career staff performs no better than the volunteers...and most of the newer career guys perform significantly worse.

    Someone said something about hypocracy earlier...
    ...hypocracy is claiming something is a safety issue, when it's really a money issue...
    ...I hope that the IAFF, who depends on the good will of the public for much of it's "clout", realizes what this can of worms is going to do to the publics perception of firefighters in general and the union specifically.


  2. #42
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    Post Resolution 43

    The resolution that Local 1619 of Prince George's County, Maryland only affects the volunteer stations in Prince George's County. The resolution does not prohibit any career firefighter from being a volunteer in any other county, such as Montgomery, Charles, St. Mary's, Anne Arundel, etc. So far nobody has told me why Local 1619 decided to have their resolution specifically state Prince George's.

    I don't think this was a good idea on the part of Local 1619. It forces a career firefighter who may work in DC, Arlington or Fairfax Virginia, etc., to make a choice. Why would a union in one jurisdiction attempt to force a career firefighter to make a choice? "Be a union man, or get out,Ē seems to be the sentiment. It sort of reminds me when my Father was a union steel worker and they were having problems with management. Management hired goons to intimidate the union workers and the goons said "Sign the contract or else."

    What would local 1619 have to say to the international if all the career people who volunteer in P.G. decided to turn in their union cards? Thatís about 200-300 union members. It doesn't strengthen a union it weakens it. If there is a budget crunch and since the fire department union is in a weakened state guess where the politicians are going to cut first. It happens every time in every location, the fire department is the first one to get the ax regardless if they are paid or volunteer.

    In any situation there will be bad apples on both sides. I think both sides forget one thing especially after 09/11/01 we are all brothers and sisters and when that alarm goes off death makes no distinction whether you are a career, volunteer, male or female firefighter. The only ones we can trust are each other.

    This post is my own opinion and does not represent any official statement of my department.

  3. #43
    Member DKelly's Avatar
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    Gee, let's see if we can figure out why these attitudes **** off union brothers. Let's say, just for fun, that we come set up shop right next to your place of business, be it plumbing, carpentry or lawyering, the place you make a living doing what you do, and start giving out the services you provide, only for free, because we need more of those services provided, and free is way better than paying for it. Soon people would flood our "free" service and you'd be down the road, and the hell with you, because the service you provided was valuable and the people couldn't live without it, and we're only better serving the peoples needs, because it's free now. Think you'd be ****ed off in short order? The union's main purpose is to protect it's members jobs, plain and simple. If you don't want to follow the rules, just say "no" and turn in your card.

  4. #44
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    If you're going to volunteer, I respect that. Turn in your card and don't claim to be my brother.
    When I first started reading these and other forums, one thing that struck me back then was what so many people have come to understand in the last few months- that being the brotherhood among firefighters. I always thought it was between ALL firefighters. But now I, John Q. Public, am being led to believe that there's only brotherhood when the parties involved all carry "cards." Silly me, I guess....

  5. #45
    Junior Member TILLERMAN-1664's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Grit


    Tillerman 1664, I just can't resist: What the HECK do you tiller in OLNEY? The back of that quint?
    Thats funny... LMAO
    "VERY PROUD" Union member of the I.A.F.F. as well as my local 1664.
    Notice this is my CAREER not my hobby. Help a burned child. Get involed...not sure how just ask. Marshall
    www.fdnyengine6.org
    www.midatlanticburncamp.org

  6. #46
    Forum Member thefyreman's Avatar
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    Smile

    TILLERMAN-1664, You have done a fine job of setting the record straight - the issues here are much deeper than seen from my perspective. It seems like a lot of grief could have been avoided if everyone acted professionally (just because they are volunteers doesn't mean they can't perform in a professional manner). I guess I was lucky to have served as a volunteer in PG at a station that taught us to do our jobs in a professional manner, and our station was one of the ones that got along well with the career staff (and, to the best of my knowledge, still does). Keep up the good work.
    - Remember our brothers in FDNY -

  7. #47
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    Default Get a grip

    I don't see what is so complicated here other than people who don't know where their bread is buttered and volunteers who take great joy in seeing such idiotic disputes among career people because of searing jealousy that they themselves can't get career jobs. Most volunteers that I have seen who don't like card carrying career firefighters are usually the ones who can't get the card carrying jobs themselves. You know, the bruised ego squad. And don't give me that standard emotional love of community garbage when it comes to volunteering. Sell that crap to some misguided civilian. Many people who volunteer in fire and EMS do it because frankly, THEY LOVE IT. It has less to do with love of community and more to do with thrills, filling egos, getting noticed, etc. Admit it people. Thats the fact. And it works the same with many career people as well, except it's more fun getting paid to have an adrenalan rush. This issue is ridiculous. If you are a full time employee of a fire dept. why would you come off duty and do it for free in your own dept.or in some other career firefighters dept.. Does a Teamster drive a truck for free when he or she is off. Does a steel worker stop in at the plant and make steel when off. Some of you people are real idiots. How many union plumbers would show up at another union construction job and sweat pipes for free. What I always got a kick out of was vollies who would show up and make life miserable for union firefighters and then go and be big union guys at their own jobs and file grievances and walk picket lines. Talk about hypocracy. The same applies to career people who would go vollie in another dept. that has career people. The fact that the IAFF does not want it's membership to volunteer is a no brainer. The IAFF knows that some of the membership are going to volunteer but officially it's discouraged. Does the Teamsters want people driving trucks for free. Does the Carpenters Union want it's members moonlighting with non union construction companies. What about the United Mine Workers. You think they want people digging coal for free or working extra at a non union mining company. Some of you really need a reality check. In concept, the IAFF is no different than any other labor union except there is no history of violence or corruption that many other unions went through. My own IAFF Local has members who volunteer on their days off. As long as it is not done in our dept. or where another IAFF local may exsist it's generally not an issue. Now that is not a big problem here because we are the only paid dept. in the county. We have a few volunteers left over here in the city but we have no problems. Everyone tends to get along fine. So when some of our members go home to their suburban communities and volunteer, no one says anything because no ones job is being disrupted. I can see the problem in the metro DC area due to so many agencies with IAFF locals but then people need to make a choice. Either you want a career job or you want to be a volunteer. One cannot always have their cake and eat it and a choice must be made. I volunteer with my suburban dept. but then we have no IAFF local or paid people here and I NEVER would ride the engine into the city where I work on a mutual aid call. The members of my volunteer company understand that and respect it. But then we don't have that idiotic paid/vollie rivalry here in my area and the suburban volunteer companies tend to get along well with the career dept. in the city. There are a few butt heads here and there on both sides but that is minimized. I suppose it really all comes down to common sense and maturity. PG used to be a respected dept. but now it is looked at as somewhat of a big joke. Fist fighting in stations and at fires, sabotage of personal equipment and vehicles etc. I have heard and read all the stories. Sad, really sad. It's a shame and a disgrace to the service. Oh, as for that retread who suggested that PG get the Teamsters in to replace the IAFF. Just try the volunteer thing with a Teamster union. Just once. What a clueless fool.
    Last edited by Deputynick; 02-10-2002 at 06:59 PM.

  8. #48
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    Got to ask this. It seems to be implied that these off duty FF's are replacing career FF's like if 1 calls in sick. Thus saving the OT. But if I am a vol. w/ say E2, but work at E10 on the other side of the county, do I respond from say home for calls on my day off or are we talking about pulling vol. duty where I have to be at the station during a designated time period? Trying to understand the way things work has been different. Being from another state means a whole different set of rules. Its like the EMT and Paramedic thing. In my state I can do all this but in your state I can change the bandaid and take a pulse. I guess I'm like John Q Public, but I live 500 miles away.

  9. #49
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    thanks 1664!

    CollegeBuff all families feud.

    In PG volunteers do NOT reduce overtime. They do NOT fill in when a career person calls out. If a career slot is empty a career person fills it. The problem is these people coming into the house and causing grief. Telling another brother they can't come into the dayroom, can only stay in a certain part of a house, butting heads on calls because L36 does it this way or PG does it that way. It's all juvenile.

  10. #50
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    Originally posted by D Kelly
    Gee, let's see if we can figure out why these attitudes **** off union brothers. Let's say, just for fun, that we come set up shop right next to your place of business, be it plumbing, carpentry or lawyering, the place you make a living doing what you do, and start giving out the services you provide, only for free, because we need more of those services provided, and free is way better than paying for it. Soon people would flood our "free" service and you'd be down the road, and the hell with you, because the service you provided was valuable and the people couldn't live without it, and we're only better serving the peoples needs, because it's free now. Think you'd be ****ed off in short order? The union's main purpose is to protect it's members jobs, plain and simple. If you don't want to follow the rules, just say "no" and turn in your card.
    I'm not a career fire fighter, I am a volunteer and truly proud of it. For the most part I do have a good relationship with the career fire fighters at my station.

    I began asking them if they knew of resolution 43 some did some did not. Does the union help them? Yes and no. I don't know all the politics of Local 1619 but I think sometimes the executive board is sometimes out of touch with the rank and file. If Local 1619 would like to have more career personnel there are more ways to obtain their goal then using resolution 43 against the volunteers. In the end all parties, both career and volunteer are losers with resolution 43.

  11. #51
    Junior Member Bellat25's Avatar
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    Default Reponse to Fitguy51

    Here in the great county of Montgomery members of L36 have directly contributed to the loss of L1664 positions. I belive the offical budget cruncher numbers last year was 8.4 man years removed. This was done by one of the local volunteer fire dept's telling the county goverment that they would have a volunteer crew for staffing at nights and weekends at one of the firehouses. This was initiated by the volunteer dept and it also requested that the career personal be removed from said station. There are several of my "brothers" from L36 who are making up this staffing and enabling the volunteer dept to operate without L1664 members.
    See were this might cause a bit of disention?
    I have to agree this Deptynick, Just try this sorta thing with the teamsters union and see how far these actions would get you. I'm sure being kicked out of the union would only be a start.

    Check the bottom of your IAFF sticker which is in your window.
    AFL-CIO
    You took the oath now read the bylaws

  12. #52
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    Default My 2 Cents

    As I am one of the "scabs" directly affected by this resolution, I thought I would add my two cents.

    First, I was a volunteer in PG before I was hired by DC and therefore my loyalties lie with my volunteer company because I will not forget where I came from. Second, I am not taking anything away from the career people that work at my station (Some of the best people I have ever known.) In fact I am giving them the best possible work environment they could possibly imagine. In DC we have a house fund that we pay into each month. This fund pays for everything from shoe polish to cable TV to furniture to spices in the kitchen. The career guys in PG don't have to worry about that because the volunteers pay for all of it.

    But then this isn't about career vs. Volunteer is it. Fine. I say to the IAFF...KICK ME OUT!! I will keep my extra $200 a year in dues and you won't have to kill that extra tree for sending me the newsletter every month. Now, I know that the IAFF has every right to drop me from the rolls, because they are a private organization and laws governing these types of groups contain a lot of latitude (e.g. the boys scouts banning homosexuals) but the IAFF will never do so. I know this because they are driven by the same motives that L1619 are. They want to have large membership base to collect dues from and have numbers to lobby with. If the union kicked out every paid FF that volunteered, they would loose a lot of money and numerical clout with congress.
    So come and get me, I dare you. I don't care, I am not going to loose my job or benefits. The only reason that I will fight this is because this issue will affect others that are not in a collective barging department and unfortunately this a local issue that is going national. For those guys I will stand up with the hundreds of others and say "Hey this is Crap."
    After all the President just asked every American to volunteer 4,000 hours of there time over their life time. I can best serve my country by doing something I already know how to do.
    So How will this "resolution" look to the general public and to the congress men and women that you are trying to lobby? Think about it, then proceed at your own peril.

  13. #53
    Senior Member Smoke286's Avatar
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    I find it interesting that the DC local doesn't seem to be supporting this move. Perhaps there is something more to it. I know that in our jurisdiction our local doesn't bother anyone who wants to volunteer as long as it is not directly in the region served by our Dept.

  14. #54
    Forum Member DrInferno's Avatar
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    Smoke 286: Brother it must be different in the U.S. part of our collective agreement states that all employees in the supression divison will be part of the Local in GOOD STANDING. So if they were to kick me out of the union for whatever reason I have NO JOB. It's alot like what you were inquiring about in Hamilton Ont.(I replied to your post on that topic if you haven't read it)

  15. #55
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    You don't have to be a member of L36 to work in DC, but they (the local, not the IAFF) still get part of your dues.

    Would a trade union prohibit building houses for charity, or volunteering to fix them after a disaster?

    Did the UAW bitch about GM workers VOLUNTEERING to help rebuild FDNY's fleet?

    Has the presence of volunteers in PG county done anything but HELP L1619's salary scale?

    Would my discontinuing to volunteer do anything but exascerbate existing staffing problems? Would this affect firefighter safety?

    Why would I continue to volunteer when I've got a paid job? Why does anyone do what they do? They like it.

    The only "bad" thing volunteers do to L1619 is make it hard to justify a fully career force. As far as individual L1619 members though, they have a steady job, great pay, great schedule (40-42h a week), usually pretty good apparatus, equipment, and station.

  16. #56
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    A famous man once said "I have a dream"I also have a dream.Where one day we will all get along and act like we should.Like brothers in arms that we all are no matter if union or not.To the gentleman that said turn in your card and dont call me brother,no problem you never were my brother.Its attitudes like this that **** me off.You do as we say or else! I love that tactic of all unions(not just this case but many others)Did anyone notice the vollies at ground zero working?How about the volly company from the Bronx that was destroyed?How about an FDNY member being carried to his final rest by his volunteer company?Does it F%$#ing matter what we do in our private time you big brother wannnabes?????????Get over it for the love of Pete!Or just keep going on about "Whaaa they ******ed in my cornflakes so I am taking my ball and going home"And before any union guys bash that line,It goes to both sides!!! Volly and career need to work as a team(Oh yeah like that will ever happen)Sorry wishful thinking on my part.But to those that are truly brothers that work both sides to HELP THE COMMUNITY.Hats off to you guys.We do this to help our neighbors not to say "woooo hoooo look at me I am a firefighter with tons of bennies and a cool work schedule"If that is what you do then make room for some real firefighters that will do the job cause they know what it is about.Helping others not bashing everyone in sight.Nuff said about that.

  17. #57
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    Default Huh?

    First, I was a volunteer in PG before I was hired by DC and therefore my loyalties lie with my volunteer company because I will not forget where I came from.
    So using your logic, you would agree that if a person came from Afghanistan to become a US citizen, its okay if his loyalty remains in Afghanistan. That is comforting.




    that's when I stop being union proud, and start being American proud
    So you think that Unions are not American enough DCFF/EMT? Please tell me that is not your thought pattern. I am sure it is not so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

    i believe for unions, it is usually another union attempting to represent (and recieve dues from) members of an existing union, or competing for the same employees.
    You believe, but have no proof, correct?

    One final point, at this moment, should there be a fire in my house...
    You would rush home from DC, dash in, and smother the fire with your union card. We get the picture


    In the words of the great South Central philosopher, Rodneyius Kingus, "Can't we all just get along"?

  18. #58
    Member Chopper Lover's Avatar
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    Angry Big Brother?

    Originally posted by truckie_ladderco_147
    Does it F%$#ing matter what we do in our private time you big brother wannnabes??????????
    Most Union Brothers don't care what anyone does in their private time. Personally, if someone wants to be drunk, smoke dope, race motorcycles, rob banks, etc., it does not matter to me... UNTIL their private time endangers me, my family, my safety or my livelihood.

    The jurisdiction I work in borders PG County and we also have problems with "brothers" from Local 36 (Washington, DC). They are costing us jobs. As "Bellat25" stated we lost 14 fire fighter positions so that a couple of our "brothers" from Local 36 could fill in the voids as volunteer staffing. Sure sounds like they are looking out for their "brother's", huh? In case you don't understand, in our situation it is not about allowing someone to have a "hobby" in their private time. It is about 14 people that no longer have a job in order to feed their families.

    Is it "big brother" when we are trying to protect our jobs and our families? I DON'T THINK SO! Maybe you should think about that and become more educated on the subject at hand before you start spouting off about something you obviously know nothing about.
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-11-2002 at 05:45 PM.

  19. #59
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    Default

    Originally posted by Smoke286
    I find it interesting that the DC local doesn't seem to be supporting this move. Perhaps there is something more to it. I know that in our jurisdiction our local doesn't bother anyone who wants to volunteer as long as it is not directly in the region served by our Dept.
    DC Local 36 does not appear to have a problem with it because they have no volunteers interfering with their livelihood. They are a fully career department.

    As you may know, a couple of years ago the International passed a by-law that basically states (and I paraphrase) "a Union Member cannot volunteer in a jurisdiction where fellow IAFF members are employed".

    The apparent "official" stance of the Washington, DC Local 36 has been they don't care if they are affecting the jobs of fellow union "brothers". The Locals that surround Washington, DC all met at the International Office to discuss the issue of Local 36 (DC Firefighters) and their negative affects on the neighboring career Fire Fighters. This meeting included the Maryland counties of Montgomery, Prince George and Howard and also Fairfax, Virginia. DC's Local failed to respond to their invitation to attend. All these jurisdictions have issues with the Union Members of Washington DC's Local 36 volunteering in their jurisdictions. It is MUCH bigger than PG County. I know for a fact that members of Local 36 have been brought up on charges for volunteering in Montgomery County, which is a violation of the IAFF's by-laws.

    Is PG's Local wrong for their proposition? No, that is their job.

  20. #60
    Forum Member DaFAO's Avatar
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    Box Alarm

    >So using your logic, you would agree that if a person came from >Afghanistan to become a US citizen, its okay if his loyalty remains >in Afghanistan. That is comforting.

    How comforting that ignorants like you generalize all people from Afghanistan, with your implication that they are all terrorists. Good thing you dont have your finger on the button.

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