Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 15 FirstFirst 123456714 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 282
  1. #61
    MembersZone Subscriber swrr88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Posts
    79

    Default

    Chopper Lover said,"...It is about 14 people that no longer have a job in order to feed their families..."

    Let's get something clear.

    Did 14 firefighters get fired OR were 14 positions either not created or not refilled after someone left them? There is a big difference between those.

    I don't believe anyone has been laid off by vollies there.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson


  2. #62
    MembersZone Subscriber swrr88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Posts
    79

    Default

    I work for a fully career department that is union (still right to work state). We have a lot of employees volunteering in their home communities. There isn't any fighting about it here because they aren't taking a paid job from someone...there wasn't one there to start with.


    I wonder what PGFD or other counties there would look like without the vollies.

    As the funds quickly get taken up by personnel and salaries I bet they will miss somethings.

    My department and other full departments like DCFD are plagued with old equipment, old stations, lack of extras. The PG stations and equipment are pretty nice. A lot of things are paid for by the vollies or possible because of the vollies. Their nice schedule and pay are because of the vollies. Would they give up future pay raises or higher taxes for their families to completely staff the county?
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  3. #63
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    40

    Default

    Important things that a firefighter should fight for, union or non-union, volunteer or career:

    Safe Equipment
    Good Training
    Good minimum staffing of apparatus
    Good response times (# of companies per area)
    Good compensation (not always monetarily)
    Good schedule (no split shifts, etc.)
    Fair treatment by city/dept management

    None of these are compromised by volunteers

    Now, a union also trys to increase it's membership...I agree with this when it is in order to meet minimum staffing (4,5,or 6 according to NFPA 1710) or to place companies in service for bettered response times (4 or 8 minutes, NFPA 1710)

    But to increase its membership, merely to have more members, is a waste of tax dollars. I understand that this is one of the missions of a union, but I think that if a union is able to convince the taxpayers that more should be spent on the fire department, I'd increase the amount of training, replace equipment, refurbish firehouses, hire better employees, get better pay, etc.

    Prince George's County's tax rate is already maxed out, by state or local law, I'm not sure which. Revenue is not going to increase. The public cares much, much more about Public Schools, Police Protection, Roads, etc. than the Fire Department. The PGFD's slice of the pie is not going to increase. The number of FTE's assigned to the FD is not going to increase by much either. Removing 150+ active volunteers is a threat to the safety of the existing firefighters (career and volunteer) as well as the citizens of PG county.

    Resolution 43 is likely to cause a net loss of IAFF members if the issue is pushed.

  4. #64
    MembersZone Subscriber swrr88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Posts
    79

    Default

    Good point DCFF.

    One thing I wonder if the PG local has considered is the PR hit it could take with this fight.

    How will the public take the union trying to get rid of a good portion of THEIR fire protection solely to create jobs for more members? Especially when its taken into account that the people they are trying to get rid of are experienced firefighters from career departments. In fact, they would not only be decreasing the number of staff but making it less qualified.

    Does the local think that regular joe on the streets gives a crap about their union fight? NO! They care about people showing up when they call, how much their insurance cost, and how much taxes they have to pay.

    You go out and tell them that you are going to force people to quit so you can raise their taxes to satisfy your own goals and you are going to take a hit for that one.

    You have locals at odds with each other. You have staff at stations at odds with each other. You have a public that is trying to figure out what the big deal is....doesn't seem worth it to me.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  5. #65
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default

    How comforting that ignorants like you generalize all people from Afghanistan, with your implication that they are all terrorists. Good thing you dont have your finger on the button.

    I did not mean to offend anyone with the remark. I was drawing an analogy. However I do take offense at being called ignorant. I may be slow but not ignorant. Stay safe Truro!

  6. #66
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Bowie, MD
    Posts
    6

    Default

    The sad thing is that it has gone to the papers and basically nothing has happened. As DCFF said PG citizens are more concerned with other things right now. Nothing big goes on with the FD publically unless it directly affected a taxpayer and they carry on with it.

    (This somehow went to another post last time I tried so here goes again)
    If 1619 is so concerned and doing their job as earlier posted then why are only a few of 36's members who vollie in PG put on the charge and not all???? HOw do you go about picking and choosing who you want to charge and leave a large number of people off? Then many of the people on the list weren't even 36's members. They are EMS people who belong to a totally different union.

    Many of you may have already seen this web site but just incase check out The Watch Desk.com

  7. #67
    Member Chopper Lover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Montgomery County, Maryland Local 1664
    Posts
    72

    Default

    Originally posted by swr88


    Did 14 firefighters get fired OR were 14 positions either not created or not refilled after someone left them? There is a big difference between those.

    I don't believe anyone has been laid off by vollies there.
    You are correct. Because we have a UNION that protects us no one was laid off because of this action. Is there a difference? Yes, but not as "big" as you think.

    We are already understaffed in our county because the "volunteers" keep tell the county council they will "make up the extra staffing" yet they never do. Some units in our county fail to respond at rates greater than 70%, yet they are not replaced until they have not checked on the air for over 3 minutes. WE ONLY DEPEND on those units and their staffing to get out so we have some help on the calls. I guess it is OK if they don't get out, at least we did... So someone is there to do something, even if it is one person doing the job of 2 or 3. (No safety issue there, huh?)

    {Sorry for the tangent, I get side tracked from time to time...}

    Back to the question at hand...

    Here is the "big picture". Those are 14 positions that people who are desperately hoping to be hired to fill won't get. It has reduced upward mobility because the promotions of positions of "rank" have been eliminated (4 positions of rank eliminated). These things affect my career and the career of others. Worst of all, the station still fails to respond!

    The bottom line is this.

    "Brother" career fire fighters from Washington DC's Local 36 are helping fill those 14 abolished positions lost to fulfill their "hobby".

  8. #68
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    40

    Default

    Chopper Lover, which jurisdiction is this? I was under the impression that all of the career departments in the WDC Metro Area were growing and adding positions almost every year.

    As for your union keeping those people from getting a pink slip, i doubt it, most places handle this sort of thing through attrition, regardless of union representation.

    If other companies are failing to respond, document it. Document the number of times responses fail to meet NFPA 1710 standards. Arrange it by voting area, census tract, representative district, whatever.

  9. #69
    Member DKelly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Seattle,Wa. USA
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Just as a side issue here, I did a little research at the U.S. Census Bureau and found PG County to be one of the top in the nation in per capita income, retail sales, education and "disposable" income, and also in per capita money spent on retail sales. The people of this county can certainly afford to pay for carrer firefighters, and instead are getting experienced career firefighters from other areas for free. Such a deal!! We aren't talking about an area with a high level of poverty or a miniscule tax base like many places in this country that would be devastated by a lack of volunteer personel. So,following this sharp logic, low income inner D.C. should have a fully paid career dept., and relatively wealthy PG county can't get by without you volunteering against union by-laws. Makes sense to me.

  10. #70
    Member Chopper Lover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Montgomery County, Maryland Local 1664
    Posts
    72

    Arrow Response to DCFF

    First:

    The jurisdiction in Montgomery County, Md. For those that don't know we are bordering just west of Prince George's and North of Washington D.C.

    Second:

    The Union has a lot to do with protecting our jobs. Our budget is proposing down staffing more stations for the upcoming fiscal year and closing one Engine Company a day to cut down "expenses". Sound familiar to you? Pink slips are not going out and yes, we are in a hiring phase, but that is only because we are projected to lose about 150 personnel over the next 2 years to retirement. Are we actually growing, not that I have been able to find. We may very well end up with less personnel in the end with a call load that is up about 25%. Is that "attrition"? Sure, in a way I suppose it is. However the loss of those 14 positions are not helping things at all and is detrimental to my safety and career. But it is OK... The volunteers will "pick up the slack" with some help from a few of our "Brothers" from Local 36 filling in those gaps. (Please see third response in this post for further info on that).

    Third:
    The documentation of response failures is there. Year after year the statistics are presented to the county council by those looking for more staffing, the volunteers follow up by stating "we have a new stand by program in place, give us a chance". The failures still continue.

    DCFF:

    Your Local, Local 36, is a big problem for the "Union Brothers" here in Montgomery County, and apparently in PG also. PG's Local and other locals are enforcing the by-laws of the International and placing charges against members that violate those by-laws. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want to volunteer, by all means volunteer and turn in your union card. If you want to be a union member, be a union member. The by-laws say you can't do both.

    All that is required is that you pick a side of the fence and get on it.

    (By the way, this is not meant as a personal attack. I would be willing to bet that if you worked for a jurisdiction that had volunteers interfering with your livelihood and safety would better understand opinions like mine. Please try to take that into consideration.)
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-12-2002 at 02:38 PM.

  11. #71
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    retired to the US Capitol Aug 26, 1814
    Posts
    325

    Default

    D. Kelly: you sure you weren't reading about fashionable Montgomery County? Come see the PG ghettos for yourself. No they're not tenement ghettos, they are your modern garden apartment ghettos. Whole abandoned neighborhoods, not just abandoned bldgs here & there. Where humans still live, you see things like crack mamas chopping off the head of their live babies [I'm not making this stuff up] means ghetto to me. Hell, we even had a firefighter beat to death with a board in one of our lovely modern ghettos.

    This isn't all of PG, just setting the record straight on your overall comments............

  12. #72
    Member DKelly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Seattle,Wa. USA
    Posts
    78

    Default

    Grit, I don't doubt it, I'm just quoting facts stated in the U.S. census. If they're wrong, my apologies, if they're right, and those conditions exist, then the taxpayers money is going where? I don't work in Beverly Hills either, but we get by with very few volunteers in most of the urban/suburban areas, and our tax base isn't any bigger than yours. I have no problem at all with volunteers, unless they belong to the IAFF and are volunteering after being asked by the local members of that dept. to please stop. If that doesn't apply to you, then no offense intended.

  13. #73
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Warminster, PA
    Posts
    576

    Default

    Are volunteers actually taking away union jobs? That's the only question that matters, because unless the answer is a resounding "yes", then this resolution is obviously a ridiculous and unnecessary infringement of members' rights.

    I don't know about you, but when I go home I don't let any employment-related organization with which I may be associated tell me what I can do off the clock.
    Last edited by BucksEng91; 02-12-2002 at 05:09 PM.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  14. #74
    Senior Member Smoke286's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    St John's, Newfoundland , Canada
    Posts
    310

    Default

    So Chopper, yours is the local in the jurisdiction in question?
    Do you know if there are any members of your local that volunteer in PG county? really, I have no axe to grind, just wondering if the problem is only with the DC local. My point was I find it strange that the DC local is not supporting yours in this.
    Dr Inferno the same applys to our job, if your not in the local, oyur out of a job. But the local does not insist that ppl who volunteer outside of the region leave their volunteer depts. I didn't say they approve of it, just that they dont actively lobby to make vounteers quit.

  15. #75
    Member Chopper Lover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Montgomery County, Maryland Local 1664
    Posts
    72

    Default Bucks...

    I think D. Kelly was trying to explain that it is hard to make a living if your competition is providing your service for free. His example may not have been the best, but he got the point across rather well. I have to point out that your theory of "The union wants to increase its funding base, plain and simple." is off a bit.

    In your example, the tax base does not appear to be there for immediate increase and therefore no new positions will be created for new union members to be drawn from. Therefore, there will be no increase in the unions funding base anytime soon. This is only smoke to provide cover for the real issue...

    The real issue is "plain and simple" as you say.

    The issue is this:
    The IAFF has a by-law (rules) that state a member cannot volunteer in a firehouse that has IAFF members working there. All PG County's Local is doing is bringing members of another local on charges for violations of that by-law. All that is being asked is to follow the rules or get out. Those people will have to make a choice. Either be in the Brotherhood of the IAFF or be a volunteer.

  16. #76
    Member Chopper Lover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Montgomery County, Maryland Local 1664
    Posts
    72

    Default

    Originally posted by Smoke286
    So Chopper, yours is the local in the jurisdiction in question?
    Do you know if there are any members of your local that volunteer in PG county? My point was I find it strange that the DC local is not supporting yours in this.
    Smoke,

    Thanks for asking.... My jurisdiction borders both PG and Washington, DC. We also are surprised that the DC Local is not being supportive of this. It makes me wonder why they are still in the International.

    We do have members of our local that volunteer in PG. Here is how it works...

    When a member from another Local takes "issue" with a member from our Local volunteering in their station, they go to their union rep and a letter of charges are sent to our Locals President. When our local receives these letters notification of charges are sent to our Local member advising them they have to make a choice, their volunteer fire house, or their local. They must then respond back within a certain time frame (which I don't know) and correct the problem. Either they quit volunteering or resign, or are revoked, from the union.

  17. #77
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    6

    Talking Union Yes

    It seems that quite a few members of DCFD, specifically, have a problem with their union telling them they should stop volunteering in PG county and other counties which have active locals. Why is this being perceived as a personal attack by the Union on their members? Its seems, this is an outlook shared only by members of DC L36. My response to their attitude is, it must be nice to got to work everyday and ride apparatus which is appropriately staffed with an adequate number of qualified people to perform their jobs safely and efficiently. Unfortunately in the counties that our L36 brothers are being asked to resign from, this is not the case. Everyday in my department apparatus responds severely understaffed. Why, because the difference between minimum staffing and desired staffing is SUPPOSED to be made up by volunteers. DOESN’T HAPPEN. Where are these volunteers who care soooo much about their community? What many of the L36 members who currently volunteer in PG county fail to mention is that few of them still reside in the neighborhoods that they volunteer in. These people don’t care about service to their community. They are glory hounds. You want to quite the union go ahead. I don’t want you in MY union. You want to choose your volunteer department, go ahead, but ask yourself why did you become a career firefighter to begin with. If your volunteer department is soo great, why did you strive to do anything else than work your minimum wage job and live at your local FD? Those of you who believe this is simply a “typical IAFF tactic” to “increase membership”, I have to say you are shortsighted individuals who obviously have no concept of how a union operates. The union is a bargaining tool, whose membership affords it the leverage to bargain for better wages, conditions and benefits for its members. I have the same IAFF sticker in my truck as you do. When my Local wins so does yours and vice versa. The selfishness of the L36 members is increasingly evident in their resistance to gracefully back away from their volunteer departments. If they are so dedicated to volunteerism, why not spend their off duty hours in some rural departments to help staff apparatus in areas with no career staffing? If volunteer firefighters are the key to everyone’s staffing issues, as those who volunteer in PG County would have you believe why are there no volunteers in DC, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Detroit……? Because they are unreliable, they come and they go as the please, follow the rules as the want and when convenient. They don’t care about service to the community, they care about how fast the can drive through an intersection or who can melt their helmet the most. Is this the type of individual you want responding to your neighborhood? This is what L1619 is trying to accomplish, a more professional department with adequate, guaranteed staffing. They are striving to carry on the same mission the IAFF started in 1918 – better, safer conditions for everyone.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  18. #78
    MembersZone Subscriber swrr88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Posts
    79

    Default

    You know guys I understand that you are frustrated with the county's career design, but I have to say again that this is not the way to go about it.


    You are basically putting union "brothers" against other "brothers". Its obvious that the DC local isn't going to support your actions. In fact, it seems a lot would rather give up their cards than quit. The national offices don't seem too eager to jump into the fight. There hasn't been any comments from them. They don't even have anything about it on their site. Why? Its a no win situation.

    What are you going to accomplish? There will be a public backlash if the volunteers come out and say that stations are unmanned because of you. Don't spit out numbers about how they are already unmanned because the public won't care. They will see you as the bad guys.

    I am originally from Virginia and most of my family lives in your area. Volunteering there is different than in most of the country. Its a powerful force with a long tradition. They raise unbelievable amounts of money and have a lot of political pull. If I remember correct a Montgomery County squad (Bethesda-Chevy Chase) had a former President make an appearance at their anniversary.

    This is going to cause fighting within an obviously already divided department. Its going to cause fighting within the union, and if pushed through is going to just cause members to quit.

    These are mostly right to work states. If members think that their locals are fighting a fight they don't agree with and friends backing out they may join them. Then all of us lose. How you think politicians see this mess? How powerful is a union that is fighting itself?

    Is kicking out these union members going to improve your position? I doubt it. Is it going to hurt your image? probably.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  19. #79
    Forum Member BucksEng91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Warminster, PA
    Posts
    576

    Default Re: Bucks...

    Originally posted by Chopper Lover
    I think D. Kelly was trying to explain that it is hard to make a living if your competition is providing your service for free. His example may not have been the best, but he got the point across rather well. I have to point out that your theory of "The union wants to increase its funding base, plain and simple." is off a bit.

    In your example, the tax base does not appear to be there for immediate increase and therefore no new positions will be created for new union members to be drawn from. Therefore, there will be no increase in the unions funding base anytime soon. This is only smoke to provide cover for the real issue...

    The real issue is "plain and simple" as you say.

    The issue is this:
    The IAFF has a by-law (rules) that state a member cannot volunteer in a firehouse that has IAFF members working there. All PG County's Local is doing is bringing members of another local on charges for violations of that by-law. All that is being asked is to follow the rules or get out. Those people will have to make a choice. Either be in the Brotherhood of the IAFF or be a volunteer.
    I heavily edited the post that you made reference to...sorry! I understand D Kelly's analogy, but it doesn't apply here.

    I'll say it again...If there is no good reason for hammering home this particular by-law beyond breaking balls (in other words, it is not concretely saving jobs or ensuring hours to union people), then it's wrong.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

  20. #80
    Member Chopper Lover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Montgomery County, Maryland Local 1664
    Posts
    72

    Default

    SWR...
    Just so you know, the International is involved in this issue. As a matter of fact, it is an International by-law that every Local is supposed to follow, not one proposed by each individual local.

    As for public backlash and how it pertains to the fire service, it has been my experience that any back lash of the public lasts only weeks and they move on to bigger and better things. They don't really care about the fire service, especially once they are educated to the facts of an issue, not propaganda.

    Bucks...
    (It's OK that you edited my post for size, no apology is needed.)
    As you do not appear to be in the career fire service or a member of the IAFF I don't expect you to fully understand the situation. The situation is as simple as I stated and you quoted. There are rules they agree to follow, and they are upset because they are being called to the carpet for not following them.

    Being a transportation consultant I think you can understand this analogy: If someone is doing 85 mph in a 65 mph zone and a Trooper cites them, who is at fault, the Driver or the Trooper? If we relate that scenario to the PG County issue and equate the driver/Local 36 members and the Trooper/PG County Members, the Trooper (PG County) is at fault. It does not matter that the driver (DC Local) was breaking the rules, what matters is since the driver (DC Local) thinks the speed limit is silly they should not be held accountable. I am sorry, I don't buy that. If I am speeding 20 over and I get pulled over I know I am wrong. Shame on me!

    To no one specific:
    I am amazed that you are siding with a particular group of people (Local 36 members) that are breaking rules that they have sworn under oath to abide by. I am even more amazed that after I support the reason for this issue with specific examples of how it is negatively affecting the livelihood of people they call "Brothers" that you still take their side. They chose to join a Union and swore under oath to abide by that unions by-laws. If they don't like the rules, they can feel free to leave, we don't want them or need them. They are part of the problem, not the solution.

    I think you guys should read Eng211ine's post again. He does an excellent job with setting the record straight on how it really is.

    As I look over what I have written above, I have to wonder "why?". Is it because you guys are from different areas and have not had to deal with this type of combined system? Is it because you feel that even though there are rules that each member agrees to abide they should not be held accountable when they violate that rule? What is it? Help me out here because I don't get it.

    Stay Safe!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts