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  1. #176
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    Why doesn't the DC Fire and EMS Dept. Just go to a 56 hour work week. They could afford to pay better wages, have better staffing, maybe add more companies. The members of Local 36 that vol. in PG wouldn't have to leave DC to get an extra 14 hours in the firehouse, and they wouldn't be hurting the brothers in another local.
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  2. #177
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    Originally posted by DCFF
    In Prince George's county, the size of the pie is fixed...it can not legally get ANY bigger.
    This would be a good time for you to do a little background on how a few years back PG County had a referendum that placed a cap on how much money they can increase the taxes each year. I believe it is 7%. Is this still true? Is the percentage correct? Yes, it does tie the hands of the politicians to a degree, but you can rest assured they find ways to generate revenue. Generated revenue allows the next quote to take place.

    Originally posted by DCFF
    PG L1619 has done a good job of negotiating good salaries and benefits. Their job has been made easier, b/c of the county's ability to pay for it....they are paying for a relatively small number of career firefighters per capita. When L1664, L36, or the locals from AA, FX, Arl, Etc. go to the bargaining table, they can then say look---The average salary in the region is ........ Volunteers may not sit at the bargaining table, but their presence is felt.
    You know, you are correct in this statement. As each jurisdiction progresses forward, the surrounding jurisdictions get to reap the rewards. Montgomery County has a DROP Program for soon to retire employees. The money defered to the DROP plan gains 8% interest and is guaranteed by the County. Everyone around us will be able to say "Look what Montgomery County has" and increase their potential of receiving it also. That is how it works. That has nothing to do with the volunteers, that has to do with excellent negotiation skills by the Local's Bargaining Team. I wish to take exception with your last sentence in that quote. I think you are trying to imply that the volunteer "presence" is a good thing. I would venture to say it is the opposite. Many volunteers in places of power consider the Paid Staff a direct threat to the volunteer system. No need to go into detail on this. Everyone knows it to be true. They also know how the career/volunteer issues work "both ways".

    Originally posted by DCFF
    The higher salaries in PG county (thanks in part to the presence of a significant volunteer corps) then drive up the salaries of the region (including yours and mine), which then drive up the salaries in the country.

    THANK YOU PG VOLUNTEERS!
    You really don't have a clue, do you? All those things are determined at a level SO MUCH HIGHER in the political food chain than most volunteers can ever dream of getting. Have you ever had anything to do with contract negotiations? I would venture to say you have not from the comments you have made in past posts. Maybe you should consider being on Local 36's negotiating team. I think the eye opening you get will really enlighten you. That is if you even put forth any effort into your local at all...

    Have you ever even been to a Local 36 meeting?

    Originally posted by DCFF
    I like menages a trois. I just wondering who's getting f-ed? The volunteers? Not by me. L1619? nope, they're getting better staffing, salaries, and schedule.
    Someone in Local 1619 must think you are, otherwise you would not have been brought up on charges of violating IAFF by-laws... OOPS, I forgot, you don't want to talk about that. Why add a fact into your excuses for why you are in this position to begin with?
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    Truck Skipper - I may be wrong but these DC guys are not being paid cause they are volunteer members in PG.

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    Originally posted by Fitguy51
    Truck Skipper - I may be wrong but these DC guys are not being paid cause they are volunteer members in PG.
    Washington, DC workers the Fire Fighters on a 24/72 schedule which equates to a 42 hour work week. For those unfamiliar with the FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) a government employee can be worked up to 56 (I thought it was 53 but really don't remember) hours a week before they are compensated with OT. (Actual work hours and Over Time hours are negotiated in many cases.)

    Truck Skipper is pointing out that DC could always increase the work hours of their Fire Fighters from 42 to 56 hours giving them an extra 14 hours of "Fire House" time in DC. Then maybe they won't feel the need to go into their Volunteer, IAFF Staffed, fire houses and do it for free. That would prevent them from violating IAFF by-laws like they are doing now. OOPS... Shame on me, I brought that silly fact up again, didn't I????



    Sorry about all the edits. I am tired and the first couple versions of this post didn't even make sense to me!
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-16-2002 at 11:31 PM.
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  5. #180
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    But if he is still a member he will still have to do what is needed to retain his membership. He being a DC FF etc.

  6. #181
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    Originally posted by Fitguy51
    But if he is still a member he will still have to do what is needed to retain his membership. He being a DC FF etc.
    OK... I think I am confused.

    First I think Truck Skipper was tossing out some hypothetical sarcasm in his post.

    Do you mean retain his membership as a Volunteer?
    He can do that if he chooses to.

    Do you mean retain his membership as an IAFF Member?
    He can do that if he chooses to also.

    Can he do both?
    No, that is a direct violation of IAFF By-laws. He, along with other Local 36 members have apparently been brought up on charges for those violations. Someone inquired about the situation and that is how this entire message board thread was started.

    I hope that adequately answers your question.
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  7. #182
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    Bottom Line ! If a group of brother firefighters from another local ask for your help and you don't help them, than shame on you. Especially if all they are asking you to do is stay home.
    DKK
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  8. #183
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    Originally posted by Truck Skipper
    Bottom Line ! If a group of brother firefighters from another local ask for your help and you don't help them, than shame on you. Especially if all they are asking you to do is stay home.
    AMEN BROTHER!!!

    Looks like we are up to 14 LOYAL IAFF MEMBERS!
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  9. #184
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    Wake up you dumb SOB's. The union is here to support you. If you choose to volunteer, what support does the union owe you? Oh, I get paid in DC to be a pro, but I volunteeer in PG. How can you rectify this? I am a pro in Price Hill Cincinnati and I don't volunteer. I live here (in Price Hill). I show up as a pro and don't complain. A cetain amount of my wages go to the IAFF, but that is the cost of doing business in a free market. If the market were unregulated, what do you think the wage would be? Get a grip.....Com on RRilling, help a capatalist out......
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  10. #185
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    Default HUH?

    DCFF:"PG L1619 has done a good job of negotiating good salaries and benefits. Their job has been made easier, b/c of the county's ability to pay for it....they are paying for a relatively small number of career firefighters per capita. When L1664, L36, or the locals from AA, FX, Arl, Etc. go to the bargaining table, they can then say look---The average salary in the region is ........ Volunteers may not sit at the bargaining table, but their presence is felt.

    The higher salaries in PG county (thanks in part to the presence of a significant volunteer corps) then drive up the salaries of the region (including yours and mine), which then drive up the salaries in the country."


    Do you really think that the county's bargaining unit is giving the L1619 guys more money BECAUSE of the volunteers? That makes no sense whatsoever!

    I don't know what L1619 members make, but I'm pretty sure that more volunteers would only drive down the potential salaries of paid members. Where is the incentive for the county to give salary increases if they have volunteers to do the job for free?

    I'm also pretty sure that a salary increase in MD does not mean a salary increase in CA. Maybe it would help departments locally, but economies in other regions are driven by different industries and have different tax bases. The cost of living where I live is probably one of the highest in the nation. My salary is directly tied to my local economy and the tax revenue of this city.

    I agree that PG is probably getting a well-trained firefighter by having IAFF members from other locals volunteer, but that's not the point. The point is that the IAFF (your union, the one that you pay union dues to, the one that fights for higher wages for you, the one that fights for your safety) doesn't want you, as a union member, to violate union by-laws. If you have a problem with that, you can resign from the union. Sounds simple to me.



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  11. #186
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    Well this thread certainly has grown in the past few days. I have yet to see one post from a career/volunteer "brother" that has made much sense. If the "two hatters" think they can muster up the votes, by all means they should bring it up as a resolution in August. I would LOVE to see how that vote goes...

  12. #187
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    These are just MY thoughts.

    First I would like to say if you don't work or vol. in the jurisdictions in question stop posting. You have no clue what is going on.

    I have not read all the postings, but I do agree with some. The one thing I have not seen is how this might look to the public. This could turn into a public relations nightmare. The community sees things black and white "the union won't let us vol. in our community."

    The community is not educated on how the system works, and that is the problem. It has nothing to do with more members for the union; it has to do with union members from other jurisdictions coming in and running the operation, just because they are volunteers. Most of the time is doesn't concern the day to day operations. But there are a lot of people out there who are FF's in another jurisdiction and when they visit the vol. house, they are Chiefs and E-board members who make recommendations or fireground decisions that directly impact Union Members. That is wrong!! The rules state you can't do both, so quit one. No loss to the Union, I do not see you guys at the meetings or community events anyway.

    Side note, if you asked any Local Member, Local President, Regional Delegate or even the International President what 5 things would you want the union to strive for, it would not be getting "two-hatters" out of the union. Trust me, I asked.

    Pick your battles, stay low and stay

  13. #188
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    Like it or not medic, This is an issue that effects ALL IAFF members, so your request to quit posting has been..DENIED....Thats not meant to sound ugly, but this same issue occurs outside of Maryland too.
    Last edited by MIKEYLIKESIT; 02-17-2002 at 09:59 AM.

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    Angry Profesionals?! Stop posting?!

    First off, fireman george, we are ALL professionals, paid and vols.
    I know plenty of vols who take their training and performance as seriousley as any paid F.F.

    Secondly,fltmedic, as a member of the USWA (steelworkers)Local 1191, I consider this topic as important as if my employer hired an outside contracter to do MY job as a maintence mech. So, my union brothers, lets stick together and support each other!!!!!!!
    Last edited by 1835Wayne; 02-17-2002 at 06:11 PM.
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  15. #190
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    Originally posted by DCFF
    Supply and demand? 20-100 applicants for every position? You'd think THAT'D drive down the salaries
    Just because you have lots of iron ore does not mean steel will be cheaper. We are talking about finished products here, not the raw materials.
    You really must have bumped your head or been drinking too much of that PG water to believe that the more volunteers you have the more money you will get at a career firefighter. All those volunteers cost the county money too remember, even the ghost ones.... Training, disability insurance, liability insurance, PPE, the redundancies in the system, 15,000 unneeded chiefs vehicles (fuel, maintenance, insurance) and the list goes on and on.
    But once again that is not the issue at hand.
    Follow the rules, or resign! plain and simple.

    Too Air1fltmedic..... This is an issue that could effect all IAFF members everwhere. I also think you need to ask around district 4 in MoCo. you might get a different answer to your question.

  16. #191
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    First I would like to say if you don't work or vol. in the jurisdictions in question stop posting. You have no clue what is going on.
    Actually this is an internal union issue. As a member of the union I feel I have the right to comment on it. To my brothers in L36 in question, you have been given a choice please choose wisely. I would hate to see any of the brothers in L36 become scabs in DC as well as PG.

    As for the Vols. in PG, you serve your community and that's great. But this is an internal union issue.

    I support Local 1619 because my brothers asked me to. I hope there no hard feelings but family comes first.
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  17. #192
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    Obviously, I'm a volunteer. I'm not taking a side on this issue. I do not run in PG County (I ran at Kentland before, but that is beside the point). I don't have a personal stake in the issue. I want to ask an honest question. I'd like to hear responses from both sides of the issue.

    What do people think PG County would do if all the volunteers stopped volunteering? How would that situation be handled?

    I'm simply asking. I don't know the answer. I'm not trying to stir anything up. I would just simply like to hear what people think.

    Stay safe.

  18. #193
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    Posted by Air1fltmedic

    First I would like to say if you don't work or vol. in the jurisdictions in question stop posting. You have no clue what is going on.

    Au contraire, mon frere...

    This is an issue affects every single career firefighter.

    PA Volunteer...

    This issue has nothing to do about what PG County would do if the people stopped volunteering. It is about IAFF members of one local volunterring in an area that is represented by another.

    If, for example, an automotive technician, accountant, CEO, pest control technician or software engineer want to serve in PG County as a volunteer, no problem. It becomes a problem when career firefighters, represented by the IAFF, volunteer in another jurisdiction that has IAFF representation.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 02-17-2002 at 02:57 PM.
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  19. #194
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    I guess none of you enjoy the benefits of living in the world's greatest county, the only world superpower, the country with consistently the best economy, the country with the most personal freedoms, the country with the most cultural diversity, or any other of the benefits of being an American.

    Why do we enjoy these things? Capitalism. Free Market. Supply and Demand Economics. Personal Freedoms.

    The economics of the situation have far more to do with salaries than do any union bargaining team.

    In PG county, or any county or city, there is an economic value placed on fire protection and EMS delivery. This value is tacitly given a numerical value through the political process. The process is affected by the knowledge, attitudes, fears and wants of the voting population.

    The political process has established that the economic value of providing fire protection and EMS in PG County is approximately $53,600,000 plus the cost of compliance with building codes and the cost of fixed in-place fire protection.

    That $53,600,000 must provide for an adequate number and distribution of trained, motivated, and equipped personnel. I'd say NFPA1710 is as objective of a standard as we'll find. Assume for a moment that the PG County system was compliant with 1710, and this required apparatus and equipment that costed $5,600,000 a year. Assume also that this required an on-duty strength of 300 personnel. This would require a total strength of about 1500. If all of these personnel were career they would then make an average of $32,000 TOTAL compensation per year. If approximately half of the on-duty strength consisted of volunteers, which in turn required an additional $5,000,000 in vehicles, support, etc., the total department strenght would be 750, with each making an average of $57,333 TOTAL compensation.

    Situation A: NFPA1710 Compliant with career personnel averaging $32,000 less retirement, insurance, benefits, etc.
    Situation B: NFPA1710 Compliant with career personnel averaging $57,333 less retirement, insurance, benefits, etc.

    I suppose all of you would chose to work in Situation A, because it has a larger Union Local?

  20. #195
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    DCFF. What does that have to do with YOU violating Union rules which you KNEW were in effect when you took the job in D.C.? You can sugar coat it all you want, but you arent winning this argument. You stated earlier that your loyalties lie with your volunteer company. Fine, but don't expect your fellow union members THAT DO follow the rules to back you up one iota.

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    Originally posted by MIKEYLIKESIT
    DCFF. What does that have to do with YOU violating Union rules which you KNEW were in effect when you took the job in D.C.? You can sugar coat it all you want, but you arent winning this argument. You stated earlier that your loyalties lie with your volunteer company. Fine, but don't expect your fellow union members THAT DO follow the rules to back you up one iota.
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  22. #197
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    First of all this is such a joke, and all 1619 is doing is making it hard on there members, Most of the stations in PG are owned by the Volunteers, must of the apparatus is owned by the Volunteers, the TV they watch? VOLUNTEERS own, The plates they eat there lunch on? Volunteers Own.I am sure everyone gets the point. If it wasnt for the Volunteers, the union members that are working on the street wouldnt have much. As in Volunteers taking away OT for Career Personnel, thats a joke also. I know for a fact that on Holidays for example we request a crew, or ask for a second man during the day, and always NO. I know a couple years ago, the County tried to get the station with shift personnel to cover the shifts so they could avoid OT, and we said NO and still asked for extra. The bottom line is the Volunteers is not the problem, the problem is Prince George's County, but because the union Dont have the balls to stand up there and fight them, then the union will attck the Volunteers, so all I can say is bring it on and he who has the most toys will win.

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    Fighting31. Its not about toys and it isnt about volunteers per se. This is about UNION firefighters violating UNION rules. Not about who can **** the farthest.

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    I understand what it is about, it all started here thanks to Mark Hannon. It's was just a saying as in the toys, the union cant get what they want, so the Volunteers get attacked. Is the union doing anything about the members of 1619 that volunteer? It ****es off the career people because they have to listen to a volunteer chief or officer and they know they have a union card in another area. This is all fine to me, because we will not have a problem here, We wont treat the career personnel any different. As in the union members that volunteer here, more power to them with 100% backing. All I am saying is that if we work somewhat together, things would be much better, but as you know that wont happen.

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    And since this is about RULES now, how about this: I don't volunteer for a department with ANY career personnel. I am a member of a volunteer department of a municipality that happens to be within a county that has a career staff.

    The RULES as they were WHEN I GOT HIRED AND JOINED THE UNION, weren't too clear on the subject. That is why L1619 didn't just say "hey, they're breaking the rules..." they proposed a WHOLE NEW RULE that declared the volunteer company that I am a member of as a "Rival Organization".

    The "Rival Organization" that I am a member of has higher standards than that of the county for which L1619 members provide the staffing for. My "Rival Organization" can and does lobby for better equipment, better staffing, and better performance standards. My "Rival Organization" stresses professionalism and competency in the completion of our duties. To whit, how the heck is this a "Rival Organization"? Oh, it doesn't pay anyone a salary, and therefore no dues go to the IAFF. So I guess the IAFF would rather stand alone on issues that count, just so that it can enforce the rules that don't.

    As for following the RULES, I guess you know and follow every rule of the union, and every rule of your employer, and every rule of your city, county, state, and nation? If you don't, well, you're a hypocrite.

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