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  1. #141
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    Is this only about L36??? What about the 1664 Brothers doing the deed in PG?


  2. #142
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    chopperlover said....
    All the volunteers are not being asked to leave. The only ones being asked to leave are Local 36 members that are interfering with the livelihood of Local 1619 members. (Have you read that enough times now that you finally get it???)


    I have a question about this statement. If this were true, than why were members of the USAF fire dept, who are not members of any union, brought up on charges by 1619??
    i have been following this post since it started, i am not siding with any side, although i hope resolution 43 is not passed. I am not "siding" because I am in the military and can be gone tomarrow, I do volunteer in pg county for a lot of reasons, and I like the experience and advice that some of the L36 firefighters can offer.
    But like I said, I was trying not to get in the middle of this, but if members of my fire dept. were brought up on charges, than that means that I could.

  3. #143
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    Try this story on for size directly from Kentland website:

    Kentland Sends Second Day Crew to Neighboring Station to Save PG County Money


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    June 7 - Kentland transferred the stations second 100% volunteer crew to Capital Heights (Sta 5) during the day Thursday to alleviate filling the station with overtime staffing. The normal staffing had been detailed to the fire ground to assist investigators from the fire on Foote Street earlier that morning. During an end-of-the-year budget shortfall, the crew allowed the county fire department to save hundreds of dollars in overtime costs.

    Personally I don't know if any one person of this crew was from Local 36, however this can't be only a one time occurrance. Therefore it is logical to assume (yeah I know about assuming) that this may be occurring with Local 36 members as well. This just isn't fair to the members of L1619 who were not given the opportunity to get a few hours of OT, which in this economy everyone could use a little extra in their pockets.
    FTM-PTB-EGH-RTB

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  4. #144
    Member Chopper Lover's Avatar
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    Default Forgive me if I forget someone...

    Adze...
    Thanks for the follow up... I hate it when they slip in those "new words" every hundred years or so...

    Brian...
    Kentlands... Yeah, isn't that the place that prevents non-Kentlands volunteers from surrounding VFD's from entering the structure on working fires? I believe the attitude is "it's our fire, you guys stay out". Yeah, I remember reading something about that... Lot's of "Local 36" guys volunteer there if I remember correctly...

    SoHardy...
    You hit the nail on the head! Welcome aboard and thanks for the input. Looks like we are up to 13 LOYAL IAFF Members....

    CollegeBuff...
    Local 36 members are breaking the rules and are being held accountable for that violation. This thread is about Local 1619 places 43 members of Local 36 on charges for not following the IAFF by-laws. If PG County only had 43 volunteers I am sure they would have folded long ago and replaced those spots with career. PG County is single pull anyway. You get a fully staffed Engine from one house and a fully staffed ladder truck from the house next door. If there are enough volunteers around to get the second piece out of a house it may get out. If you scroll back to Eng211ine's posts he addresses the way PG County staffs apparatus with volunteers and touches on single pulls. I believe it is in his long post that responded to many posts, 2 back-to-back posts I think.

    By the way, it is not a valid point/question (in your post) because no one has asked all the volunteers to quit, not to mention it was SO HYPOTHETICAL that there is no answer anyway. I attempted to answer your question. I am pretty sure I am the only person that even attempted to do so and you didn't even mention that. What's that tell you?

    Phildabox-
    First, I like the "screen name" Phildabox, very creative! Second, this thread is about PG/DC.

    To answer your question... In Montgomery (Local 1664), we are currently and continually addressing that problem. I touched on the process of how we do it in one of my previous posts. In a nut shell, when we get a complaint we notify the member in question to make a choice, your Local or your Volunteer house. To date we have not lost a since Local member. Local 36 appears to have done NOTHING to address their members in violation.

    jeg532...
    Thank you for your question. I have no idea how non IAFF members, which I assume you are talking about when you say they are USAF Fire Fighters, are being brought up on charges for violating IAFF by-laws. Are they civilians or Military? If they are not in the IAFF who would they be brought on charges to? Maybe you got some bad or distorted information??? Double check your info and ask who some detailed questions about who, what, when, where and how the charges were brought up and sent to. I venture to say someone at the USAF base is IAFF. Keep us informed on that one....

    As to whether or not you can add input to the conversation, sure you can, why not? Does it concern you? Maybe indirectly. This is a Local 1619 vs. Local 36 thing. Local 36 members are breaking the rules and Local 1619 has charged them accordingly. Plain and simple.

    resqb-
    I agree... But unfortunately it is much bigger than just a few hours of OT. Some Washington, DC Local 36 members are providing staffing in a volunteer firehouse in Montgomery County (neighbor to PG and DC) and helped facilitate the loss of 14 career positions in that station. Local 36 is a problem for all the jurisdictions around Washington, DC.

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    #1 of the The "Dirty Dozen +1"

    I would rather have 13 LOYAL IAFF Members than 10,000 UNLOYAL IAFF Memebers.....
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-15-2002 at 10:35 AM.
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  5. #145
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    chopperlover, our civilian firefighters are IAFF, the two firefighters i talked about are military. the letter was sent to our commander and passed down the chain to our fire chief. i am not for sure what all was said in that letter, i got my info second hand, but i know it said that they could have to go to court and could face up to $10,000 fine, and said that they were volunteering at rival organizations. the letter was from L1619 and believe it was signed by their president. we have about 10 military members who volunteer somewhere in p.g. the two that got the letter are on the same dept. i will not say which one though.

  6. #146
    Junior Member TILLERMAN-1664's Avatar
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    HELLO WALL? WALL...HEY WALL?

    How many different ways from Sunday can different people say the same thing? Too many people are trying to turn this into issues it's not. This Basically boils down to the one thing that has kept the fire service together as family. It's Honor! Honor is the one thing that is lost today in the fire service. So thirteen of us here are trying to get that point across and many don't understand. We have Pride and Honor in the IAFF. It's very deep seeded and all we ask is the same in return. If you don't want to have the honor that we have, that's fine. we respect you. But please don't abuse us.

    As for the Montgomery County boys hating the volunteers, and I think I speak for most of us? We don't hate all volunteers. We are extremely disgusted with the "volunteers" in "our system." More so, we are disgusted with the good volunteers that won't do anything about the bad volunteers. I worked the last 24 hour shift at station 5 when those postions were removed. One individual wrote a letter and backdoored the entire county, the entire MCFRS System to get these positions removed. The corporation then says, "Oh no, we don't want this. We don't support this." Then they sued the county to keep the career people there. So I pose this question to their membership. If you are so angry that this individual accomplished what you as a membership didn't want, then how come that person is still president of that corporation? How come you as a memebership didn't take action and vote him out?

    (Silence, dumbfound look on individual face, crickets in the background) No answer to this day and he is still their president. So what does that say to us? You obviously wanted it just as bad as he did!
    We just want the good volunteers to step up to the plate and stand up against the bad volunteers. We want the volunteers that want to stand beside us to get up and stand beside us! Unfortunatly, some of the individuals fueling this fire are our brothers in the IAFF from Local 36. Instead of standing up for the volunteers, why aren't they standing up for their brothers and sisters of the IAFF?
    "VERY PROUD" Union member of the I.A.F.F. as well as my local 1664.
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  7. #147
    Member Chopper Lover's Avatar
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    Default jeg...

    Originally posted by jeg532
    chopperlover, our civilian firefighters are IAFF, the two firefighters i talked about are military. the letter was sent to our commander and passed down the chain to our fire chief. i am not for sure what all was said in that letter, i got my info second hand, but i know it said that they could have to go to court and could face up to $10,000 fine, and said that they were volunteering at rival organizations. the letter was from L1619 and believe it was signed by their president. we have about 10 military members who volunteer somewhere in p.g. the two that got the letter are on the same dept. i will not say which one though.
    I am sorry, I have no idea what that could be all about.

    I am probably categorized on this message board by some as an "EVIL UNION GUY" and that situation sounds messed up even to me! At face value with the information given I would have to state that if your friends are not in the IAFF I think they should tell whoever sent them the letter to pound sand. (Hard to say for sure without reading the actual letter.) Going to court and a $10,000 fine makes me wonder what that is all about. Could it be a different situation? I would like to find out if maybe they were added to the list by mistake??? Sorry I can't help you more. Maybe someone else here can shed some light on that issue...
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  8. #148
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    chopperlover,i think that they got the letter for one of two reasons, and this is just my opinion. either yes , they were added to the list by mistake, and nothing more will come of it. Or, L1619 sent it to our commander, hoping that he will step in and tell us that we are not alowed to vollunteer in p.g. county due to the conflict out there. that sounds a little more like it, why else would it be sent to the commander and not the individuals? either way, there isn`t much that 1619 can do to us, i don`t even know the union bylaws. we are in the military.

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Let me get this right.

    Originally posted by sohardy
    Just so I know I've got this right.

    I work for Local 731 Reno Fire, I live in the City of Sparks next door. Sparks is Local 1265. People are ACTUALLY DEFENDING the idea that I would go to 1265's house down the street from my home and work for FREE!!!????!!!!

    You have got to be kidding me, that is not only outside the union rules,(they do swear us in)it makes no common sense.

    Dirty Dozen, sign me up!!!!!
    Thank you sohardy...your statement goes straight to the core of this issue, you nailed it.

    Originally posted by Captain Gonzo
    I have been watching this topic on the boards for along time, now it's time for my 3 cents worth...

    As a career firefighter and member of IAFF Local 1714, the only time I ever go to fight fire in another community is on a mutual aid assignment!

    I find it ironic that when DCFD had problems with Chief "no clue" Few, they came onto these boards and got support for their cause from their brothers in the IAFF

    Many of the benefits that the so called "two hatters" tout were won by the IAFF through collective bargaining, yet they are spitting in the face of their IAFF brothers by volunteering in a community/county with IAFF membership.

    To those who claim that their loyalties lie with their volunteer companies, by all means go join them. Resign from the IAFF, better yet, resign from the career department you are employed by...let someone who wants to follow the oath have a shot at the job.

    Here's a radical thought...if the leadership of DC Local 36 does not want to implement resolution 43, maybe the IAFF should consider pulling their charter!

    ChopperLover...you are up to 12 loyal IAFF brothers!
    Very well said, Captain Gonzo, outstanding!

    It has been said that "truth is the first casualty of war," and we could probably add politics to that. What I see happening here is a few errant Local 36 members trying very hard, but failing to justify their improper actions.

    The truth is plain for anyone who wants to to see it - Resolution 43 was passed in 2000...it passed unanimously because it makes plain old fashioned common sense. It is part of the IAFF bylaws. Anyone who cannot abide by the simple rules of an organization which they are free to take or leave...should leave. The strength of our union lies in unity. In the case of the so-called "two-hatters," if you're not with us, you're against us. We're stronger and better off without you. Buh bye!
    Last edited by SquadHog; 02-15-2002 at 08:50 PM.
    "Go ugly early."

  10. #150
    IACOJ Agitator Adze39's Avatar
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    Default Re: jeg...

    Originally posted by Chopper Lover
    I am probably categorized on this message board by some as an "EVIL UNION GUY"
    I think you should change your screenname to that!


    I have a question for anyone who wants to answer...and don't flame me if it was asked before because I have not read all the replies...

    How many of the volunteers in PGC are part of L36 (either actual numbers or percentage)? And would it really have an effect on the volunteers if these career guys didn't volunteer?

  11. #151
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    Default To Callihan

    Chief Callihan,
    (Laughing) No I do not hear waylon jennings queitly playing in the background...hahahaha. Rest assured I don't assert this image as a stereotype of all volunteers. However, ask someone from this area what a typical PG county volunteer acts like and more than likely this is an accurate description. My point in the earlier post was to emphasize one of the fundamental problems in the system which currently operates in this area. The problem is that while career firefighters are bound by rules, guidelines and codes of conduct to assure professional behavior and decorum, very often these rules and guidleines are waived for those of the volunteer origin simply because these rules and guidelines are seen as too restrictive and possibly discouraging to a volunteer. One thing that holds true to this area is that volunteerism is on the decline and has been for many years. As a result those who seek to perpetuate the volunteer system ensure that volunteers are given as much latitude as possible in their operations. As a result standards often go right out the window and the higher ups simply turn a cheek, shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, they're just volunteers what can you do." The double standard is alive and well. Meanwhile while the career guys are fighting for higher standards and being held to a certain level, the volunteers, many from L36 and other Locals, are undermining this seeing the higher standards as a further attempt by the career personnel to drive away volunteers. I too have worked with many highly trained, motovated and professional volunteers. Unfortunately, none of them volunteer here.

  12. #152
    Member Chopper Lover's Avatar
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    Tillerman1664...

    It's about time you got "back in the game"! Welcome back.


    BellAt25...

    Fine job, as usual! Great explanation on what the "Brotherhood" is all about!


    Squad Hog...

    Great Comments!


    Adze...

    Originally posted by Adze

    How many of the volunteers in PGC are part of L36 (either actual numbers or percentage)? And would it really have an effect on the volunteers if these career guys didn't volunteer?
    The list I read on another web site had 43 members from Local 36 listed as being on charges. So the answer should be 43. But I am sure they went after any other locals that had members volunteering in their county.

    Eng211ine...

    I love reading your posts... As I read them I can picture you saying everything you type! Keep 'em coming!


    On A Seperate Note:

    Has everyone looked at the action photo's on Firehouse.com's main page of the Baltimore City Fireman diving out the window of a flashover? They are a MUST SEE!! May we all be this lucky if ever in this situation!
    http://www.firehouse.com/hotshots/ph...2/2/13_md.html
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  13. #153
    Junior Member TILLERMAN-1664's Avatar
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    "The problem is that while career firefighters are bound by rules, guidelines and codes of conduct to assure professional behavior and decorum, very often these rules and guidleines are waived for those of the volunteer origin simply because these rules and guidelines are seen as too restrictive and possibly discouraging to a volunteer."

    I find it ironic that if any of the career people in our system get in an accident with a piece of fire apparatus, we have to give a urine sample. How many volunteers have been required to go? Most of the instances I've seen, have been sweeped under the rug. There are a whole lot of dents, scratches and dings that are blamed on career people when the career people weren't even on duty there. I'm sure we all could go on and on; the differences in training requirements, accountability, etc, etc, etc... I know of a case or two where MC fire fighters have been injured. In one case a fire fighter was shoved off a porch by a PG volunteer on a working structure fire. I don't know how many times hydrants were turned off, humats removed because "you beat me in my 1st due area." Again, these are all instances that help paint a picture for those of you that don't see it everyday. My question is, why do we have to be held accountable and responsible for our actions, but the first time that any of us raise questions to the brothers of Local 36, we are wrong for doing so? Gee, it seems like a volunteer philosophy where I come from.

    Resolution 43 was passed in Chicago. If you don't feel that the people representing you are not representing you fairly or to your liking, then I suggest that you replace them with people that will. Until that time, live with the majority vote. I don't happen to like the President of the United States, but I have to live with the fact that he is the President. And most of all, I still have the right to complain about him, because you know what? I punched my card and dropped it in the box.
    "VERY PROUD" Union member of the I.A.F.F. as well as my local 1664.
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  14. #154
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    It's funny many of you only hear what you want to hear. There are many many more than 43 of L36's members who volunteer in PG. As I stated earlier how do you pick and choose who you are going to list. I personally can think of atleast 15 more people who aren't on the list.

    ENG211 there are many more volunteers in PG with proffessionalism and pride then there are that "typical" volunteer persona you enjoy. It's the "typical" vollies that standout and cause problems. Let's talk about the career people of 1619 who get the cheek turn on them also. It happens frequently on BOTH sides.

    If 1619 is so worried about there #'s then why have they let a firehouse close? Why didn't they push to keep it open and staff it themselves? ( There are houses in this county with absolutely no volunteers)Why do they have a contract that require's 2 men for minimum staffing?

    Volunteers are a dieing breed here and at a rapid rate. I am 100% for 24 hour career staffing at every house and have no problem working with them. I have many many career friends in the north and southside.

    Lastly you CAN NOT believe everything on Kentland's web site.

  15. #155
    Member Chopper Lover's Avatar
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    Originally posted by CMC122
    It's funny many of you only hear what you want to hear. There are many many more than 43 of L36's members who volunteer in PG. As I stated earlier how do you pick and choose who you are going to list. I personally can think of atleast 15 more people who aren't on the list.
    As I stated in my post "there are only 43 names on the list that I viewed". If there are 15 or more that they missed you can feel free to let Local 1619 know who they are so they won't feel left out.

    Originally posted by CMC122
    If 1619 is so worried about there #'s then why have they let a firehouse close? Why didn't they push to keep it open and staff it themselves? (There are houses in this county with absolutely no volunteers)
    Keeping a station open is not within the power of any Local that I know of. You can rest assured they were pushing to keep it open. If it were up to the IAFF Local's to determine staffing we would all have 6 on the Engine, 6/7 on the Trucks & Heavy Squads, 3 on the Medic and 2 on the Ambulance. Those decisions are made by stinkin' politicians.

    Originally posted by CMC122
    Why do they have a contract that require's 2 men for minimum staffing?
    As for the station staffing I don't know why they do it in PG, but in Montgomery we have to do it because there is no guarantee he won't be alone. What would happen if an accident occurred in the Station and no one was there to help? We had a Fireman in Montgomery County fall in the shower and blow out his back. He laid on the shower floor for 20 minutes until someone came close enough to hear him holler. How long might he have laid there unable to move before someone found him? It is a safety issue. No less that two makes sense.

    Originally posted by CMC122
    I am 100% for 24 hour career staffing at every house and have no problem working with them. I have many many career friends in the north and southside.
    I think it is great that you have a good working relation with the career staff. I am sure that if your relationships is as you make it appear they don't mind you being there. Not all volunteers are bad. Like everything else the bad apples draw the most attention.

    Originally posted by CMC122
    Lastly you CAN NOT believe everything on Kentland's web site.
    Thanks for that honest disclaimer.
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-15-2002 at 08:55 PM.
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  16. #156
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    On the minimum staffing I wasn't saying it's too much I was asking why not more?

    Thanks

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    Default Staffing

    I'd like to throw a couple of things out into the open here just ofr the sake of this discussion. First, It seeems that all of those who have aligned themselves on the volunteer side continue to cry about the potential loss of numbers due to the enforcement of Resolution 43. Their argument seems to have taken on the form of "If those volunteer positions go unmanned do you really think that the county is going to fill them with career people?" My answer to this is do these positions really need to be filled with career people. Lets face the facts, in a combination system it is an accepted fact that overlapping of service is required to ensure a unit responds in a timely fashion should another unit fail due to lack of manning. Now, don't everyone get overly excited about this statement. I'm not going to start the whole "scrap the entire volunteer system and go all paid argument." I'm certainly not going to march down that road. Point here is that not all volunteer positions held by IAFF members need to be filled by a career person.

    Secondly, I think this idea has been raised several times in the course of this discussion and has yet to receive an adequate response. Once again I shall pose the question. If everyone is so bent on volunteering for the good of the community why not offer your skills and services to an all volunteer department that is truly lacking staffing? We all know there are plenty of those around that would be MORE than grateful to have a couple of off-duty guys to hang around during the day.

    Third, I'm getting pretty sick of hearing about why the Union is choosing to "Jesus style persecute" the poor L36 members who selflessly volunteer their time for the betterment of PC county instead of using NFPA 1710 to fight for more staffing. To those of you who have harped on this time and again....You need to go back and read NFPA 1710 because you obviously have no idea what it says. NFPA 1710 is the standard for staffing of an all career department. No mention of a combination system there. Which brings us back to square one.

    In the combination system, which NFPA 1710 doesn't cover, Staffing levels are determined by the jurisdiction. In the o****ies in question those staffing levels are to be comprised of both career and volunteer. Personally, I could care less who is riding next to me career or volunteer as long as they meet the smae standards as everyone else. Where I draw the line is when the volunteer riding next to me also occupies a career position in another department. As a union member, if you can't see what is fundamentally wrong with this practice you really have no business in a union. SO while you continue to bad mouth the IAFF and through a tantrum for getting caught doing something you shouldn't have been doing in the first place, keep in mind if it wasn't for the IAFF you probably wouldn't have a job in the first place

  18. #158
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    For what it's worth, if a driver has an accident, fault or no, he goes immediately from the scene to PGH to **** in a cup. (barring medical treatment being needed). This happens to volunteer and career as well.

    I agree with the last post, no one should have to work alone in a firehouse, though i think 2 is 2 little. I'd prefer at least 4, with no one having to leave on the Ambo. I'd even help you get at least four...but you'd rather not have my help, as I'm "not a loyal IAFF member"

    Fistfights, Messing with PPE, Messing with water supply, are all reprehensible. I've never seen it on the fireground, and I'd personnally put my foot in the backside of anyone I saw doing it, regardless of pay status. The fact is that discipline is pretty weak on BOTH sides of the career / volunteer fence. I do occasionally see companies block others out for positioning, though i think its generally from a lack of competence (from both career and volunteer members)

    Overtime...it seems to me that a position should be filled or no. I don't know how they do it in MC, but if there's a position to be filled, and the volunteers don't want it at their house, you ought to put it somewhere else. But I honestly don't think a few guys losing some overtime is the issue. Also, if you've got 700 employees, and each gives up 4h of overtime a year, that's another position to be filled. Anyone who works overtime is keeping another potential union brother out of a job, just so they can selfishly make a few extra bucks.

    If the last line of the previous paragraph seems stupid, that's because it is. But that's the logic in the argument against L36 members volunteering in PG county. Except the volunteers in PG aren't doing anything selfishly. The presence of a significant volunteer force in PG county allows the PG career staff to enjoy the best schedule and salary scale in the region. Poor unit staffing, cross staffing ambulances, poor discipline, are all the fault of MANAGEMENT, most of which are current or ex L1619 members.

    All of these problems brought to light in this topic are legitimate problems. They need correcting. Resolution 43 isn't doing a whit to correct them. It's just antagonizing volunteer and career relations in PG county, a county where a combination system, at least for the forseable future, is a necessity.

    As for the gentleman who dislikes our current commander-in-chief: that is the way I feel about Resolution 43. Given free will, and the intellect to do so, I choose to see Resolution 43 for what it is, and will continue to ignore it, until I see fit to do otherwise. As for the IAFF, I am not a sheep, I do not blindly follow my sheperd. I agree with about 90% of what comes from the IAFF. There is no other union (rival organization) that represents me as well, so I will not voluntarily leave. I guess this is sort of like your attitude towards our President: You might not agree with his policies, but I doubt you've made any plans to move to Canada.

  19. #159
    Junior Member TILLERMAN-1664's Avatar
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    "so I will not voluntarily leave. I guess this is sort of like your attitude towards our President: You might not agree with his policies, but I doubt you've made any plans to move to Canada."

    No sir just like you I plan to stay and win my fight. I will get that boob voted out of office sooner or later. How ever I still have to follow all the laws and rules he and the rest of the government set and expect me to obey; Whether I like them or not.
    "VERY PROUD" Union member of the I.A.F.F. as well as my local 1664.
    Notice this is my CAREER not my hobby. Help a burned child. Get involed...not sure how just ask. Marshall
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  20. #160
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    One day, at the negotiating table:
    Union Negotiator: Now that we have agreed on working conditions, minimum manning, vacations, and greivance policies, the only item we have left to agree upon is wages.
    City Negotiator: Yes. We offer nothing.
    Union Negotiator: What? You mean no increase?
    City Negotiator: No, I mean nothing. No wage.
    Union Negotiator: Pardon me?
    City Negotiator: Why would you ask us to pay you?
    Union Negotiator: Because we provide the city with fire protection. We provide medical care to the residents of the city. We handle any emergency they throw at us, that's why!
    City Negotiator: Don't you also provide those same services on your off day, to the township that borders this city? As a volunteer? Free of charge?
    Union Negotiator: Why, yes, but that's different.
    City negotiator: How is that? Do you not provide the same services to the township that you provide to us? Wouldn't that be like the city taxing your income but not your next door neighbor's?
    Union Negotiator: But that's not the same!
    City Negotiator: Really? Please explain...otherwise, no wage.

    Would you want to pay someone for something they gladly do for your neighbor free of charge?
    See You At The Big One

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