1. #201
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    I follow the rules of the IAFF and isnt what this thread is all about?
    The IAFF rule about working in another IAFF department is not new. There dosent seem to be any new ground being broken here, so I think I will now sit back and see how this whole mess plays out.
    Last edited by MIKEYLIKESIT; 02-17-2002 at 05:10 PM.

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    No, it's not about following just which rules suit you (in your case the IAFF rules).

    This is about a minority of people in L1619 wagging the dog that is the IAFF about something that really doesn't adversely affect ANYONE.

    And, as I said above, I don't volunteer in an IAFF department. I volunteer in a volunteer department. That's why L1619 had to declare my department a "rival organization" rather than simply ask the International to enforce existing rules.

    As for my membership in the IAFF...they offered, I accepted. I've made no secret of my association with a volunteer department in a jurisdiction other than the one I worked in. If, by my breaking this one new rule they made, they'd rather not have me as a member in good standing, and they choose to remove me from their rolls, fine, I'll keep my dues. Just don't expect me to keep my mouth shut about things that A) are done with my tax dollar B) infringe on my constitutional rights C) affect my safety as an employee or D) affect my safety as a citizen.

    And for what it's worth, I have not yet been named on any of the published letters, nor have I received any correspondence from the union, or my local, to the effect that what I'm doing is somehow "wrong".

  3. #203
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    I think I may have went over the speed limit today..Whats your point? You seem to be grasping at straws. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, which I happen not to agree with. I would wish you good luck in all this, but I wouldnt mean it.

  4. #204
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    Originally posted by Tailboard_Jockey
    Chopper, please add me to the list, brother!
    WELCOME ABOARD, BROTHER!

    I would rather have 15 LOYAL IAFF Members than 10,000 UNLOYAL IAFF Members!

    To those "members" in question... We still won't miss you!

    PS. Tailboard Jockey, I think the smiley you used says SO MUCH...
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-17-2002 at 08:25 PM.
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  5. #205
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    Default Time to chime in

    Ok, I've been following along, and here is my opinion... I have been career for 11 + years. Was a vol before I got hired, and left that Dept. because I got married and moved elsewhere. Where I live now has an all-vol. dept., and I joined there when I moved there. I work on the side, have a wife and 3 kids. Catholic school, mortgage, stay home wife, all the accoutrements. I am far from what I would call an active vol. If there is something going on, and I am not involved with something else, than I'll show up and help out if I can. I really get a boost out of showing a new guy the ropes. The town I live in has all the problems associated with an all volunteer force. Increasing call load, recruiting and retention, etc. We have an increasing tax base, and I suspect that somewhere down the line, there will be a paid dept. there. The day that happens, whether they unionize right away or not, I am resigning (in good standing, of course). I could not in good faith continue to vol. where there are paid men. My father, retired union man, 34 years, my brother, 20 year union man, and my brother firefighters would kick my rear end, and deservedly so. The union has done so much for me and my family that there could be no other choice. I am in fact enjoying a promotion made possible by the dogged effort of our local, using recommendations provided by the IAFF as the basis for our argument. Around here, it's sort of don't ask. don't tell, when it comes to being a vol, but if push came to shove, I would choose the union all the way. If these guys wanna remain members and loyal to their vol outfits, then stay as "social" members. Most vol. outfits have some kind of provision for that, don't they? Stop scabbing, plain and simple.

    Lt. Leroy, Local 1426
    Leroy140 Fairfield, CT Local 1426

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    14 pages and this guy still doesn't get it. You belong to a union that has rules, you choose to break those rules you don't agree with, and don't see a problem? We don't need dipsticks like you in the IAFF, so please, drop off your card, keep your dues, and follow whatever frickin' rules you want, "brothers" like you are NOT needed or wanted. How's that for "membership building"? IAFF FOREVER.

  7. #207
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    Post HEY CHOPPER! GOT ROOM FOR ONE MORE?

    I MAY ONLY BE A VOL ON A ALL VOL DEPT. 1,000 MILES AWAY,BUT I AM A LOYAL UNION MAN. I spoke to the guys I work with and there are at least 20 Steelworkers here in IN on your side. An attack on a union there is the same as a attack on Local 1191 here to us. Fight the good fight man!! We are with you!!
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    Default You're Right: It's Union vs. Union, It's not about Public Service

    It's been made very clear by a number of recent posts: this is a dispute where one IAFF local is trying to keep members of another IAFF local from serving as volunteers in their area. Those most vocal about this state that they're not opposed to volunteers. So, if someone shows up with the proper credentials and wants to volunteer who's not an IAFF member, that's great. This person could be a military firefighter, career firefighter in non-union department, union electrician, non-union person in totally unrelated career, etc.

    This seems mighty odd. First, it's not in the best interest of the fire service for any location to exclude qualified persons for any reason. Second, if persons were excluded because of any of a number of other reasons: gender, race, religion, etc., it would be illegal.

    So, once again, this is one instance where private union economic issues take precedence over the good of fire protection. To be clear, much of what the IAFF does is for the good of fire protection. But, this attempt goes directly against that.
    Proud to be honored with IACOJ membership. Blessed by TWO meals cooked by Cheffie - a true culinary goddess. Expressing my own views, not my organization's.

  9. #209
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    After reading your entire post I think you have missed the point. The IAFF is not telling them they cannot volunteer. The IAFF is telling them if they wish to maintain their membership with the IAFF they are not permitted to do so. The choice is up to the individual.

    Originally posted by Ohiovol_ff/emtp
    ...if persons were excluded because of any of a number of other reasons: gender, race, religion, etc., it would be illegal.
    The IAFF is saying "Be an IAFF member, OR be a volunteer". You are correct. That is not discriminatory, or illegal. It is, in fact, a requirement set forth by a private organization that an individual voluntarily joins.

    Originally posted by Ohiovol_ff/emtp
    ...So, once again, this is one instance where private union economic issues take precedence over the good of fire protection. To be clear, much of what the IAFF does is for the good of fire protection. But, this attempt goes directly against that.
    I may be misunderstanding your first sentence in this quote, so forgive me if I am and please clarify. "Private economic issues" I take to mean the Union is trying to increase its membership (revenue) in this case by preventing a few volunteers from another IAFF Local from volunteering in another Local's "yard". The choice is given to the individual to "follow the rules or get out of the IAFF". Taking that into account, where is the economic gain of the IAFF/Local? That group of individuals could say "I quit" and the IAFF would have less membership/revenue. Wouldn't that be cutting off its nose to spite its face? I think so. Instead the message being sent is "Get with the program or get out! We don't want you or need you".

    Which comes back again to my ORIGINAL statement:
    I would rather have 10 LOYAL IAFF MEMBERS than 10,000 unloyal members. If you had not noticed, the number of those LOYAL is growing every day!
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-18-2002 at 01:33 PM.
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    Question A few questions???

    I have been following this thread for a while now and have to ask a few questions.

    If I am a member of XYZ Volunteer Fire Department, Inc. does that make me a member of the PGFD? Or am I a member of the volunteer department that happens to be affiliated to the PGFD?

    If I am a member of a volunteer department with no career personnel assigned, and I am not a member of the PGFD, Where is the conflict?? What does it matter where or how I earn my living. Or whether I carry a union card or not. I could possibly see a conflict if I volunteered at a station that had career (local 1619) personnel assigned, But even that would be a little bit of a stretch.

    It seems to me that the beef that 1619 has is with the other locals in the area. The fact that the international has not made a stand seems to make me wonder if they might not believe the rule to be difficult, at best, to enforce.

    I realize the issue is primarily between the locals of the IAFF but it seems to me that anytime you take highly trained personnel out of the firehouse for ANY reason, You affect public safety. This resolution seems to place union business before the public...Not a good thing to do.

    This type of action can only make the situation worse in respect to the volly/career argument that seems to be well in place in PG County. I wonder what happens when the so-called "rival organizations" decide that L1619 personnel are no longer welcome to use volunteer facilities and apparatus. It won't be pretty for anyone.


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  11. #211
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    Default Re: A few questions???

    Originally posted by AVF&R452
    I have been following this thread for a while now and have to ask a few questions.

    If I am a member of XYZ Volunteer Fire Department, Inc. does that make me a member of the PGFD? Or am I a member of the volunteer department that happens to be affiliated to the PGFD?
    PG Fire & EMS, via PG County Government, is the ultimate governing authority responsible to provide all fire related services within the county boundaries. (Per title 13 I believe it is.) You may be a member of the individual fire corporation (xyz vfd), but you are still part of the "PGFD".

    Originally posted by AVF&R452
    If I am a member of a volunteer department with no career personnel assigned, and I am not a member of the PGFD, Where is the conflict?? What does it matter where or how I earn my living. Or whether I carry a union card or not. I could possibly see a conflict if I volunteered at a station that had career (local 1619) personnel assigned, But even that would be a little bit of a stretch.
    The PG Career personnel (Local 1619) does not recognize the boundaries of each individual fire corporation, they use the county lines as borders; as does PG Fire & EMS which they are part of. Any station within that jurisdiction is part of Local 1619s "turf" regardless of the level of career involvement in any particular station. I think the second question about the "carrying a union card" is answered already with the "boundaries" answer I gave and therefore self explanatory. (I hope.)

    Originally posted by AVF&R452
    It seems to me that the beef that 1619 has is with the other locals in the area. The fact that the international has not made a stand seems to make me wonder if they might not believe the rule to be difficult, at best, to enforce.
    You are correct, Local 1619 has a beef with other locals in the area that DO NOT ENFORCE the IAFF by-laws. Montgomery County Local 1664 has enforced the by-law with every member that has been brought on charges. All the locals in the area have had a problem with Washington, DC's Local 36 not enforcing.

    Originally posted by AVF&R452
    I realize the issue is primarily between the locals of the IAFF but it seems to me that anytime you take highly trained personnel out of the firehouse for ANY reason, You affect public safety. This resolution seems to place union business before the public...Not a good thing to do.
    The job of a union is to protect their employees. Anyone who joins a union and does not expect this to happen really needs some serious educating. When you have any occupation, it is hard to make a living at it when there are people that are trained in the same field providing a service for free. The IAFF passed the by-law that basically says "we don't want you doing something for free where we have IAFF members working". I don't know what is so hard for some people who have been making posts on this thread to understand. The volunteer in jurisdictions that a union is organized in a choice. Be a volunteer, or be a union member. Not both.

    The enforcement of this by-law is a Union by-law (rule) that all members are expected to keep. If it was a concern of any government to provide highly trained personnel 24/7/365 there would be nothing but career staff in every fire house across the country. The only way to guarantee service as you described is to have a totally paid staff. But that is not the case.

    Originally posted by AVF&R452
    This type of action can only make the situation worse in respect to the volly/career argument that seems to be well in place in PG County. I wonder what happens when the so-called "rival organizations" decide that L1619 personnel are no longer welcome to use volunteer facilities and apparatus. It won't be pretty for anyone.
    Make is worse? Maybe. If it is in PG like it is in Montgomery the career guys are so tired of being dumped on they don't care if it gets worse. There have been lockouts in PG County by the volunteers before. They have been banned from riding "Volunteer owned apparatus" also. (Which is an excellent reason why that practice should stop.) There is always County owned equipment to ride and it is not hard to get a court order that requires the "XYZ VFD" to open its doors because it is interfering with public safety.

    Originally posted by AVF&R452
    Flame away, I'm a big boy

    Jim
    You don't deserve a "Flaming". I thought your questions were good ones. Thanks for asking.

    I would venture to say the cessation of IAFF members volunteering there will not even knock a dent in the operations. Realistically, if the PG Volunteers are so dependent on off duty career people providing their staffing it is probably time for them to go fully career anyway.
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-18-2002 at 08:19 PM.
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    Chopper Lover

    OK, in all the posts, these questions may have been answered, but I missed it so...

    All the locals in the area have had a problem with Washington, DC's Local 36 not enforcing.

    This being the case, why doesn't the home office force L36 to take action?

    (Money?...)

    How long has it been since R43 was voted on? Six months or so?

    Pull their local or spank them somehow.

    And...

    Does PG county have volunteers that are in other unions (UAW, IBEW, NEA...)?

    Assuming there are, how does this mesh with the overall concept of union brotherhood?

    In the spirit of union brotherhood, shouldn't all union members avoid volunteering where there are union firefighters getting paid?

    (Uh huh)

    Now, before anyone goes nuts...

    IMHO, union shop or not, volunteer manpower should only be used to replace a career position (like OT) when career people don't want the OT.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  13. #213
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    Mongo,

    Thanks for asking... Here are your answers...
    Originally posted by mongofire_99
    Chopper Lover

    OK, in all the posts, these questions may have been answered, but I missed it so...

    All the locals in the area have had a problem with Washington, DC's Local 36 not enforcing.

    This being the case, why doesn't the home office force L36 to take action?

    (Money?...)
    Local 36 is a problem. The International (home office) is aware and things are in the "process" of being addressed. Just like everything else you have to dot your "I's" and cross your "T's" and then jump through the hoops to get anything done. The people in my local that are in the know say things are moving, it is just taking time....

    Originally posted by mongofire_99
    How long has it been since R43 was voted on? Six months or so?
    Resolution 43 has been on the books for almost 2 years now...

    Originally posted by mongofire_99
    Pull their local or spank them somehow.
    I can't argue with that...

    Originally posted by mongofire_99
    And...

    Does PG county have volunteers that are in other unions (UAW, IBEW, NEA...)?

    Assuming there are, how does this mesh with the overall concept of union brotherhood?
    As for other unions they probably do. Phone Company, printers, electricians, teachers, Federal or Local Government employees and maybe stuff like that. In the past the other AFL-CIO unions have not really been very interested in doing anything to help out in that area. I guess they figure we are different unions so they don't care.

    I know in my jurisdiction of Montgomery County (next door to PG and DC) we have had problems with the FOP (Fraternal Order of Police) supporting us because they have volunteer firemen that are officers and go against almost everything we try to legislate.

    Originally posted by mongofire_99
    In the spirit of union brotherhood, shouldn't all union members avoid volunteering where there are union firefighters getting paid?

    (Uh huh)
    Yeah, one would think... But I think those that "don't think" are the problem...

    Mongo... Again, thanks for asking!
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  14. #214
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    Default

    Ok. Here I am being drawn into this discussion again.

    A couple points that I still don't believe are being addressed completely...

    Just like it has been mentioned before, these volunteer companies are not directly part of PGFD. They are part of the county association but they are their own incorporations. The career side is set up as supplemental staff for these incorporations regardless of how much time they actually pull. They own their buildings and equipment. They have their own charters and papers filed with the state. So, if you say you should vollie for a company not in a career system then if you are being technical (and a court will be) they are already in one. They are not technically "working" for free under PGFD. They are volunteering for XYZ Volunteer Fire Department, INC.

    In that respect how is that any different than the FDNY that volunteer for the fire company in the Bronx that was highlighted on the Firehouse site? Or the FDNY guys that vollie in their hometowns? I don't see anyone trashing those "brothers" for costing jobs and being a scab.


    "In the past the other AFL-CIO unions have not really been very interested in doing anything to help out in that area. I guess they figure we are different unions so they don't care."

    Don't care? How do you think they feel about the fact that you ask them to back you up when your own union "brothers" work scab jobs on their turf every day they are off? Do you think an union electrician is going to quit volunteering to help a firefighter who gets off in the morning and does his job "on the side"?


    "...Pull their local..."

    That makes total sense. Get rid of all the support that L36 gives its people so you can have your way. Right. Even though you yourself say that other AFL-CIO groups, the FOP, and even the international offices aren't saying anything....get rid of DC's local? They would organize another union under a different organization just like FDNY did when it quit the IAFF years back.

    If this was such a clear cut issue why aren't you getting the public support from them? You can say what you want but silence is just as powerful as words. Push the issue and someone sues. How will that look? What if a volunteer company says get out? Yea, you can get a court order or some county equipment, but you are going to look like the bad guy. The IAFF is going to look like its against people volunteering at the same time Americans are being asked to volunteer. Again, say what you want but it will look terrible regardless of the rules.

    This keeps going back and forth with the same things being said. No matter what you think is right...its a PR nightmare. Sure, nothing major yet but if things get serious it will be turned around and made into a circus in the media.

    Who does that benefit? NO ONE!!!!
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    I am with those of you that say... "I was a volunteer before I was a union member and because I was a volunteer, I now have a good job." When I was in the union where I used to work you were frowned at if you volunteered in your home department. Infact, most of us that did volunteer were doing so in counties that were ALL volunteer and no paid service existed. The union spent most of its time trying to mess with administration and those of us who volunteered instead of for the betterment of employee benefits. At one point they tried to kick a bunch of us out if we refused to quit volunteering and way back then (70's) a lawyer told us that since we asked if resigning from the volunteer department was required before joining we could get all the dues we paid since being a memeber because they were violating a "good faith agreement." They backed off and some of us then resigned anyway. Some out of frustration and others due to being promoted (at that time the Chief did not allow officers to be union members). This stance was mainly because of the fact that most of the union presidents (former volunteers) spent more time messing with the volunteer departments in our combination system and those of use who served our communities at home. There was always controversy created in one form or another. It varied from strirring up county supervisors to posting controversarial messages and articles in the papers. Even so, the volunteer system stayed strong and to my knowledge it still is today. And, even though some of the a*al retentive union presidents made it difficult, most of the volunteers treated the career guys like family. Of course there were some that did not.

    Now that may seem as if I am anit-union, but I am here to say.....I AM NOT!

    When I moved to Florida and met my girlfriend who is a Firefighter/Paramedic in Pinellas County I saw a huge difference in their Union. Even though they are a fully paid department, the union is much different. They work for the betterment of the system and the increase of employee benefits. Sure, there is some friction and discontent (but that is everywhere). Here it seems that the Union does what it is designed to do. I volunteer in Florida now and some of those guys there are good friends of mine. Even though I do not work for their Department, I do not get hassled by them for volunteering. In fact, there are even some departments here that are union and they actually hire volunteers as Reserves and that is accepted and welcomed by the union. They seem to look on the volunteers and reserves here as an asset.
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  16. #216
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    An excerpt from Chopper Lover

    "In the past the other AFL-CIO unions have not really been very interested in doing anything to help out in that area. I guess they figure we are different unions so they don't care."


    An excerpt from swr88
    "Don't care? How do you think they feel about the fact that you ask them to back you up when your own union "brothers" work scab jobs on their turf every day they are off? Do you think an union electrician is going to quit volunteering to help a firefighter who gets off in the morning and does his job "on the side"?


    Yes, swr88, there are firefighters that work on the side as electricians, plumbers, carpenters, printers and other trades that are unionized. Let's look at the Unionized trades. Most of them work for large construction companies working on huge projects. The average jake who works on the side is self employed and works the small jobs that a unionized tradesman would even bother to look at to give an estimate. When was the last time you saw an off duty jake scabbing on a union job? Ah yes, maybe at the PGFD!
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    Please don't think for one minute that L-36 is bragging it's feet on this subject, it's not. We are currently involved in many more issues: Arbitration for a pay raise and a contract, we haven't had one in 9 yrs. Arbitration for promotions, numerous unfair labor practices against the Fire Chief. A cheating scandal on the 2000 promotion exam. A special exam for the 2000 promotion exam. A 2002 promotion exam. A total disregard of the Rules and Regulations of the Fire Dept. by the Fire Chief which has caused a 200% increase in Union costs associated W/ trial boards, etc,etc,etc....
    The "list" that we received from PG L-1619 has some errors on it that need to be addressed. 1 of which falsely charging some of our members. 2 charging cilivans, EMS employees who are members of L-3721 AFGE, we have no power over what they do. 3 why did they only charge some and not others? In time we will address this issue by have a meeting W/ both L-1619, L-1664 and the President of the IAFF. Thank you.

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    Default More pressing business

    L36MAN I guess you do have more pressing business to take care of rather than worry about something that is going on in some other jurisdiction. Good luck with "YOUR PROBLEMS".

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    Default Spelling and others

    The controversy rages on. Fire Fighter is the correct spelling, two words. Fireman on the other hand is one word. Firedog is also believe it or not...one word. Just wanted to add a little levity to this thread. I find this thread interesting, but here is something to think about. As a volunteer fire chief, and a public school teacher (who is very pro-union) I find myself working all day with people who hold the same union feelings that I do, and then when I go to the fire station I find myself risking life with people who are vehemently anti-union. They often scoff at my "real job" as being a piece of cake. When the pager goes off, we are all on the same page, union or not. I still have to side with the Union guys if it is costing jobs.

  20. #220
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    1) Firefighter is one word, for those who do not accept that look in a real dictionary.

    2) Chopper Resolution 43 was accepted by IAFF in August 2001 convention which equates to roughly 6 months not 2-years.

    3) The only people this Resolution is going to hurt are the citizens of PG county which every L1619 member SWORE to protect before they were members in any union.....can anyone say "CONFLICT OF INTEREST" by L1619 members???????

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    Captain Gonzo said...
    Yes, swr88, there are firefighters that work on the side as electricians, plumbers, carpenters, printers and other trades that are unionized. Let's look at the Unionized trades. Most of them work for large construction companies working on huge projects. The average jake who works on the side is self employed and works the small jobs that a unionized tradesman would even bother to look at to give an estimate. [I]


    That's my point.

    Its not right to be going after members for volunteering when you turn a blind eye to guys doing the same thing to other union workers. It doesn't matter if their work is stuff deemed not major projects.

    You have guys working all kinds of jobs on the side. You have guys that are doing things they aren't supposed to do in the spirit of brotherhood. Then you press the issue against these vollies in one area.

    What if someone says fine...I'll sue for selective enforcement? What if because of this mess the rule has to be altered or abandoned because of some sort of settlement? What if the rules regarding ALL off duty work have to be changed to make things fair?

    So many states are right to work and collective bargaining has been stopped time and time again. In many places the IAFF is nothing more than a "professional association" only and has zero union type powers.

    There are guys I know that say why join...what are they going for me specifically?

    There is another thread on this forum that talks about private firefighters. Some one actually said he won't go to a private FF's funeral because they weren't IAFF. They said they didn't care what happened to these poor guys because they didn't join the union years ago. What does that say to people not in the organization? What does that say to people who have a choice to join or not to join?

    Let's be honest. In most places these days union members who are turned off by what they feel is a bad fight can leave and really see no difference in their day to day job.

    I give L36 credit for concentrating on matters that are actually important to their members.
    " The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson

  22. #222
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    Originally posted by L36MAN
    Please don't think for one minute that L-36 is bragging it's feet on this subject, it's not. We are currently involved in many more issues: Arbitration for a pay raise and a contract, we haven't had one in 9 yrs. Arbitration for promotions, numerous unfair labor practices against the Fire Chief. A cheating scandal on the 2000 promotion exam. A special exam for the 2000 promotion exam. A 2002 promotion exam. A total disregard of the Rules and Regulations of the Fire Dept. by the Fire Chief which has caused a 200% increase in Union costs associated W/ trial boards, etc,etc,etc....
    I agree with Fitguy51. Good luck with your problems. I am sure they are significant. I also think that although significant, they are not being handled during every moment the Local 36 office is "open for business". I would be willing to bet that many of the items are either being handled by lawyers who are reporting back to Local 36. I would also be willing to bet that many of the items are in "limbo" while they await court dates, etc. Is Local 36 "dragging it's feet". Sure looks that way to me. Your statement is more of a smoke screen than anything else to hide the true problem. Please feel free to read this article from the Firehouse.com news site of Local 36's President and his stance on this matter which includes the following statement:

    "Raymond Sneed, President of Local 36 in Washington, D.C., believes Local 1619 is looking to increase its membership by causing the number of volunteers to dwindle, and therefore forcing the county government to hire career firefighters."

    Source: http://www.firehouse.com/news/2002/2/6_FHmd.html

    Now, IAFF Brothers and Sisters, where do you think the truth lies? I think you can see from Local 36's President this attitude starts at the top and works down.

    Originally posted by L36MAN
    The "list" that we received from PG L-1619 has some errors on it that need to be addressed. 1 of which falsely charging some of our members. 2 charging cilivans, EMS employees who are members of L-3721 AFGE, we have no power over what they do. 3 why did they only charge some and not others?
    For those members not in violation, all they have to do is provide proof the charges are incorrect. For those in other Locals (3172) or civilians all Local 36 had to do was respond with information saying so. Instead they chose to do NOTHING with the charges other than ignore them. Why some and not the others? If they missed some that you know of please forward those individuals names to Local 1619 and I am sure they would add them to the list. (We don't want them to feel left out.)

    Originally posted by L36MAN
    In time we will address this issue by have a meeting W/ both L-1619, L-1664 and the President of the IAFF. Thank you.
    The meeting has already taken place months ago. PG, Montgomery, Howard and Fairfax were there in the International office in DC and Local 36 failed to show. I guess it was too far to drive?
    By the way, "You're welcome".

    Originally posted by Fitguy51
    L36MAN I guess you do have more pressing business to take care of rather than worry about something that is going on in some other jurisdiction. Good luck with "YOUR PROBLEMS".
    HELLO!! Local 36 is part of the problem Local 1619 is attempting to address!

    Originally posted by truckworker
    1) Firefighter is one word, for those who do not accept that look in a real dictionary.
    Actually, from recent information I have found it is correct either way. Maybe YOU need to spend more time with YOUR nose in the dictionary! (Thank you Callihan for your input on this matter. I am sure you are probably the most qualified person in this thread to determine which is correct.)
    Originally posted by truckworker
    2) Chopper Resolution 43 was accepted by IAFF in August 2001 convention which equates to roughly 6 months not 2-years.
    Thank you for that clarification. I stand corrected. It was August 16, 2001, when Res. 43 was enacted. As a clarification it was enacted from an IAFF By-law change which occurred in August of 2000 at the Chicago Conference. (Article XV Section l. E of the Constitution and By-Laws of the International Association of Fire Fighters, amended August 2000). This by-law prevents IAFF members from volunteering in jurisdictions where other IAFF members work. They can still volunteer, however they can't be an IAFF member. I apologize for my mistake and not being more clear.

    Originally posted by truckworker
    3) The only people this Resolution is going to hurt are the citizens of PG county which every L1619 member SWORE to protect before they were members in any union.....can anyone say "CONFLICT OF INTEREST" by L1619 members???????
    Conflict of interest? I don't think so. You sure are grasping there! As I stated in previous posts there is no proof the IAFF members from other Locals contribute enough volunteer participation to cause damage to the volunteer fire system of PG County. If in fact PG County relies as heavily on off duty career participation it is time for them to go fully paid around the clock and get away from this silly "single pull" crap they are using... I guess you expect us to believe "single pull" is the way to go to protect the public best??? That's hilarious!

    It is rather apparent you don't have that good of a grasp on the issue. The volunteers in question are being given a choice. Volunteer or be a union member, not both.
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-19-2002 at 06:59 PM.
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  23. #223
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    Default I can agree to disagree

    I got half way through page 9 of this thread and couldn't go any farther. This **** isn't anything but Local 1619's version of the Jerry Springer show. 1619 was here when I came into the PG system in 1974, why is not until 1998 that this **** was started? Not that there hasn't been problems long before 98.
    I will tell you why!
    A member of 1619 did something wrong and was disciplined for it. The person who initiated the action was a member of Local 36 who happens to be a Chief officer in PG. I guess if you are a union brother you are suppose to look the other way when you see a brother do something wrong.
    The Local 1619 member and his brothers got ****ed off because he got caught being naughty and had trouble taking the consequences of his actions.
    Local 1619 filed charges on the Local 36 member only to have it thrown out because the Local 36 member was not a member of an organization labeled as a "Rival Organization". Hence, the birth of Resolution 43.
    Resolution 43 was drafted in 1998, why was it sat on and not brought out until 2000?
    Why are the members who volunteer in PG the only group in the country that are being singled out?
    Is their anyone out there that can honestly tell me that PG is the only place in the country that IAFF members volunteer where there is an organized IAFF Local? If there is I have a house at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue I will sell you cheep!
    There was a time here in PG when a career member would asked a volunteer if they were going to be around for the day and if so if they would stand by for them so they could take off.
    There was a time when if they were going out to drill, (yes at one time they did go out and actually drill) they would ask everyone in the house to go.
    There was a time if you screwed up the career staff would take you to the side and say, hey man, that was wrong this is how you should have done it. Not, hey everyone, this *** hole fu*** up what a dumb ***.
    Ah, the good old day's.
    So lets look at what Resolution 43 really is about:
    1 - Retribution on a volunteer Chief officer for doing his J O B.
    2 - A feeble attempt by 1619 to try and get rid of volunteers in order to try and bully and force the County government into hiring more dues paying members for their organization instead of using collective bargaining like other locals do.
    Now I know you are going to have you hard core, die hard, greatest thing god ever put on earth IAFF members claiming these IAFF/volunteer guy's are taking money out of our pockets. Tell that **** to all the trade workers you are robbing when you get off your shifts?
    If you can honestly tell me that if you lived in PG, you would rather have your taxes raised to pay to replace all the volunteers who you want to stop volunteering then I have another building on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue with a big dome on top I can also sell you.
    Now before you start bashing me for my comments, let me tell you I agree with a lot of the issues of 1619. But then again, a lot of the things 1619 complain about the volunteer's goes the same for their side to. Every organization has their *** holes and 1619 is no different. Some of their members do the same things as some of the volunteers. I hear you guy's over there in Mont Co, the **** you say you have to put up with. No one should have to put up with that **** at work. And this goes to one of the issues I happen to agree on with 1619, the popularity contests, oops, I'm sorry, I mean the election of officers. If you have people in your house that are acting like *** holes that shows a lack of leadership.
    There are a lot of other issues that can be said for both sides but there's no sense in going over all of them, I think you get my drift.
    I've said it many times, I think if 1619 and the volunteer Association were to work together on the issues that effect us both the PGFD would be the premier place to work and play. Unfortunately they have chosen to take the path of alienation and dissension, this crap of tow hatters is nothing but a bunch of BULL****!
    One last thing before I go, I get the inclination from some of the remarks from some of you IAFF guy's that you think that unless you are in the IAFF you are not part of the firefighting brotherhood, am I wrong?
    Just my opinion folks, everybody has one!
    Last edited by Jam1902; 02-23-2002 at 02:49 AM.

  24. #224
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    Jam...

    Nicely written post. I will agree to disagree with you. Quite frankly I think both sides have put up their cases and from my biased opinion Local 1619 is right BECAUSE the IAFF has rules and they are attempting to enforce them. Rules are rules, live by them or pay the cost.

    Now, let's talk about my biased opinion. As you are probably aware people, and therefore the fire service, view life from their own perspective. When you implied these issues between career & volunteer didn't exist in 1974. I can tell you that you are flat our wrong. You may not have been exposed to the problem, but you can be assured it has gone back as far as the first career fire guy in history of the world. It may have been subtle, it may have been tolerated, but that is no more. It used to be the paid guys had little, if any, recourse to address BS issues the volunteers brought against them. It was considered acceptable practice for volunteers to attempt to control the destination of a paid mans career. In some areas of the country it still is acceptable practice. Again, you may not have been exposed to it, but this issue is MUCH bigger than what goes on in PG County. When the volunteers run "the show" it all depends upon who won the volunteer popularity contest for "head dude in charge" (NOTE: Much like EVERY ELECTION ANYWHERE) as to who was in charge of "the show". If a sensible person is/was in charge, generally things proceed smoothly. If you get a radical from either side, things go astray. Depending on who won it could be great or horrible for the paid staff that is there trying to work in the system.

    I have been in the fire service since 1981 and an IAFF Local member since 1986 (different jurisdiction than PG). I can tell you that these issues were going on LONG before I entered the fire service and will probably continue long after I leave. Maybe in my position I had a better variety of exposure to both sides of the fire service. I witnessed the game playing first hand and can honestly say I played on both sides of the fence. I know which side I am on now and that is MY PERSPECTIVE...

    Other than points listed above I will take your post at face value and not offer any comment on it. This issue has been beat to death and frankly I am tired of banging my head into a wall telling people that know they are breaking the IAFF by-laws that they are actually doing it. They have been brought on charges and will be addressed. Is that an issue for you? No, not unless you are an IAFF member.

    To answer your question "Are we all a brotherhood?": Sure we are. Please allow me to point something out to you on that. IAFF members are an "elite" group so to speak. You have to be doing this as a profession to be a member. To be an IAFF member the fire service has to be your JOB, not your hobby. Your average career guy puts in about 2000+ hours a year of actually being on the floor drilling, training and running calls. (Yes, we eat and sleep too so no need to point that out...) To be a volunteer you just have to fill out an application, maybe an interview with a membership committed, then MAYBE go through a background check, and you are voted into the group. How many hours do averages volunteers pull a year? MAYBE a coupld hundred? I am sure that would be the exception, not the rule. I would bet it is not anywhere near the career hours on duty unless teh volunteer in question is a "live in" OR doesn't work, have a family, or a life. (That last sentence is not a "thrown stone, so please don't take it that way.) I believe if you think about what I have written you will understand what I mean. I know in your time in the service you have witnessed people like I am referring...

    (Yes, Jam, it is a hobby to be a volunteer. That doesn't make it a bad thing, it was my hobby once also. Now it is no longer a "hobby" for me. It is how I buy my bread and butter and I just can't walk away from it if I want to. What is the life span of the "average" volunteer? 3-5 years? I am committed for at least another 10 years when I may retire and hopefully be healthy.)

    Yes, we are all brothers in the fire service and I AM SURE if the volunteers and the IAFF could find issues to work together things would get done quickly in the political spectrum. Other than "putting the wet stuff on the red stuff" I think you would find the conflicts would be bigger than you realize. Where do you draw the line of "working together"? Sooner or later there will be a conflict. Pick your point of conflict. Should it be staffing, education requirements, promotional requirements, riding assignments, spending money on different items (training, equipment, apparatus the list goes on and on)? Where do we stop? Who is right? What is the "big picture"? If you have not been exposed to these conflicts you should feel lucky. I have been exposed to it and it things are not peaches and cream as I am led to believe you think they were.

    Again, I want to say thanks for your post. Although I think your observations may be tainted (as are mine) I enjoyed reading it.

    Stay safe!
    ~ An Evil Union Guy...

    One more thought after I posted this...

    Jam, you have apparently been around a while and I think you will agree to this: The QUALITY of the average volunteer has decreased tremendously since you, or even I, started. (Same could be said about the career service). That is some of the reason why we in Montgomery County have to deal with the crap that we are having forced upon us.... Just a thought...
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-23-2002 at 10:50 AM.
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  25. #225
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    Reminiscing about PGFD 70's style..... ahhhhhh the memories.....

    Now the only thing we lead the nation in is dissention.

    Is the deaf guy fighting fire? - I never heard.

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