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  1. #161
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    Yeah, capitalism sucks. Maybe we should work a wage as established by the state. I hear it worked real good over in Eurasia.

    Do you have your job because your union fought for it, or because you actually do it well? Is your job economically unjustified? Maybe you should change that.

    Bottom line: There are hundreds of PG volunteers. PG firefighters are paid better than anyone else around, considering the cost of living and hours worked. Maybe L1619 should be THANKING the volunteers instead of harassing them.


  2. #162
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    Default doh!

    You still don't get it...

    this is not a Paid vs. Volunteer issue. It's brothers screwing brothers.

    Maybe those members of Local 36 and any other local who insist on volunteering for FD's represented by the IAFF should break off and form their own union...the IABF...International Association of Brother @#$%^&!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 02-16-2002 at 09:28 AM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  3. #163
    Forum Member 1835Wayne's Avatar
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    Unhappy

    its unfortunate that there is this rift in your county.Ihave been a vol for ten years. I have known some paid guys and some vols who weren't worth the cost of their ppe. I feel that it is more up to the individual what quality of firefighter they become. As for the paid guys volunteering in their off time, ifits with the same dept. IT IS WRONG!! I am a proud member of the USWA (Steelworkers) Local 1191.It is taking O.T. and or a new job away from a union brother.

  4. #164
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    How come only L-36 Brothers were brought up on charges? I see many different PG County web pages listing members who work for MCFR, Anne Arundel Co, Baltimore Co/City. How come these Brothers were not brought up on charges? It is plainly obvious who is in violation here. It seems to me (from my far away perspective) that the feelings are deep seeded and there is an underlying reason to this, not just the fact of Volunteering.

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  5. #165
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    Mark 440
    Rest assured the brothers from L1664 who find their way into PG County in the off duty time are also being persued. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the enforcement procedure for Resolution 43, here is a quick overview.

    Although many of you assume that the individul local is resposible for finding its members who are volunteering elsewhere, this isn't the case. In order for an IAFF member from whatever Local to be brought up on charges under Resolution 43, a complaint must be filed with the members home Local by the Local wher the IAFF member is volunteering. In this case, it is the responsibility of L1619 president to correspond with L1664 President and inform him which of the L1664 memebrs are in violation of Resolution 43. The L1664 president will then notify the members identified by L1619 that they have two choices: 1-quit volunteering, 2-quit the union. If the member of the Local President decide to take no action, as is the case with L36, then a trial board overseen by the International will convene to determine actions to be taken.

    for those of you such as Mark 440, who are so concerned with brothers from Locals other than 36, I know that L1664 has received a letter and is currently persuing those named. As for other locals I cannot say where they stand but it is L1619's responsibilty to contact them.

  6. #166
    Forum Member 1835Wayne's Avatar
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    Default VOLUNTEERINGS OKAY IF.......

    .....THE DEPT. IS ALL VOL. AND HAS NO PLAN TO GO PAID.
    My vol. dept. is all vol and cannot afford any paid members at all.
    If that was the case there I would say leave them alone. As it is I feel that these guys are being disloyal to their union.
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  7. #167
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    Screwing Brothers?

    How so...within a given budget (and the budget IS LIMITED) a corps of volunteers allows L1619 to obtain the BEST pay and the BEST schedule and the BEST benefits of any Local in the region. All other locals go to the bargaining table with this, so volunteering in PG drives the scale up for ALL firefighters in the the region.

    Volunteering in PG gives L1619 the members the added benefit of additional TRAINED and QUALIFIED firefighters when L1619 members have to respond...typically an engine house in PG gets 3 paid men during the day, but must staff and engine and an ambulance...often leaving the officer alone with the wagon. In this county, doubling the FF workforce is not an option, so volunteers help meet the minimum manning standards that the IAFF fought for.

    So, Capt. Gonzo, who am I screwing? The next guy on the list? If so, so is every L1619 member who works Overtime (and they get alot of that). Try again anyway...there are a number of vacancies in the department, causing understaffed runs, volunteers or no. The argument that "if there were no volunteers, they'd have to hire more F/Fs", holds no water either. If all the volunteers in PG dissappeared tommorrow, the department might be approved to hire another class or two, but I can assure you that the FD budget wouldn't drastically increase. L1619 Members would be forced to either go from a 42h workweek to a 56h workweek, probably lose some pay, OR work 2 to a firehouse.

    This isn't like a trade union, where If you and I are brother carpenters, me sneaking around under scale would cut you out of business. It's not like volunteers show up at the county recruiter and say, "you know, I'll take the job for $5,000 less than that guy".

    It sounds like L1664 has more of a beef with brother's screwing brothers than does occur in PG.

  8. #168
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    Wink

    It's not like volunteers show up at the county recruiter and say, "you know, I'll take the job for $5,000 less than that guy".
    You're absolutley right DCFF YOU show up at you vollie house and say "I'll do it for FREE .

    ONE MORE TIME, for those in the cheap seats!! NOT trying to get rid of ALL volunteers just trying to get union "brothers" to stop being a part of the problem, not a part of the solution. You are either with or against us. It is admirable that you want to help your community. All we're saying is your way of "helping" should not be pitting you against union brothers. You know as well as we, that many times your volunteer affiliation puts you on the opposite side of the table, on decisions affecting Union Brothers/sisters.
    It's NOT about economics, it's not about getting rid of volunteers, IT IS about doing what's right for the members of the union to which YOU belong!! Nobody's saying YOU HAVE to quit volunteering in PG, what we're saying is if you choose to do it, DON'T be a part of the union. )
    Turn in your card, be safe and have a good life!!

  9. #169
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    DCFF...let's put it in a way you can understand...

    What if I was career firefighter in Montgomery County or PG County, and the DCFD said "hey, times are tight, and we need volunteers to help our unionized firefghters fight fires, do inspections, etc."

    How would you feel if I came in and said "I want to do it...sign me up!" ?

    Would Local 36 say "that's cool"? I doubt it...
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  10. #170
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    DCFF, glad to see you're back. You were gone so long I was actually starting to worry about you...

    Originally posted by DCFF
    Screwing Brothers?

    How so...within a given budget (and the budget IS LIMITED) a corps of volunteers allows L1619 to obtain the BEST pay and the BEST schedule and the BEST benefits of any Local in the region. All other locals go to the bargaining table with this, so volunteering in PG drives the scale up for ALL firefighters in the the region.
    Are you so uninformed about things that you actually think the volunteers have ANYTHING to do with contract negotiations between PG County and Local 1619????

    HELLO!!!
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-16-2002 at 02:54 PM.
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  11. #171
    Junior Member Bellat25's Avatar
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    Default ??????????

    Originally posted by DCFF

    How so...within a given budget (and the budget IS LIMITED) a corps of volunteers allows L1619 to obtain the BEST pay and the BEST schedule and the BEST benefits of any Local in the region. All other locals go to the bargaining table with this, so volunteering in PG drives the scale up for ALL firefighters in the the region.
    OK, I'm REALLY confused by this? How does you volunteering in PG or for that matter any union member volunteering of their time and skill in another locals area increase wages????????
    Last time I checked these items were bargained for at the negotiating table. No volunteers there?
    Supply and demand economics state. If you have more items than you need or can sell then they will cost less. So the volunteer corps only serves to increase the supply of firefighter, which in theory would decrease the price (wages) firefighter get.
    But once again that is not the issue at hand, Just and observation by me.
    The issue is following the union (which you freely joined) rules (which you should have swore an oath to uphold). Simple as that!


  12. #172
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    Supply and demand? 20-100 applicants for every position? You'd think THAT'D drive down the salaries. And it does. That's why we don't make as much money as, say, High Voltage Linemen. You really want to make the job pay more? Make it less attractive or harder to qualify for...hence dual-role cross training being supported by the IAFF. How about requiring a college degree? How about strict PFT standards?

    Quit Being a part of the problem? So I guess you see volunteers as a problem after all. Quit trying to act like this isn't a volunteer / career issue.

    Every local jurisdiction has a budget. Some are larger than others. Every fire department has a slice of that budget. Some departments have a larger slice of their respective local budget than other. That slice, less a relatively little bit for apparatus, stations, etc, goes to pay the salaries of those employed by the department. The size of the slice doesn't change much, but if you have to divide it 1000 ways instead of 700, well, everybody's bite gets smaller.

    In Prince George's county, the size of the pie is fixed...it can not legally get ANY bigger. In any jurisdiction, it's hard to increase the size of the FD's slice...everybody loves the fire department, but they don't want to pay any more for it...they'd rather pay for schools, roads, business support, police, etc. You may safely assume that the size of the PGFD slice will not get much wider. PGC, with ~700 employees of the fire department, they're bite of the slice is pretty big. If there were no volunteers, they'd need 1000 or more, to even THINK about meeting responsible staffing levels and response times. Their bite would get smaller.

    PG L1619 has done a good job of negotiating good salaries and benefits. Their job has been made easier, b/c of the county's ability to pay for it....they are paying for a relatively small number of career firefighters per capita. When L1664, L36, or the locals from AA, FX, Arl, Etc. go to the bargaining table, they can then say look---The average salary in the region is ........ Volunteers may not sit at the bargaining table, but their presence is felt.

    The higher salaries in PG county (thanks in part to the presence of a significant volunteer corps) then drive up the salaries of the region (including yours and mine), which then drive up the salaries in the country.

    THANK YOU PG VOLUNTEERS!

  13. #173
    Forum Member DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
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    An excerpt from DCFF...
    The higher salaries in PG county (thanks in part to the presence of a significant volunteer corps) then drive up the salaries of the region (including yours and mine), which then drive up the salaries in the country.

    In other words...you are using your volunteer status and your volunteer brothers as the ends to justify the means to increase your salary on your career department? Now it's sounds like a menage a trois!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
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  14. #174
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    I like menages a trois. I just wondering who's getting f-ed? The volunteers? Not by me. L1619? nope, they're getting better staffing, salaries, and schedule. L36? nope, there getting a better firefighter, and better salaries. The citizens of PG county? Nope, I'm keeping their taxes down, and providing them with a better service.

    I volunteered before I was hired, when I was working a "real" job.
    I continue to volunteer after I am hired, because that is a choice I make freely. Pushing up the salaries of career firefighters is just an added benefit.

  15. #175
    Junior Member TruckieFF291's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DCFF
    I volunteered before I was hired, when I was working a "real" job.
    I continue to volunteer after I am hired, because that is a choice I make freely.


    I'm sorry but I had to laugh at you last comment. But since when is being a career firefighter not a real job ? Maybe it's time to evaluate your life and go back to your "real" job as you put it and allow someone thats on DCFD's list that really wants to be a career firefighter have your slot. I'm sure there's alot of vol.ff in PG County that would love to be a paid guy in DC. It's seems to me from reading your post your not very proud to be a DCFF, your there just for the pay check.



    Just my 2 cents.

  16. #176
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    Why doesn't the DC Fire and EMS Dept. Just go to a 56 hour work week. They could afford to pay better wages, have better staffing, maybe add more companies. The members of Local 36 that vol. in PG wouldn't have to leave DC to get an extra 14 hours in the firehouse, and they wouldn't be hurting the brothers in another local.
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  17. #177
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    Originally posted by DCFF
    In Prince George's county, the size of the pie is fixed...it can not legally get ANY bigger.
    This would be a good time for you to do a little background on how a few years back PG County had a referendum that placed a cap on how much money they can increase the taxes each year. I believe it is 7%. Is this still true? Is the percentage correct? Yes, it does tie the hands of the politicians to a degree, but you can rest assured they find ways to generate revenue. Generated revenue allows the next quote to take place.

    Originally posted by DCFF
    PG L1619 has done a good job of negotiating good salaries and benefits. Their job has been made easier, b/c of the county's ability to pay for it....they are paying for a relatively small number of career firefighters per capita. When L1664, L36, or the locals from AA, FX, Arl, Etc. go to the bargaining table, they can then say look---The average salary in the region is ........ Volunteers may not sit at the bargaining table, but their presence is felt.
    You know, you are correct in this statement. As each jurisdiction progresses forward, the surrounding jurisdictions get to reap the rewards. Montgomery County has a DROP Program for soon to retire employees. The money defered to the DROP plan gains 8% interest and is guaranteed by the County. Everyone around us will be able to say "Look what Montgomery County has" and increase their potential of receiving it also. That is how it works. That has nothing to do with the volunteers, that has to do with excellent negotiation skills by the Local's Bargaining Team. I wish to take exception with your last sentence in that quote. I think you are trying to imply that the volunteer "presence" is a good thing. I would venture to say it is the opposite. Many volunteers in places of power consider the Paid Staff a direct threat to the volunteer system. No need to go into detail on this. Everyone knows it to be true. They also know how the career/volunteer issues work "both ways".

    Originally posted by DCFF
    The higher salaries in PG county (thanks in part to the presence of a significant volunteer corps) then drive up the salaries of the region (including yours and mine), which then drive up the salaries in the country.

    THANK YOU PG VOLUNTEERS!
    You really don't have a clue, do you? All those things are determined at a level SO MUCH HIGHER in the political food chain than most volunteers can ever dream of getting. Have you ever had anything to do with contract negotiations? I would venture to say you have not from the comments you have made in past posts. Maybe you should consider being on Local 36's negotiating team. I think the eye opening you get will really enlighten you. That is if you even put forth any effort into your local at all...

    Have you ever even been to a Local 36 meeting?

    Originally posted by DCFF
    I like menages a trois. I just wondering who's getting f-ed? The volunteers? Not by me. L1619? nope, they're getting better staffing, salaries, and schedule.
    Someone in Local 1619 must think you are, otherwise you would not have been brought up on charges of violating IAFF by-laws... OOPS, I forgot, you don't want to talk about that. Why add a fact into your excuses for why you are in this position to begin with?
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  18. #178
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    Truck Skipper - I may be wrong but these DC guys are not being paid cause they are volunteer members in PG.

  19. #179
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    Originally posted by Fitguy51
    Truck Skipper - I may be wrong but these DC guys are not being paid cause they are volunteer members in PG.
    Washington, DC workers the Fire Fighters on a 24/72 schedule which equates to a 42 hour work week. For those unfamiliar with the FLSA (Fair Labor Standards Act) a government employee can be worked up to 56 (I thought it was 53 but really don't remember) hours a week before they are compensated with OT. (Actual work hours and Over Time hours are negotiated in many cases.)

    Truck Skipper is pointing out that DC could always increase the work hours of their Fire Fighters from 42 to 56 hours giving them an extra 14 hours of "Fire House" time in DC. Then maybe they won't feel the need to go into their Volunteer, IAFF Staffed, fire houses and do it for free. That would prevent them from violating IAFF by-laws like they are doing now. OOPS... Shame on me, I brought that silly fact up again, didn't I????



    Sorry about all the edits. I am tired and the first couple versions of this post didn't even make sense to me!
    Last edited by Chopper Lover; 02-16-2002 at 10:31 PM.
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  20. #180
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    But if he is still a member he will still have to do what is needed to retain his membership. He being a DC FF etc.

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