Thread: 2nd guess, total trust or other
02-17-2002, 10:03 PM #1
2nd guess, total trust or other
How many of you truly follow your I.C.'s command, without question?
How many question every command?
Example: You're in charge of a hoseline in the main fire compartment, you have heard there's extension above and laterally but you're making good headway on your room and nearing knockdown.
The I.C. comes over the radio ordering all members to withdraw immediately.
What is your move? Yank your team? finish knocking it down and withdraw? Let the I.C. know your progress? Or say, " screw him, he aint in here, we got this baby beat."?
Try to be honest, if not on the thread, to yourself.
02-17-2002, 10:08 PM #2
Honestly, back in the day I might have not heard that order as clearly as I would now. I generally trust our Chiefs and they would not pull us out unless there was a damn good reason. Great post and it should be interesting to see the responses.
02-17-2002, 11:58 PM #3
Is get p*ssed but follow the order and come out grumpy an option?
Actually, if it is our Chief himself, it's no question -- he is a very good at tactics and strategy...if he says out, something is going wrong. Overhaul, well, let's just say he's learned his lessons the hardway about not paying attention to the very end
Other officers I may not trust their instincts as much, but if they say out, I go out. Unless it's putting me or someone else in direct danger, orders are orders. (Ok, they have gotten the, "Are you really sure you want me to do *that*?" a few times)
Older I get, the more and more I realize the importance of discipline.
02-18-2002, 12:21 AM #4
- Join Date
- Feb 2002
- Central NY State
If IC calls us out, I am outta there, period. All I can see is what is in front of me, and the IC has a much better view, and has the benefit of all the other info being put in front of him (like: who knew there was a propane tank on the other side of the wall?)
Jim** THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY, NOT A TEAM OPINION**
James A. Baleno
Supervisor, Onondaga County Parks EMS
Located in Onondaga County, right in the middle of NY State
02-18-2002, 03:19 AM #5
- Join Date
- Apr 2000
That exact situation occured at a Providence job a month ago. Fire had pretty much the entire second floor of an OMD on arrival, headed into the third. Getting water on the fire was delayed slightly when a backup hoseline opposing the first was almost put into action accidently, but it sounded like the first team was making good progress. Suddenly fire was coming out of the roof on side 1 and Command ordered evacuation. The ladder company teamed with the primary hose crew asked Command if he was aware of the progress made by their team (the radios were a little sucky that day). Command replied that it was not enough and he wanted them out until the tower could knock down the fire coming through the roof. At that point they came out and roll was called. The tower went up, fire knocked down within a minute, and crews were allowed back in for extensive overhaul.
02-18-2002, 05:25 AM #6
- Join Date
- Jun 2001
On scene follow orders, If they say out I'm out.
If you have a problem with it ask them why they wanted
everyone out (in private). I'm sure they will be more
than happy to tell you what they saw and what they
were looking for so if you are ever in command you
can make that decision.
Remember it's their emergency not mine, I'm not going
to die to save a house.
02-18-2002, 10:56 AM #7
I've been on both sides of this fence...being inside the structure on fire, wailing the snot out of it with a big line.... and then get ordered out. I agree with Dalmatian 90, you come out grumpy, but you have to open your eyes and ears once you are out and look at the big picture. In the case I mentioned above, the IC noticed that the rooftop HVAC unit had suddenly dropped about 6"...he pulled us out and the HVAC unit crashed through the roof and into the area where we had been working the line just a minute before!
I have also played IC and had to order people out of a building. I think that when we are inside, we "tunnelvision" ourselves in putting the wet stuff on the red stuff
When I serve in the capacity of IC, I do listen to ideas and concerns from my personnel....I know their strengths and their limitations, and take that into concern when making decisions.
When I am serving under the IC, it's his call, but I will voice my opinions and offer my thoughts."The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY
02-18-2002, 02:35 PM #8
Wow-Lou, great question! Having worked the companies I did, I hesitatenly admit to laying a deaf ear to the "Bailout". Since however and well before 9/11 I've garnered up a long list of personal LODD's, and obviously not being included, my experience is there's more to the "big picture" then any one firefighter, or company can determine from their position. After most "good" jobs, ask those who worked them, and you'll get a number of different takes on what they saw, did, happened,...........only showing, the IC gets it all, listen to them!
"All gave some...Some gave all!"
Lest we forget!"All gave some...Some gave all!"
9/11/01 Lest we forget!
02-18-2002, 09:28 PM #9
- Join Date
- Feb 2001
Well i would follow his order, but while i am doing so give him a very clear situation report. Just remember the IC cant always see what we do, just as we cant always see what they do.
02-19-2002, 01:41 AM #10
- Join Date
- Dec 2000
- Brooklyn, NY
On the fireground, you should follow the orders recieved by the IC. Discpline is key on the fireground as we all know. The most important factor to remember, is that the IC is recieving reports from all four exposures, inside, and on top. If I am the nozzleman, it is pretty difficult for me to know what is going on around me. That is my Lt/Cpt. and the IC's job. I don't have to agree with the decision, but having basically "blinders" on inside the structure, we are all but forced to rely on that white shirt outside to protect us.
Having said that, comma pause for affect, I would not argue with going to that IC and asking for their reasoning. By saying follow their orders with only minor delay, I am not saying that they are "Gods" and know all. They are not above finding out, "Hey Chief, we had it moving back, whats up with the recall?".
02-19-2002, 03:30 AM #11
- Join Date
- Aug 2001
I figure that they aren't ordering us out for the hell of it, so logically they must have a good reason (which I probably am not aware of from inside the job), so I back out. One concern I have is when you get a relief officer and you don't know their experience and they order you into a goer. You have to trust that they know what they are doing, the same when you get teamed up with someone from another station.Busy polishing the stacked tips on the deckgun of I.A.C.O.J. Engine#1
...and before you ask - YES I have done a Bloody SEARCH!
02-19-2002, 07:10 AM #12
- Join Date
- May 2000
- DFW area of Texas
It depends on who's calling out. Most people with experince will get us out. But we got a chief that is WAY to low on experience to be any type of officer and his tactical decision making sucks. He'll call you out when the issuing smoke changes color to white. Yep steam and I ain't kidding...
"Command to interior"
"Mongo, need you guys to get out of there."
"10-4, do we need to drop the line and run for it?" (I like to mess with him)
"Whatever you think." (what an answer huh)
"10-4 on our way out. There's three of us in here, we'll meet you at the truck."
---back at the truck---
"Hey, why'd you call us out?"
"The smoke turned white for a little bit."
---looking back at black smoke---
"Hmmm" says us.
"Dunno" says the chief.
---entering from stage left, Pete, the old timer...---
"You DS, it was steam."
"You can't talk to me like that, I'm the chief." (He really says stuff like this)
"Yeah. How'd that happen?"
He's pretty excitable so you can tell it in his voice when it's time to HAOT. When he calls, we tend to lolly-gag a little, tell him we're makin' progress and ask what he's seein' while we're heading out (and more often than not look back and say "why did you call us outta there?").It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!
02-19-2002, 09:38 AM #13
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
- No. Providence R.I. : Land of the "How ya doins"
When FF's are in a building with heat, fire, smoke you have tunnel
vision, you can't see a foot in front of you let alone 1 or 2 floors up. A good IC will constantly check all sides of the building, color and concentration of smoke, etc. to check a fires progress. The chiefs on my dept. do a good job of this and will not pull the plug unless fire is making so much headway that we can't stop. I trust their judgement because they have a total view of the scene not just the foot or so I can see in the building. FIREBUFF, I was at that fire on Reynolds Ave. Made for some good pics. Chief McGarty did a good job at giving the heads up could have been bad if they stayed in there.
02-19-2002, 01:12 PM #14
Excellent question, Loo.
Personally, I would provide a situation update while in the process of following the evac order. I feel that a scene is not the place to debate tactics, save that for when you are back at the house. If the IC wants suggestions on how to handle a situation I would hope that they would ask, and when suggestions are provided, listen. Like Gonzo said;
When I serve in the capacity of IC, I do listen to ideas and concerns from my personnel....I know their strengths and their limitations, and take that into concern when making decisions.Shawn M. Cecula
IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS
02-19-2002, 02:49 PM #15
Having been in both positions......when the Man says out, you get out. If it's an emergency evac the apparatus will sound the air horns, then you know to drop everything and move briskly to the nearest exit. If the IC has a good sector command set up and is getting reports from inside and outside, he should have a reasonably good picture of the overall situation. Great point on knowing your crew.....that can definitely make a difference on what you try and do and how long you'll wait before going to Plan B.
02-19-2002, 03:30 PM #16
- Join Date
- Mar 2001
- Pennsauken, NJ
When the "BIG GUY" say's out, then out I come!
I have asked questions after getting out, but
the "BIG GUY" is usually right.Dan - FMBA Local 64 Pennsauken Township.(The views and opinions stated above are personal and not that of any organizations I belong to)Yada, Yada, Yada...(Y-a-a-w-w-n!)
02-19-2002, 07:01 PM #17
I can't see all that he can, and usually I don't have his experience.
He says get out I get out.
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