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  1. #1
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    Default aerialscopes

    Does Aerialscope build its units with pumps and tanks? I have not seen any new units like this in any magazines in a long time. I certainly have not seen any in Texas as I do not think there are any relatively new, if any, Aerialscopes in the state. I seem to remember a Mack advertisement back in the seventies with a unit from Nyack NY (I think)with a 75' 'Scope with a tank and pump.


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    Aerialscope does make there towers with pumps and tanks. My fire company runs a 1994 Simon-Duplex/Baker Aerialscope 75/Saulsbury with a 1500 Gpm 2-Stage Waterous pump with elec. gates and a 250 gallon tank we also carry 1000 feet of 5 inch supply hose. Plus a crosslay with 250 feet of 1-2/4 hose, one crosslay bed was split in two each side has 150 feet of 1-3/4 hose. The one set is hooked into the crosslay and the other comes of or #3 discharge.

    Aerialscope has had advertisements in firehouse over the past months. They can put a 300 gallon tank on the truck it may take up space. They can also put a 2000 Gpm pump on it. Our truck can flow 1000 Gpm. It is the old 75' design. The new 75' can flow upto 1500 Gpm and the 95' also can.

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    Tower412, your Scope looks great. I will Aerialscope would market more in the Texas area. As far as I know, there are no Scopes in the entire state.

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    Just a question out of curiousity...looking at the outrigger jacks and the lack of rails on the ladder, why would you choose an Aerialscope over a midmount tower ladder? The outriggers look like they need a lot of space to deploy, and the ladder looks like a couple of roof ladders bolted on to a boom. Not saying it's a bad truck, but I don't see advantages to that style so that's why I am asking.

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    Since the outriggers pivot down, they don't extend out too far when deployed. The main advantage is that there is only one set (combined with the front and rear jacks) vs two sets of outriggers on most other trucks. They may go out a little farther, but you only have to worry about obstructions at one place instead of two. They also fit between (or on top of) parked cars.
    The 'ladder' on top of the boom is not intended for normal use. It's for emergency use. That's it's disadvantage over a ladder tower, which allows you to sort of use it like an aerial. I'm not positive, but I think an aerialscope might be capable of holding more weight at the tip than a ladder tower. I've never really looked at the numbers, but I'd figure with all that metal in the boom it would hold more than a ladder with a bucket on the tip. Anyone got some number comparisons with say a KME or LTI?

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    Well here is a shot of quint Aerialscope. Do they make good towers? No! Average really. Do they make a good quint? Heck no! Lousy hose bed, small water tank, little storage, lousy ladder nesting, horrible attack line options. Ladder tip loading is less than most towers and a lot less than some. So why do people buy them? Well they cost more than any other device and you get a lot less. It must be the cult of FDNY followership is the reason. In a nutshell the outriggers and the device are outdated. You don't need a jack spread like that for the average load ability o the device. It has poor flow characteristics compared to all the others and the worst ladder on the boom. The angle of departure is a joke, right? But if you want to look like you are from FDNY buy one.
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    Some good points! I did get to see a new Sutphen 110' tower today in North Richland Hills, Texas. The dealer was showing off his latest and greatest. It was pretty impressive. American LaFrance had a 93' tower here last week. Also pretty impressive. I guess it depends on who you like.

  8. #8
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    Default AMERICAS PREMIER TOWER LADDER

    Mike C you are obviously not a very smart individual! And it is obvious you have never worked off of an Aerialscope! I however have had the privlidge to work off of one for several years. Lowest rating in the industry, I think you might want to check those numbers again, and I have had the opportunity to see how they check the booms and watched them pick up volkswagons with them!
    Do they make a good quint? Heck no! Lousy hose bed, small water tank, little storage, lousy ladder nesting, horrible attack line options.
    You show me a good quint, there isn't one out there. A good ladder carries ladders, lights, saws, fans and hooks, A good engine carries hose and water... When used correctly a baker can put out more fire than another tower in the industry. If you look at FDNY'S tower operators guide you will see how they show how to lash a 35' ladder into the bucket of the towers to increase reach. You show me ANY other tower in the business that can do that! Find me a better tower anywhere I AM SURE YOU WON'T! And you better not say pierce, because I have you beat on that one too.

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    One certain way to tell a weak argument is when the poster stoops to personal attacks.

    "And it is obvious you have never worked off of an Aerialscope!"

    Wrong, it is because I have I can say what I said.

    "Lowest rating in the industry, I think you might want to check those numbers again"

    I just read the label again, with a very average device with a poor stability rating compared to other devices on the market. Feel free to post the NFPA number to support your case, you can't. Post some oposing manufacturers info if you can

    "and I have had the opportunity to see how they check the booms and watched them pick up volkswagons with them! "

    Gee, a Metz aerial can do that!

    "You show me a good quint, there isn't one out there."

    So a few thousand fire departments don't now what they are doing, you are the lone expert eh?

    "When used correctly a baker can put out more fire than another tower in the industry."

    Oh it's 1000 gpm waterway can beat a 1500, 2000 4000 or 5000 gpm waterway???? EXCUSE ME? It performs miracles eh?

    " If you look at FDNY'S tower operators guide you will see how they show how to lash a 35' ladder into the bucket of the towers to increase reach."

    Gee if they can do that with it's lousy tip load just think what OTHER STUPID THINGS they could do with a real tower!

    " You show me ANY other tower in the business that can do that!"

    According to UL, that would be 11 other devices with better stability and loading ability.

    How about posting some proof to support yor outrageous claims!

    Seeing as how the\ baker has fallen over before and other makes haven't what else is there to prove?

    Why doesn't Chicago, Houston, Boston, San Francisco, Seattle, Dallas, Miami, San Antonio, Austin, LA, Sacramento, San Jose, Kansas City, Orlando, Syracuse, etc.....use them??

    American fireefighters vote with their pocket book, they lose badly in the market, just about dead last.

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    Gentlemen, I am not looking to get into a argument
    and/or personal attacks. Our company operates a 75'
    Mack Baker/Aerialscope. Yes is was a FDNY truck, yes we
    think that part is pretty cool. We have had the truck
    ten years and has performed exceptionally well for our
    needs. I am not saying that it is the best truck, nor
    am I saying its the worst truck. It is the truck that
    best fit our Company. I know that it has the capability
    of setting up while parked on a 15 degree angle, and still
    putting the aerial in service(with limitations).
    I am not aware of any other manufacturer that will even recommend
    that. If there is please let me know and I will stand corrected.
    The actual outrigger spread is 6' from the edge
    of the running boards, which is similar to type of
    spread from a Pierce/LTI 85'Ladder Tower outriggers I used
    to operate from. Our company likes the Aerialscope, but with it
    aging (as everything does) our next aerial device will more than
    likely be a quint.

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    Per your request, to "stand corrected" any tower can be operated on a 15 degree slope if operated off the front or rear of the chassis, no apparatus manufacturer lists today the operation of their device on a 15 degree slope off the side. The jack spread you braggeed about is 3 feet per side further than the best towers. And siz jacks, Please!

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    I have had the priviledge of working off of many types of aerial devices over my years in urban and rural areas and have seen the Baker aerialscope be used in many different situations with unparalelled versitility. Before I continue on, I also believe personnel trained to specific equipment also can form an opinion on the overall performance of a vehicle.
    Back to the discussion; I'll start from the bottom up. Jackspread; Aerialscope has a ~20-21 ft. spread on a single pair of protruding jacks. A Pierce/KME/or ALF is doing it with ~18 ft. on the front set of the dual pairs of jacks ( the rears generally not out that far). I ask you this; if the street (or whatever) is tight enough to worry about 2 feet additional of jack spread, wouldn't it be easier to spot a single jack between a car instead of lining up two jacks?

  13. #13
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    COntinued from above.

    When it comes to the tower; 1000 lbs. unlimited. Thats basically generic. The box frame allows for an overall reduction in stowed length of the boom, allowing it to drop in the street about 4 feet closer than the rest. This allows the unit to be also used as a portable monitor in ground floor fires by placing it on the street.
    Heres what the baker gives you that you dont see. 1) Protected waterway; run a Pierce 95' out and take a look on how low that waterway hangs down, waiting for abuse. 2)Electric-over Hyraulic bucket and full hydraulic turntable controls to give direct operation in case of electrical problems. 3) Solid work platform; it's hard to appriciate this just flowing water. Try extricating someone from over a bridge or navigating the boom around some hazardous obsticles and see if the sways count, they do.
    Is the Aerialscope the best at everything, no. But if you know how to run a tower, the overall package is hard to match.

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    What is the UL test number, standard, or file number for any aerial ladder tested? Interested in knowing.

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    Dang for a student, you've left out a few things, like one manufacturer has never dumped a ladder or tower, has a 13'8" Outrigger spread, 18'...21 feet LOL, has better load capacity, No jack stabilizer pins required, Single switch outrigger activation for rapid deployment, comes in rear mount and mid mount models, 1500 not 1000 gpm rating, 1,125 lbs, a 2 1/2 to 1 structural safety, is placed on the ladder tip with the vehicle on a 5-degree side slope, has 4 jacks not six and out sells Baker.

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    How about A 1,336 platform capacity is allowed at all angles of elevation at full extension plus 336 Lbs. of equipment can be mounted in the platform without reducing the rated load capacity of the platform.

    or

    While flowing 1,500 gpm from the waterway system a 500 lb. tip-load is maintained with the aerial in any position at full extension.

    or

    has the highest, widest ladder sections in the industry

    or

    When third party tested, 1,500 lbs. is placed on the ladder tip with the vehicle on a 5-degree side slope

  17. #17
    Senior Member FFMcDonald's Avatar
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    Okay - I guess I'll jump into the fray...

    Dang for a student, you've left out a few things, like one manufacturer has never dumped a ladder or tower, has a 13'8" Outrigger spread, 18'...21 feet LOL, has better load capacity, No jack stabilizer pins required, Single switch outrigger activation for rapid deployment, comes in rear mount and mid mount models, 1500 not 1000 gpm rating, 1,125 lbs, a 2 1/2 to 1 structural safety, is placed on the ladder tip with the vehicle on a 5-degree side slope, has 4 jacks not six and out sells Baker.

    Dang - for a genius - you aren't too accurate. The E-One HP105 Aerial --- the truck for which you are quoting all these figures for - is not available in a mid mount- only a rear mount. The only 105 foot MID MOUNT tower ladder available- I believe is from Sutphen.

    Why say "One manufacturer?" Why not just come out and say "E-One" ???
    You think we aren't going to find out whom you are talking about? Or are you a E-One Rep- and trying to badmouth your competition?

    Copied from the E-One Website ( www.e-one.com )
    All E-One aerials are designed with a 2 1/2 to 1 structural safety factor on yield strength, dead load, live load, and water load allowing for a greater margin of safety for all aerial operations. The HP105 Platform has the highest structural safety factor in the industry even while flowing water. A 1,336 platform capacity is allowed at all angles of elevation at full extension. While flowing 1,500 gpm from the waterway system a 500 lb. tip-load is maintained with the aerial in any position at full extension. The HP105 Platform has the highest, widest ladder sections in the industry. 336 Lbs. of equipment can be mounted in the platform without reducing the rated load capacity of the platform.

    Glad to see that Mike C has mastered the art of cut and paste...
    Anyway --

    When I start looking at these numbers I find it very interesting that there is a 1,336pound capacity - and 336lbs of equipment can be mounted in the platform - without affecting the load capacity. Why not just say -- 1,000 lb capacity???

    Oh and Mike C - if you check Aerialscope Website http://www.aerialscope.com/(by the way - they stopped being Baker-Aerialscope many years ago...) then you will notice that they have a 1,500 flow capacity, with a 1,000 pound capacity in the bucket; in ANY position. If you visit E-One's website - you will see by their own admission that... "While flowing 1,500 gpm from the waterway system a 500 lb. tip-load is maintained with the aerial in any position at full extension

    And ... Oh it's 1000 gpm waterway can beat a 1500, 2000 4000 or 5000 gpm waterway???? EXCUSE ME? It performs miracles eh? The only piece of apparatus that I know of that can produce the flows you speak of - is the SCHWING Fire Boom http://www.schwing.com/products/fire...tml/fire.html. One of which was built by National Foam for the RTFC - Refinery Termianl Fire Company in Corpus Christi, TX.http://www.rtfc.org/equipment.html
    And if you take a look at their pictures - you will notice there is no 'bucket' on the boom.

    has 4 jacks not six -- An Aerialscope only has 2 outriggers. Much easier for placement - say on a crowded street- where you can drop an outrigger between two parked cars. Than say - trying to drop 4 outriggers. The 'Scope does have 4 'vertical stabilizers' that extend straight down- and they are located at the front and rear of the apparatus, and don't increase it's overall profile.

    Oh -- and has a 13'8" Outrigger spread, 18'...21 feet LOL Since you were quoting the HP105- why not mention it's outrigger spread of 17'6" - also found on the E-One website. Not the 13'8" - like you quoted... which is for the HP95. C'mon - let's compare apples to apples. And the spread for an Aerialscope 95' is 20' 3/4", and a Aerialscope 75' is 19.5'.

    I have no idea why you feel this need to harass someone about their like for a particular apparatus manufacturer. So FDNY uses Aerialscopes?? Big deal? - they find that it fits their needs, So they buy them.

    Chicago has begun to use Pierce Aerials. -- and Boston is buying a few too. Try checking out this months Fire Apparatus Journal Looks like FD's are voting with their pocketbook , and they aren't voting for E-One....

    Please- prove what I have posted here wrong. You can't. Cause I have listed all my sources.
    Last edited by FFMcDonald; 03-25-2002 at 03:12 AM.
    Marc

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    Member - IACOJ
    "Got Crust?"

    -- The opinions presented here are my own; and are not those of any organization that I belong to, or work for.

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    hey chops is this what you mean about storefront fires?


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    Per your request to, "Please- prove what I have posted here wrong"

    "The only piece of apparatus that I know of that can produce the flows you speak of - is the SCHWING Fire Boom "

    it's 1000 gpm waterway can beat a 1500, 2000 4000 or 5000 gpm waterway???? ,That was in response to: "When used correctly a baker can put out more fire than another tower in the industry. "

    Is a E-One 105 tower capable as you state of flowing 1500 gpm and a Sutphen, KME too?? Does a Sutphen water tower ladder flow 2000 gpm or are they lying? The E-One 105 HP industrial water tower flows 300 gpm. The Baker water tower flows 4000 offered by National foam. The Schwing flows 5000 and is available with a basket. SO DID IT LEAVE SOMETHING OUT? Do they all meet the definition of tower put forth by NFPA?

    Gee one paragraph refers to a 105 E-one. Don't mixand match postings. Is the spread of the E-one almost 3 feet less? Isn't the spread of the 95 E-one apples to apples less than the Scope? By almost 7 feet?

    Doesn't the E-one have a 2.5 to 1 versus the aerialscopes 2 to 1 safety factor??? YES!

    "Why say "One manufacturer?" Why not just come out and say "E-One" ??? "

    Unlike you, I was trying to keep this from being a vendor bashing. YOu are the one naming names.

    "the truck for which you are quoting all these figures for - is not available in a mid mount- only a rear mount. "

    If you wouldn't jump around between posts you'd see I was talking about the 95 footer not a 105. So yes it comes in both.

    "When I start looking at these numbers I find it very interesting that there is a 1,336pound capacity - and 336lbs of equipment can be mounted in the platform - without affecting the load capacity. Why not just say -- 1,000 lb capacity??? "

    Let me do the math for you. 1336 plus 336 = 1672 lbs. 1336 and 1672 is more than 1000 so why say 1000?

    "they stopped being Baker-Aerialscope many years ago...) " In response to the redrocket post "When used correctly a baker can put out more fire than another tower in the industry." So ask him.

    "then you will notice that they have a 1,500 flow capacity" Tower412 posted the 1000 gpm flow rate, if he is wrong tell him, but you will see it is actually 800 gpm (at 220 psi to the inlet) and 800 pounds accordiung to the data you posted on the web link, LOL. http://www.aerialscope.com/six%20mil...ning/specs.htm

    Under 95 foot tower on the aerialscpe site under the opening photo does it say 1250 gpm unrestricted or 1500 I see 1250, SO I can only assume you are lying to make your case. Even their 75 can't do that. IS 1500 more than 1250? The site says 1000 lbs basket capacity, is 1000 more than 1336?

    Seeing as how yo bring up FDNY, here is what the vendor says about their brand nw units under new deliveries , "Aerialscope, Inc. has delivered a new 95' Aerialscope to FDNY. The aerial platform is mounted on a Seagrave chassis with an all steel 6 man cab. Platform capacity is 800lbs. with 1000 GPM water flow." Is 800 lbs. more than 1336? Is 1000 more than 1500 gpm? "FDNY takes delivery of a new 75' Aerialscope. The aerial platform is mounted on a Seagrave chassis with an all steel 6 man cab. Platform capacity is 1000lbs. with 1000 GPM water flow. Tower Ladder 162 went into service "



    Who other than FDNY owns more than 4? Please list a few????



    "has 4 jacks not six -- An Aerialscope only has 2 outriggers."

    Gee I didn't say anything about outriggers are you sure who you are talking too? Or do you just make crap up as you go? Outriggers, jacks, stabilizers, it is six not four right??? They are wider than the rigs I posted right? YES< YES!

    "and don't increase it's overall profile. "

    13' 8" beats 22 feet right, every time right?






    4 jacks not six and out sells Baker.

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    "Oh -- and has a 13'8" Outrigger spread, 18'...21 feet LOL Since you were quoting the HP105- why not mention it's outrigger spread of 17'6" "

    Well, the 13' 8" off one post is for the 95 foot apples versus apples you know and the 17'8" is a 105 like you state. 13'8" and 17'6" are both a lot less than 21' right?????????

    "I have no idea why you feel this need to harass someone about their like for a particular apparatus manufacturer. "

    Not at all, simply posting facts. I answered the posters questions. Know why those outriggers are out there so far for a 800 lbs payload? Why does it only flow 1000 gpm not 1500? Why it has to have 6 jacks? Has a non-rated ladder? Has suck limited storage. LOUSY DESIGN is why. Sure take the ladder off anyones ladder and the payload would go up. Just like removing the bucket.

    "Chicago has begun to use Pierce Aerials. -- and Boston is buying a few too. "

    And a majority of their ladders and towers are made by? E-One

    How about KME? Best Elevation in the Industry (-5 to +80 degrees) Gee some aerialscopes go 8 degrees just only six have owners none in FDNY. The aerial device is the strongest available and is proof load tested with 4677lbs. True 2:1 Safety Factor Not 2.5 like E-One though. 1000 Lbs Dry, Unrestricted -5 to +80 Degrees
    500 Lbs Flowing Water, Unrestricted -5 to +80 Degrees Gee guess what happens if you only put 800 pounds in the basket? 1500 gpm. Oh so aerialscope is playing with numbers aren't they, or 1500 gpm at 1000 pounds if you go 1.5 to 1. Oh, it is all smoke and mirrors, but not NFPA.

    You'll note the vendors hide the data they don't compete well on. Like outrigger spread, number of rigs that have failed, flow limits, angles, ladde width and rail height, etc. The fact you can put the bed section of some ladders in the fly section of others etc.

    Oh, store front attack, if six devices all have the same -5 degree or better ability and the same number of sections don't they all squirt water through a store front? All the four flys would be the same all the 3 would be the same. SO the point is?? 800 gpm FDNY unit or 1500 gpm with the other guys.

    "Please- prove what I have posted here wrong. "

    I have in spades.

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