View Poll Results: Shoudl IAFF members be allowed to Volunteer without IAFF interferance

Voters
102. You may not vote on this poll
  • YES

    45 44.12%
  • NO

    21 20.59%
  • Yes, but not in the same jurisdiction they work in.

    36 35.29%
  1. #1
    District Chief
    distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Question A Poll: Should IAFF members be allowed to volunteer with interference?

    Everyone has an opinion...so lets see how this poll goes?
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  2. #2
    MembersZone Subscriber
    gfdtrk4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The southern shore of beautiful Lake Michigan
    Posts
    250

    Thumbs up Yes

    My opinion

    I'm going to volunteer
    (always have, always will..... at least til I WANT to stop)
    FTM-PTB
    trk4

  3. #3
    Member
    SquadHog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Urban East Hogville
    Posts
    76

    Default

    Capt. Stan:
    I think you need to make a distinction between an IAFF member volunteering in a jurisdiction where there is no IAFF local (i.e. all volunteer, no career firefighters,) and an IAFF member who volunteers in a department where other IAFF members work... there is a BIG difference and this is the issue that Resolution 43 addresses.

    If you were to do that I would vote YES in the first instance and NO in the latter.
    "Go ugly early."

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Florence KY
    Posts
    43

    Post

    I can see several issues, both from the IAFF, and from small communities, and firefighters who love their work. The IAFF is working to ensure current jobs and future jobs for firefighters. This is what they are there for, in addition to lots of other things. Most small communities can't afford a fully-paid, or partly paid fire department, and so they have to rely on volunteers. This leads to the third point. Most firefighters, career and volunteer, love the job! The love the excitement, commraderie, friendships, adrenaline rush, trucks, soot, etc. about firefighting.

    There are so many points to this whole career/volunteer/IAFF issue, many of which are heartfelt and lead to bashing of both sides, by both sides. Does this mean that the IAFF is wrong? I won't say because I don't know. Does this mean that fire departments, both career and volunteer, are wrong? Not sure. I would think that most volunteer departments would love having a career firefighter who is willing to serve the community and help make the department better.

    Now, by volunteer department, I mean a true volunteer department. It might have some part-time or full-time daystaffing. This is common in Kentucky, and other parts. Some of them have unions, some don't. But, isn't it all about serving the community and protecting the people in that community? Some career firefighters aren't the best, just as some volunteers aren't either, so the training issue can apply to both.

    Just my opinion, might not be right, or wrong, just try to understand.

    Keep safe, play hard......

  5. #5
    District Chief
    distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    Squadhog...

    I appreciate your view but I wrote it that way because I honestly dont think it should matter. It is their right to be a member of their community fire department. Thanks for the input though. I do understand the resolution...but...I still dont agree with it.

    I also would continue to volunteer....they could have my card!

    PS...moderator....please correct the first word of the poll to read "Should" @#$%@ no spell check

    Thanks....
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  6. #6
    IACOJ Agitator
    Adze39's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    In a van down by the CT River!
    Posts
    2,771

    Default

    I chose "Yes, but not in the same jurisdiction". I believe that should be a department thing, not union though.

    My town has two volunteer fire departments. We don't allow you to be a member of both. Why not? Main reasons would probably be to the extent of conflict of interest and providing service to "rival organization" (to borrow a term). The same would go with career/volunteer. If they live outside of the jurisdiction, then nothing should stop them from volunteering their own time.

  7. #7
    District Chief
    distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    Adze....

    I might partially agree with you on that.....I guess it would depend on what the Blue Suited jurisdictional attroney says about how he interprets FLSA...and we all know that there is most likely a different opinion in each jurisdiction....(Dont they all get to read the same thing?...hmmmmm). Still think as long as they are off duty...they should be able to do as they please (within the limits of the law of course) whether a union or no union is present. For example....a very small department in a small city. 1 Station, a paid Chief and a total of 6 firefighters. They have no tax base to support more and rely on the help of volunteers as supplemental staffing. They are IAFF.....If the writing is on the wall that no more staffing is available and the system is combination and the FLSA Goobers have no problem with it... If you do not allow a person to volunteer in that department because he is union and works there or is a union memeber of the County Fire Department that surrounds that small city....then you are putting your fellow brothers in danger. That may be an extreme case...but...none the less...I know it is a real one and DOES exist.

    I also agree that you can not adequately serve two different volunteer departments in the same jurisdiction. That is assuming you have a job (Firefighting or otherwise) and spend your off the job contributing to the volunteer dept. Besides....how do you decide which one to respond to if they both have a call at same time or are both dispatched to the same call????
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  8. #8
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,586

    Default

    I agree with SquadHog
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  9. #9
    District Chief
    distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    just moving this back to the top so more folks will see it.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  10. #10
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    13

    Default

    My opinion on this is no. Eventually, these people that "two-hat" it, are going to have to make a choice between the two. You cannot serve two masters, and while I have been on both sides of the fence, I will support the side that has provided better benefits and working conditions for me during my career-the IAFF.

  11. #11
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Posts
    77

    Default

    Looks like the so called IAFF brotherhood is going down in a route!!!!!!!!

    I thought the membership set the rules, oh well guess not!

  12. #12
    District Chief
    distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    Mike....I dont know if the IAFF is going down. I just think they are making a mistake. It is obvious from the results of this poll that only a few (at this point) are hard line "NO" folks. I think that when they begin to interfere with what you can do on your own time in your own community then they are taking away some of that "AMERICAN FREEDOM."

    The IAFF is a great organization. I have seen that from working with my girlfriend's local in the county she works at. Their primary purpose is to focus on better working conditions etc. I think in some cases as administration changes or someone wakes up with a gas pain and mistakes it for an idea of brilliance that they often make decisions or rules that would make one believe they are out to eliminate the volunteer system.

    That was apparent from my old IAFF Local's continued efforts to discredit the volunteers in the combination department instead of efforts to work with and support administration in the ever present budget process. I recent years however, the newer IAFF officials in that organization seem to have changed gears a bit. It used to be amazing to me. When career staff was off duty and the volunteers had the "big one" and it went bad, the IAFF moles made sure the papers got all the details. But when a "big one" during career hours went bad, it was an "untenable situation", "we did all we could".... I guess fires burn different at night or on weekends. I know this is not the point of the post, but yet it is an example on how the IAFF focus is different from location to location.

    Whiel the yes vot is split here to a yes....but vote, it is still obvious that the opinion exists that the union is "out of bounds here." I realize that this resolution is focused on IAFF members volunteer in jurisdictions where IAFF is present or where career firefighters are located.... But...I still think it is minding other peoples business. And....as things go...some local IAFF will no doubt soon interpret the ruling to mean "any volunteering" is off limits.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  13. #13
    Member
    SquadHog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Urban East Hogville
    Posts
    76

    Default

    Capt. Stan:
    With all due respect, I'd be very skeptical about drawing any conclusions from your poll. There is an expression, "Let me tell you a question" used to describe a question with a built in bias. Professional pollsters regularly use this technique to the full advantage of whomever is writing the check.

    As I mentioned previously, there is a BIG difference between an IAFF member volunteering in a jurisdiction where there is no IAFF local and an IAFF member who volunteers in a department where other IAFF members work.

    I am a loyal IAFF member. I also volunteer at home in a small, rural town protected by a small, exclusively volunteer department. There are no career departments in the area, I am not interfering in any way with the jobs of union members, therefore I am, in fact, "allowed to volunteer without interference."
    Last edited by SquadHog; 03-04-2002 at 10:42 PM.
    "Go ugly early."

  14. #14
    District Chief
    distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    Squad Hog????

    What constitutes a career department? If your small town fire department went to the Town Government and said... Can we have assistance in the form of a paid driver during the day? Does that make your department a career department? If so....since there is no union in a one person department....would you have to quit volunteering?

    I applaud you for remembering your roots and sticking with your volunteer department. HOORAH! We have one thing in common after all...LOL...
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  15. #15
    Forum Member
    MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Division 24
    Posts
    4,360

    Default

    Thats right Mike C. it sure looks like a "route" against the IAFF with all those votes in. Im sure those 30 votes are going to break up a union that has been organized since 1918. If you are a member and you choose to volunteer on another IAFF Department, you are wrong.
    Last edited by MIKEYLIKESIT; 03-04-2002 at 07:16 PM.

  16. #16
    Member
    Fire61's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Somewhere Between the Backstep and the Seat of the Fire.
    Posts
    48

    Unhappy Bad Union FF's?

    Everyone has a right to make a decision based on what fits their lifestyle. It is called freedom of choice. However, it is not a "right" to belong to the IAFF. It is your free choice to leave according to a Constitution you agreed to, if you choose not to follow the rules.

    We are a bit different up here, as there are hardly anything even close to "volunteer" firefighters. Most are all "part time" and many of them are starting to unionize under the United Auto Workers. In my area, most make a 2 hour minimum per call at $25.00/hr, based on what full time make. Regardless, they are just as committed to their citizens and do an excellent job.

    As far as being a firefighter is concerned, I respect part time firefighters. They do an excellent job under adverse conditions, and usually fight more advanced fires, as detection and response times differ. We both try to make a difference within our communities. That being said though, I will not be apologetic for being a full time firefighter.

    As for Captstanm1. I have read your posts, and see that you have a lip on against F/T firefighters and in particular, unions. I assume that your pension is paid for through your volunteer contributions, so automatically have to respect your warped outlook.

    I try to respect all my bretheren. For, not all my brothers have to belong to the IAFF for them to be kindred to me.

    Stay safe.

  17. #17
    District Chief
    distchief60b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    6,413

    Default

    Fire61
    With all due respect to my neighbor from the north.....
    I am not sure why you assume I have a "LIP" about F/T firefighters??? Not know much about volunteers and what they stand for...you sir...seem to have a "LIP" about non F/T firefighters. My girlfriend is a firefighter (F/T as you would have it) as are a lot of my friends. I have no problem with that at alland they have no problem with me volunteering (even though I am a former union member). I used to be a F/T firefighter and am considering going back into it as an Auxillary/Part Time Firefighter. So...put on your glasses. My problem is not with paid firefighters or full time firefighters or even unions...

    My problem is with freedom of choice as you mention it. I will give you the fact that the members who joined the IAFF did agree to abide by the almighty constitution & by-laws. However, it is one of those rules that has been on the books and is not enfoced or has not been. Just like it is "unlawful for a divorce woman to go skydying in Florida on Sunday." A ridiculous rule right? I think this is a ridiculous and unfair rule..thats all I am saying. I wonder how many other "rules" go uninforced in the "by-laws" everyone seems to be so bound to uphold? This is one of those rules that is not enforced until you tick someone off. That has happened and now it is an issue. It is a dumb rule and should be changed......
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    MIKEYLIKESIT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Division 24
    Posts
    4,360

    Default

    Stan...When you choose to become a Union Firefighter you DO have a choice, FOLLOW THE RULES ! How hard is that to understand?

  19. #19
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    canton oh
    Posts
    18

    Post

    I to am an IAFF member and volunteer for my community fire dept. My volunteer dept. is small and on a tight budget we share day time manning with another small town volunteer dept.

    I don't see a conflict because the money is not there to pay for a f/t dept. I feel I'm in a position to help the community due to my experience. Besides that my wife and kids have to depend on this dept. for medics or fire.

    It is my resposibility to provide for my family and I want to know that the responding people are trained and able to take care of them if needed. Whats wrong with that? After all it is my time and the department I have to rely on.
    Stay cool, Be safe

  20. #20
    Member
    SquadHog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Urban East Hogville
    Posts
    76

    Default

    captstanm1 :

    I find it highly unlikely, with a whopping total of just over 100 runs in all of 2001, that my hometown department could justify any career members. We don't even have a cop here, so I know the town couldn't afford it. But that really isn't the issue is it? The bottom line, Captain, is what the IAFF by-laws say. They say that an IAFF member shalt not be a volunteer in a juridiction where another IAFF Local is organized. In my case, the closest place fitting that description is over 30 miles and two counties away. If I could not live with that rule, I wouldn't belong to the union.

    "Roots" have nothing to do with it. A career or combination department is not an option where I live so it's a purely practical decision. If push ever came to shove, my loyalty would be with the IAFF, the union that bargains for the paycheck that keeps a roof over my family's head and food on the table, as well as every job benefit that I now enjoy.

    None of this changes the fact that your poll question is so biased in it's wording that does not accurately address the issue. IAFF members are "allowed to volunteer without interference" as long as their volunteering doesn't interfere with another IAFF members job.

    "Progress through Unity"
    Last edited by SquadHog; 03-04-2002 at 10:57 PM.

  21. #21
    Member
    Fire61's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Somewhere Between the Backstep and the Seat of the Fire.
    Posts
    48

    Talking Lip On!!!

    Dear Stan,

    Yes, I have a lip on for non fulltime firefighters. I admire them, and do not put them down for their skills or efforts. My apologies.

    As for your skydiving, I wish you well, for I am neither a woman nor a skydiver from Florida, so I bow to your knowledge in this field. (I bounce well on non-parachute landings) HOWEVER... As you are not a current IAFF member, I would suggest that your bias is unjustified, as it HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!!!

    In my jurisdiction, there are far more reasons for this Article of the Constitution than taking a fulltime firefighter's job away. Some of them are our supplemental sick leave plan, workmen's compensation, general (Call back) alarm manning, disaster response protocols, etc.

    There is also the issue of how my arbitrations and grievances benefit surrounding part time Departments, all due to "silly little rules." Last time a grievance cost me personally $2,000.00 (And the same for each of my 58 brothers) to enforce a "silly" manning part of my contract, that led to the hiring of over ten part time firefighters into the fulltime ranks. (Bad union)

    I love my career. When it comes to covering my brother's back or protecting my family financially, I choose the IAFF. Should I cower in my pride?

  22. #22
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Posts
    770

    Default

    I didn't at first, but in retrospect I can basically see the root point that IAFF is driving at, and yeah, there's probably something to it. I just want one issue answered, and then I'll shut up. Why do the volunteer departments need to be classified as "Rival Organizations"? ESPECIALLY if this is such a career/career issue, as the IAFF supporters are claiming it to be! Why is it necessary to list off every volunteer department in PGC and declare them "Rivals" if this is "Not an issue of careers versus volunteers"! THAT'S the problem that I think people have with R-43. If I'm offbase here please educate me. I think I'm beyond the age of being lectured or talked down to. Thanks, and stay safe.

  23. #23
    Member
    Fire61's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Somewhere Between the Backstep and the Seat of the Fire.
    Posts
    48

    Default Good One!!!

    I'd like to know that answer as well, CollegeBuff!

    I was unaware of that action taking place, and it makes no sense to me. Maybe someone involved can answer with facts?

    Stay safe.

  24. #24
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Washington, DC USA
    Posts
    115

    Default

    With all due respect, guys, let's look at this from another perspective. First of all, let me say that I am a proud IAFF member of 28 years. I thank God for the IAFF and all that it has done for me and my family. I live in an area that is protected by a combination career/volunteer system (PG County, Md.), and the career personnel are represented by IAFF Local 1619. I support their position that the IAFF must enforce Resolution 43.

    HOWEVER:

    That is not my reason for posting. Looking at the situation strictly from a dispassionate financial angle, let me pose the following question. If one of you IAFF members is disabled while volunteering, to the extent that you can no longer work in your career department, can you live on the disability income (if any) from that volunteer department? It is certainly a scenario none of us wants to consider, but just look at today's headlines about the tragic story of the Charlotte career firefighter who was critically burned while volunteering in Harrisburg. It is not pleasant to contemplate, but it is certainly possible.

    Whatever your heart tells you to do, consult your head before you make a decision that may alter your (and, at least as importantly, your family's) future.

    Stay safe, brothers.

  25. #25
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 1999
    Location
    Bowie, MD USA
    Posts
    73

    Thumbs up

    Hey Mikey Ė I donít pay to much attention to polls either, they really donít mean squat. And I hope you donít mind if I humbly disagree with you on someone volunteering in another jurisdiction that has an IAFF local. Thatís one of the great things about being an American; we can all have different opinions and we can agree to disagree and keep moving forward.
    Peace!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register