1. #1
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    Firespritz's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Friction Loss Charts

    Does any one have any downloadable friction loss charts that can be sent to me. Would be much easier than having to type out my own. Need them for my own personal Lt's cheat book I carry with me. Please feel free to email me at Firespritz@firehousemail.com about this or anything!!

    Thanks
    Spritz

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    Check out Elkhart Brass or Akron Brass' web sites for the chart or if you have the catalogs you them look in the back they both have flow charts and more....



    www.elkhartbrass.com
    or
    www.akronbrass.com



    Robert B.

    Haddon Fire Company No.1

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    How can I find out how much water Im flowing on my TFT auto nozzle, so I know how much the friction loss is? Is there any charts floating around the internet?

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    Here's TFT's webpage for flow charts.......


    http://www.tft.com/library/lib_list....Cat=FlowCharts



    Robert B.

    Haddon Fire Company No.1

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    If you have Microsoft Excel, you can download a spreadsheet from my website that let's you calculate out your own figures.

    http://www.mortlakefire.org/Miscfire...o/fireinfo.htm

    The Friction Loss sheet allows you to input GPM, pump discharge pressure, desired nozzle pressure, and elevation change and it will calculate the length of hose using both standard "C" values from the charts, and the far superior "C" values from several makes/models of modern fire hose (willing to add any others in I can get manufacturer's numbers for! Just email them to me!)

    For instance, you can plug in:
    200gpm Volume
    100psi Nozzle Pressure (typical for auto combination TFT)
    200psi Pump Discharge
    0 elevation change

    and the results will give you that you can do that through:
    161' of 1.75" rubber lined hose (you know, the old stuff)
    260' of 1.75" Angus Hi Combat
    238' of 1.75" Ponn Supreme

    Round off a bit -- you could do that flow with a 100psi nozzle through 150' of traditional fire hose, or 250' of better quality fire hose.

    The spreadsheet is handy for doing "planning" calculations, and shows the dramatic difference between quality of fire hose and performance. It's not a bad idea to actually pull a line off your truck and actually see how much you flow through your actual setup since that includes your pump plumbing, actual hose, actual nozzles. If the numbers are way lower than the spreadsheet, start looking for restrictions in the plumbing, delamination of the hose liner, and clogs in the nozzle or other such obstructions/restrictions.

    Anybody that doesn't have Excel and has a specific situation, let me know and I'll run the calculation.

    Give me the following
    GPM desired
    Pump Discharge Pressure
    Nozzle Pressure*
    Elevation Gain/Loss (I assume 0 unless specified)

    and I can post back the lengths of various lines that can support those flows.

    *Nozzle Pressure: This can also be the incoming pressure if calculation supply lines.
    Common Nozzle or Incoming pressures are:
    20psi incoming supply line
    50psi smoothbore handlines, some low-pressure fogs
    75psi low pressure automatics
    80psi fixed master stream smoothbores
    100psi automatics & other fog nozzles

    Those are just rules-of-thumb. We often take incoming supply line pressures down to 5 or 10psi (no sense leaving water in the hose!), and I've seen smoothbore master streams running over 120psi!

    Matt

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    "Does any one have any downloadable friction loss charts"

    Email me if you're looking for LDH FL stats - I've got a couple of spreadsheets you might want to take a look at. CLanger@firehousemail.com


    "I've seen smoothbore master streams running over 120psi!"

    We had ours running at 140 and 175 today.

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    Hey fellas,
    Can you guys tell me what the formula is for reaction force, and for GPM flow through a solid bore nozzle? Or are these just determined by field study?

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    Can you guys tell me what the formula is for reaction force, and for GPM flow through a solid bore nozzle? Or are these just determined by field study

    Yes.

    The physics to determine flow and reaction force are pretty basic, but involve several calculations figuring out things like mass, velocity, and acceleration.

    Years ago, some smart engineers good with math made this simplified formulas that remove most of the steps but give you the end result:

    Nozzle Reaction (Smoothbore) is 1.57 x (Diameter of nozzle squared) x (Nozzle pressure in PSI)

    Flow of a smoothbore is 29.71 x (Diameter of nozzle squared) x (Square root of Nozzle Pressure)

    Since even the simplified formulas are still kinda tough (what is the square root of 50psi anyways?), there's pre-made charts you can consult (or spreadsheets like mine above).

    It's good do both Charts and Field Study.

    The Charts tell you what you should be doing. If you then go out and measure and realize you're not close to what the charts say, you can start looking for things like bad hose, clogged nozzles & strainers, closed valves, or other obstructions.

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    Is there any other valuable formulas you could give me? Flow, reaction of a TFT Automatic? A Fog? Anything else?

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