1. #1
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Conn.
    Posts
    73

    Default Help with changing to 24 hr schedule

    Brothers, I have just come from another raging coffee table debate about changing to a 24 on 72 off work schedule. We currently work 3 days, 3 off, 3 nights, 3 off, and there is a movement among many of the members to switch to 24's We have many questions. For instance, how does vacation work? We can use 1 day at a time, any time, as long as you put in for it 24 hours ahead of the start of the shift. So you can take off your middle day, or whatever, and it will cost you one vacation day. How does that work in a 24 hour schedule? If you want the whole 24 off, does it cost you 2 days? Can you split the shift off? Use just 1 and work your day or night only? What about sick time? 2 sick days charged if you are off the whole 24? The brothers have many questions. We are asking other locals in the area how they work this schedule, but I came here to get some quick and dirty answers. Our vacation policy is very liberal, as you can see. We don't have to use our vacation in blocks of "weeks", as some other depts. do. We can use just one day here, one day there, as long as it can be hired, which is never a problem. Also, we are at minimum manpower, all the time, 22 on duty. Which is to say, we are never over the minimum unless ther has been a hiring error. You can e-mail me direct with any further questions, or answer here in the forum, I am just looking for some quick facts so I have some ammunition for my return to the battlefield, I mean the kitchen table. Thanks, fellas (and ladies).
    Leroy140 Fairfield, CT Local 1426

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    DaSharkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Posts
    4,713

    Default

    I have worked 2 different 24 hour schedules. I have worked 24 / 72 and 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, and 5 off. The latter is the better of the 2. The other option I have heard is 24 on, 48 off, 24 on, 4 off. Most places still split up OT shifts, sick time, vacation time into the 10 and 14 hour shifts.

    In any case, of you want the whole 24 hours off you have take 2 days of vacation, sick time or personal time. Swaps are also taken in 10 and 14 hour blocks.

    As for time off, the 1 on, 1 off, 1 on, 5 off allows for 13 days off for 1 week's vacation, 21 days off for 2 weeks.

    The 1 on, 2 off, 1 on, 4 off allows for 12 days and the 24 / 72 allows for 11 days.

    Most places do use less sick time when they switch to 24's for whatever reason.

    Also, depending upon how busy you are should be taken into consideration. If you are very busy for a 24 hour period, you should look into the 24/48/24/96 schedule. By busy I mean 15 - 20 calls per company in a 24 hour shift becuase your guys will be beat if they are out straight all teh time on the first day on.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    631

    Default

    I work for a federal department. We currently work a 24 on 48 off. Annual and sick leave is based on hours rather than days. I get 13 hours per two week pay period of annual leave and 7 hours of sick leave. This is more hours than a 40 hour week person earns. One day off is 24 hours of leave time, however you are actually off for 5 days for the one day of leave. The 40 hour week people are charged leave by hours also. One day of leave is 8 hours.

    You are only charged for hours used. If you take 4 hours for for a doctor's appointment, you are charged four hours sick leave.
    If you decide to go to a 24 hour shift, you need to have all the details agreed to in writing with your employer. If your dept is union, they should be able to work out the necessary changes.

  4. #4
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Northern Ohio
    Posts
    15

    Default

    Where I am at, we work 24 on and 48 off. We receive 12 sick days a year and vacation depends on time of service. After one full year of service we get 11 vacation days, and one personal day. If sick days are not used the previous year, you get three extra vacation days the following year. At the 6th, 14th, 18th years you get extra vaction days. In order to prevent overtime during an FLSA period, we get a "Kelly Day" every three weeks. My day is Wednesday, which means every Wednesday that my platoon is scheduled, I am off. All of our time is related to the whole 24 hour shift. One sick day is a 24 hour shift. The same goes for vacation days. The only time we can split up a shift is when we are on overtime and trading time. Then we can split the shift however we want. Our minimum manning is only 12, and makes things easier than your 22 I would imagine. But I like our system pretty well. I am sure that whatever you guys decide to do will take some adjusting. I would be curious to see what you guys decide to do so please keep us informed!

  5. #5
    Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    30

    Cool

    First of all,you guys got it made.We work 24 on,48 off=56 hours per week.No kelly days,just 24-48,365/year.I'd give up alot for even a work reduction to a 53 hour week!!!!!I'm assuming you'd have to bargain any change with your city.You would have to take your vacation time,sick time,paid holidays,and convert them to a 24 hour work day.The number of vacation days you have now,would have to be broken down into the total number of weeks off in a year,so you'd bargain for the same amount of time off.Same with sick time.You'd might lose some flexibility to what you have now,but you wouldn't need it.Our vacation time and sick time must be taken as 24 hours(no splitting)and during "prime time"(summer and Christmas),we must take them in 5 day blocks.Which translates into a 17 day vacation slot.The only time we can split time is for comp.time.Why would you want to split a day anyway?Taking one day off in a 24-72 would give you 7 days off in a row!And when you translate that time it would equal a 10 or a 14 hour work day that you'd take off now.
    We would hate working 10-14's,your always at work.If we get pounded now having a busy 24,we only can recoop for 2 days,not 3.We rely on trades to get a specific date or dates off.Trading with a 24-72 would be sweet.I know alot of guys who would die for a 24-72!

  6. #6
    Forum Member
    DaSharkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Posts
    4,713

    Default

    4iron,

    As for splitting a shift, you may not need to take off teh whole 24 or need to go out at night with the family. Having to blow 24 hours at once is rediculous, especially if you only need a few hours.

    You brought up a good point. Leroy, pay attention here. Make sure, that if you do switch, you can take vacation hours / personal time in hours. That way, if you have school or a doctor's appointment you can go to it and only have to take a few hours off and not have to get a swap for the whole shift.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  7. #7
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Conn.
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Brothers, your replies are welcome. We would probably not go by hours, as we don't have that now. But, we can arrange a "stand-by" for up to 4 hours of a shift, and it can be any time during the shift, as well, Example, guy comes in at 1000 for you and you come back at 1400, that kind of thing. So if you had a morning Dr. appt, you gotta be in by noon, or had to teach a class at night, as long as you are in by 10, you are golden. Stand-bys are not a problem, because they are no-cost to the town. We certainly have a lot to get down before we attempt to make this go, and all your help has been appreciated. If we can just break down some of the old-timers......I mean wise, battle tested senior veteran mentor type firefighters....

    Roy
    Leroy140 Fairfield, CT Local 1426

  8. #8
    Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    30

    Cool

    Let me clarify myself.Depending on where you're from and the system you use,there are a number of ways to approach/use the "trading system".As Leroy mentioned,"standby time"is a type of trade for us.If I need a 1 hour to 24 hour time slot filled for say a Dr.'s appointment,I simply call a guy in advance to cover my time.I will in turn "repay"the time to that person later.The other option we have is using comp.time,if manpower allows.Because we work 56 hours/week(24 on 48 off),we rely heavy on trades.It's the only way we can get a true weekend off.

    As far as selling the new shift to the older guys Leroy,GOOD LUCK!We've been trying to change our shift to a "California"plan ie:w-o-w-o-w-o-o-o-o,for some time.The loudest objections come from the closed minded vets who have worked this shift for 20+ years.They act like the world would come to an end if we changed shifts!

    In any case,if you do change,make sure your contract language is clear.Make sure you don't lose any time that you have now.Good luck.

  9. #9
    Forum Member
    DaSharkie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Posts
    4,713

    Default

    "The loudest objections come from the closed minded vets who have worked this shift for 20+ years. They act like the world would come to an end if we changed shifts!"

    4 Iron, don't you know that change in the fire service is not a good thing. A lot of departments here in New England can't get things changed to a 24 hour schedule because a lot of the older guys think 24s are bad and they'll end up getting screwed out of something or don't want to be away from the family for 24 hours straight.

    In either case, you could always try a 3 or 6 month trial of the new shifts and vote again at the end of the trial to see who wants to switch back. A word to the wise, a lot of guys will still say that they don't want them but when you count the votes, you'd be amazed at the number of converts to the schedule.
    Last edited by DaSharkie; 03-09-2002 at 06:27 PM.
    "Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like." Will Rogers

    The borrower is slave to the lender. Proverbs 22:7 - Debt free since 10/5/2009.

    "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." - New York Judge Gideon Tucker

    "As Americans we must always remember that we all have a common enemy, an enemy that is dangerous, powerful and relentless. I refer, of course, to the federal government." - Dave Barry

    www.daveramsey.com www.clarkhoward.com www.heritage.org

  10. #10
    Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    30

    Cool

    Sharkie,It's amazing we don't have horses pulling our steam engines anymore!Speaking of "test trials"with work shifts.A few years ago a neighboring dept.changed from the Chicago work schedule(w-oo-w-oo...)to the California shift(w-o-w-o-w-o-o-o-o).It barely passed the union vote,with the understanding it was a 1 year trial program.After the year was done,over 95% of the firefighters voted to stay on the Cal.plan.Most people who have switched or have worked both schedules,prefer the California schedule.Like the old saying goes...TRY IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT!

    And as for the guys who claim they're away from their families too much,POPPYCOCK!A 40 hour work week is a 40 hour work week,period.Furthermore,with a 24 schedule or a 10-14,firefighters are still sleeping in the firehouse!With a 24-72 you get more off time going to your kids baseball games.Figuare it out.With the 10-14:you'll work(months will vary but,)9-day shifts,7-night shifts,15-off days.With the 24 and the same calculated month,you work 8-days,off-23!A no brainer.You lose 1 night per month not sleeping in your bed at home,but have 8 extra days you don't have to go to work at all.A double no brainer!!!!

  11. #11
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Drifting on a raft in the Carribean Ocean listening to Buffet.
    Posts
    222

    Default

    We have two main shifts where I work. The day work schedule, 12 hour days with a Kelly day off rotating each week: Monday this week Tuesday next week and so on. Each Friday you are off you have Monday off as well. It is a nice four day weekend. The other shift is 24/48 with a single Kelly day after working 7 days, and then a double Kelly day about every six months. The single Kelly gives you a five day break and the double an 8 day break.
    As far as leave goes we base it on hours of work and not days. If you work 24 hours and want that day off you take 24 hours of leave. The same goes for the 12 hour shifts. Each person earns 5.12 hours of leave each pay day, every two weeks. I think the more years you have in the department the more hours you get each pay period. I think its after like 15 years or something.
    Matt

  12. #12
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Watchung, NJ USA
    Posts
    88

    Default 24/72

    The 24/72 is the way to go. It allows for quality time at home with the family and is a win/win for the municpality.

    Even if you have a busy 24, with the 24/72's, you can come home and and sleep all day and still have 2 more days and nights to do as you please. With the 24on/24off/24on/96off if you have a busy 24, the 24 off is a wasted day if you come home and snooze all day and then you have to go back and do it all over again.

    As far as vacations we have 4 straight 24 hour shifts off which comes out to 19 straight days off(we get 3 vacations a year). We used to work 2 10's/off 48/ 2 14's/ off 72. Two cycles of this shift would constitute a vacation period, which would mean 19 straight days off so there was nothing gained or lost.

    As far as sick time, we have unlimited sick time so we are not charged anything. My guess is if we had limited sick time it would count as 2 days off.

    AS far as time due days or personal days, you have to use 2 of them to get a 24 off. We can split days off...I can take the first 10 off or the last 14 off.

    We went to 24/72's in January of 1998 and it has been a win for the city. Sick time is down which means overtime is down.
    Kevin M. Fitzhenry
    Captain, Rescue Company 1
    City of Bayonne (NJ) Fire Department

  13. #13
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Posts
    35

    Default

    First of all, you need to convert everything to hours instead of days, nobody will go day for a day. That includes personal time, vacation and sick, comp time should already be in hours. You can then take you time off and that should be 24 hours at a clip, if you have in your contract you can take three weeks off in a row (three three day shifts) that works out to 96 hours in a row so you convert that to hours. The shift is worked in a split 10 hour day and 14 hour night for overtime if that applies. If you just ride short a man(which a lot of departments do) you have nothing to worry about. Good luck with you new shift, be safe my brother.

  14. #14
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Dec 1998
    Posts
    631

    Default

    Go with hours for time off. If your local government balks at converting, ask if other 40 hr week employees have to take 8 hours for a 2 hour Dr. appointment. If they are only charged for hours used then so should you. Alternative; Request that 40 hr people be charged full days for any time off. That should make it interesting.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register