Why register? ...To Enhance Your Experience
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21
  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    13

    Default Help with B-Post drop down problem

    This afternoon while performing a B-Post drop down, our crew ran into the problem of our own cribbing preventing us from performing the task to completion, we ended up just cutting the b-post completely off and removing both the front and rear doors and the b-post as a whole. While the result was the same, as access was granted, after summizing the scenario we all concluded that it would have been easier, and somewhat faster to have just removed the front door and the roof as a whole. Any advice on the positioning of the cribbing during a b-post drop down would be helpful...as I am aware that this is becoming a popular technique. Thank you...ET
    etaylor


  2. #2
    Forum Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    F.L. CO,USA
    Posts
    107

  3. #3
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Mareeba, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    15

    Default

    Well it all depends on what stabilisation you were using. When we arrive on scene we make a decision as to whether we are taking a side out or a roof removal or both. If we are doing any work on the sides we do not use step chocks at all. We build cribbing in a six point method, behind the front wheels, in front of the back wheels and then under the B pillars, if possible. We normally try to spread the back door off first, cut the seta belts and then put a relief cut in the base of the B pillar, then spread the B pillar out. This stops the top of the B pillar from pushing out towards the rescuer. Once the base of the B pillar has been pushed off, we then cut the top of the B pillar and open the whole side on the front hinges, if possible. If not you can spread or cut the front hinges as well. Always check the inside of the B pillar at the base and top for seat belt pre-tensioners. When building your cribbing keep it below the level of the vehicle and as far under as possible so it is not kicked or moved, always check and recheck stabilisation when working on the vehicle.
    Hope this helps, if I can dig up some pictures I will post them as well.
    D. Camp

  4. #4
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Sanford NC
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Is there another common name for this B-post drop down?
    I am just not comprehending this one at all

  5. #5
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Go to the link provided by eyecue underneath my original post. As far as I know the technique is commonly known as the b-post drop down, or b-post blow out. ET
    etaylor

  6. #6
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    I've also heard it called a "blitz" before.....

  7. #7
    Forum Member firefighter26's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Sooke, B.C.
    Posts
    945

    Default

    I guess I would have to see exactly how you cribbed the vehicle and how the cribbing got in the way. As previously posted, if we decide that we need to take the B post and side wall then we go with the classic "6 point" system as pointed out.

    I am assuming that this "dropping the B post" is what we, in my department, call "folding the sidewall..." AKA
    - removing the front door at the hinges on the "A" post
    - removing the rear door at the pin on the "C" post
    - cutting the "B" up high and folding it down like a tailgate (we used to call it tailgating the sidewall, but got away from it.. decided it was best to leave out the tailgate part to lessen the likelihood of confusion concerning vehicle terminology).

    If you took the entire sidewall away, I wouldn't complain. For us, we usually take that extra step just to get it out of the action circle and to remove it as a tripping hazard (the last thing you want to do is trip while you are bringing someone out on a board..). In most cases it is only a matter of a minute or less.

    You wouldn't happen to have any pictures of this cribbing problem would you?
    "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

  8. #8
    FIGJAM lutan1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    I come from The Land Down Under!
    Posts
    1,833

    Question

    Now I'm really confused!

    If you look at the link to the Hurst PDF document that eyecue has posted, it shows the doors and B pillar being folded forward. It's a great technique and it works well in most cases. With regards to stabilisation, we tend to steer clear of step chocks and large bulky stabilisation pieces on the side of the car we are predominantly going to be working on. (Hurst call this a fifth door conversion, which is what I call it, some people call it a third door conversion which IT ISN'T. A third door conversion is done on a two door car to allow access to the rear seat casualties.)

    On the other hand, I always thought the B pillar fold down was done by cutting the top of the B pillar and whatever doors may be attached to it and folding them down towards the ground. We've tried this in training and on scene at accidents and the only thing I see that it creates is a trip hazard!
    It gets in the way for everyone working around the car and casualty. Don't fold down- get rid of it!

    To Etaylor, if you have photos of the technique you are trying to perform, then see if you can get them posted, because I'm getting confused by the different names being used and techniques being described....
    Last edited by lutan1; 03-16-2002 at 11:13 PM.
    Luke

  9. #9
    Forum Member firefighter26's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Sooke, B.C.
    Posts
    945

    Default

    I got your back Lutan, I know what you mean... everyone has a name for it...

    I believe that your "5th door conversion" is essentially what we call "folding the sidewall." The sidewall (made up of the forward door, B post, and rear door) is basically folded down (I described ours in more detail above).

    I agree with you in the sense that it is a huge tripping hazard, which is why we opt to remove the entire sidewall instead. Like I said it above, it only takes less then a minute or so to do and it increases our ability to work in the area without tripping over things.

    Further to that, you are bang on with the third door conversion... another department close to us used to call it that until we had them up for a demo and actually showed them what a third door conversion was.

    I guess these names are almost regional.
    "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

  10. #10
    Forum Member firenresq77's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    5,213

    Default

    I believe etaylor is trying to describe the fold down. IMHO, I think it is quicker and easier to do what we call the blitz, which is what is shown on the Hurst site. It all boils down to personal preference and what you are most comfortable doing. What works for some, does not work for all.....

  11. #11
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    13

    Default

    I appreciate all of the response, from what I can gather, and the scenarios in which I have performed this technique, ( Drop Down, Blow Out, Blitz, etc etc, ) My personal preferance is to have it completely out of the way....as many of you have concluded...I will say that I am not a huge proponet of this manuver, I feel that the move offers some well deserved praise, I just feel that other techniques are less time consumming and acheive adequate to similar results. Keep up the good work...ET
    etaylor

  12. #12
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Sanford NC
    Posts
    16

    Default

    I understand now
    Thank you all for your help in instructing me on this subject

    I got an interesting one
    Anybody explain how a 3rd door conversion works? On a 2 door car of course
    http://www.lcrs.8m.com

    P.C.B.H.

  13. #13
    Forum Member firefighter26's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Sooke, B.C.
    Posts
    945

    Default Third Door Conversion

    I thought someone would ask this... funny how you go months and months without hearing or talking about something, then in one short week it comes up a dozen times... by this I mean we showed some newbies how to do a third door conversion last Thursday and then over the weekend we preformed one in a scenario our extrication team was playing with...

    The object behind a third door conversion is to gain access to the rear seat of a two door vehicle. Because it is a two door, you are limited to the ways you can get in. A third door is when you cut the sidwall of the vehicle away, leaving a hole as if there was a door. This can best be done by using the rear window behind, which most two door vehicles have. How we do ours, is we use our recip saw, or sawzall, starting as far back on the mentioned window as possible, cut straight down to the frame rail (or where the frame rail would be). From there, assuming that the door has already been displaced, we continue to cut parallel to the "frame rail" until reaching the cut we just made. Also, the "B" post should be cut at the top of the roof. When this is all done, it effectively leaves a hole as if you had displaced a rear door. We have found that a normal 9 inch recip saw blade will cut through both the outer and inner sheet metal of the sidewall on most vehicles, which is good, because I hate cutting twice. Cutting through the bottom of the "B" post, and up high on the "B" post can really slow the recip saw down because of the extra material in the post at those positions, which is why we will often take them out with the Combi-tool after the door is displaced and while someone can be working on the actual cutting of the third door. I have also done this with an air chisel, but it is loud, not as quick as the recip saw (and in this business it is all about time) and you also have to cut the outside and inside sheet metal separate. But like I said, in this post I believe, that there are many ways to get something done.

    It is to bad I wasn't thinking, as we had two vehicles that we did this to in our training area and they would have made for great pictures (pictures speak a thousand words). However, they were removed this morning.

    I will never claim to be an expert on anything, and I am interested in what other people do, so if it sounds like you do something differently, or I am way off the mark, reply and let me know... I always look forward to a good discussion and hearing the opinions of others.
    "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

  14. #14
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Pt. Beach, NJ
    Posts
    10,570

    Default

    We have done a "modified" 3rd door from what firefighter26 offers, although his sounds interesting to try on a drill.

    We use our cutters and make a vertical relief cut as close to the C post as we can, we then make a horizontal relief cut as low as we can get by the floor board under the window. We then put our spreader from the top corner of the panel and the roof and spread. This forces the whole panel out from the top away from anyone in the rear. It does not give as much space as what firefighter26 methods seems to, but it's plenty for removing someone and limits (to a degree) the exposed rough edges.

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 1999
    Location
    Puyallup, Wa.
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Hey Bones and FF26, here's another slightly different technique for the 3rd door conversion using only hydraulics. With your spreader, open the tips and vertically squeeze the panel just ahead of the C post( same location you cut, Bones)to make a hinge point( try to crush at least a 12 in. section). At the same time your cutter can sever the B post at the roof line and make a relief cut at the base of the rear quarter panel(what you're trying to remove). Now place your spreader at the rocker just ahead of the B post and open the jaws. Your bottom tip needs to find a good point to push off of, and try to place your top spreader tip on the Nader pin assembly. With cribbing under the location of your bottom tip, the whole section normally folds back along the area you crushed with the bottom edge ripping nicely. The last several times doing a 3rd door this way have worked great, I'll see if I can find some photos to email you.

  16. #16
    Forum Member firefighter26's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Sooke, B.C.
    Posts
    945

    Default

    Bones, Kbud, those are both interesting methods. I would be really interested in seeing some pictures (hint hint, if anyone has any). My department runs with combie-tools, so using a hydraulic spreader to displace the sidewall after making relief cuts, despite all the cars I have cut up, is something new to think about. Later this year we will be picking up a dedicated spreader and cutter to compliment our combie-tools, and I know this will be one of the first scenarios I will set up to try.
    "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

  17. #17
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    TENNESSEE
    Posts
    29

    Default

    I noticed where someone was talking about cribbing getting in the way. I just got back from a class taught by Dwight Clark, and if any of you read Fire Rescue magazine, you know this guy is real deal when it comes to extrication. He said if you think that you are going to be cutting a B post or any post for that matter, crib so that once in place, it does not have to be moved or will not interfere with your cutting. And by this, there are 2 places that could be cribbed, either from the front of the tires or from the rear. Then deflate those tires. Stabilize that bad boy!!!!!!!

    I do not know if this will help, probably not, but it might. Everyone be safe and have a good day.
    Last edited by kfd26710; 03-21-2002 at 01:43 PM.
    IAFF Local 2270

  18. #18
    Forum Member firefighter26's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Sooke, B.C.
    Posts
    945

    Default

    A four point cribbing layout such as yours will stabilize a vehicle very well. However, most of todays vehicles are of uni-body construction. While very strong, it does not have the advantages of a full frame vehicle once you start to removed doors etc. Cribbing at the front wheels and from the rear will work on a full framed vehicle and you can pretty much displace anything you want and the vehicle maintains its structural integrity. With a uni-body, the structural integrity (by this I mean the ridgedness and strength of the vehicle) relies on all parts of the vehicle:
    doors, glass, windshield, roof, you name it, it helps hold it together. What I am saying is that as soon as you start taking doors etc, the car will actually start to sag, which is bad news for your interior trying to maintain C-spine. A good way to avoid this? 6 point cribbing. Front, middle and rear. Takes longer, and yes, the middle blocks might get in your way, but if you know they are there then you can work around them so they do not become a problem or nuisance.

    As for moving cribbing... once the vehicle is dropped onto them (so to speak) you should not be moving them, you should not even be able to move them (unless your scenario warrants that)
    "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

  19. #19
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    13

    Default

    I believe that is what I was trying to relay when starting this post, it is SOP for most departments to do the four point(behind front wheels and in front of rear) initially, when I speak of the cribbing getting in the way I am referring to exactly what FF26 just said, placing the cribbing under the b-post to give stability during a b-post drop etc. In the situation I was referring to in the beggining that is the cribbing that got in the way, under the b-post, the cribbing acted just as it should, provided stability, almost too much in fact, what I mean is, when it was time to lay down the b-post and the doors as a whole, the cribbing underneath the b-post would not allow the b-post to drop completely, keep in mind this was not a unibody type vehicle. I suppose it is possible we had too much sticking out and maybe should have placed it further under the post itself. Anyway, that is how we learn. ET
    etaylor

  20. #20
    MembersZone Subscriber
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    WI
    Posts
    188

    Default

    re: 3rd door conversion

    Have you ever noticed that whenever doing a 3rd door conversion, it is to extricate a person whose size alone makes you wonder how they got in the back in the first place?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts