Closed Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. #1
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default 9/11 and Political Correctness

    It has taken much thought for me to decide to write this small piece. I have many friends who look at these boards religiously and I know that by my comments, they are apt to flee the hills. I write this in all humility with respect for you all.

    9/11/01 was a watershed event in this nation's history. It is difficult for those souls who piece together history to come up with apt comparisons, but most have agreed on Pearl Harbor being suitable. I agree that it is comparable in the barbarism shown by those who perpetrated the attacks. However, there are notable differences that are many and best left for a different time. The brothers in the FDNY have suffered egregiously with the loss of so many good and honorable men. My heart and soul bleeds for them.

    I am not a person who "gets off" on the macabre scene shown on television or in the magazines. While history needs to be recorded, it is too painful to think of the emotional toll on those suffering. However, comments made on these forums by two members of the FDNY have been off based and not representative of many in the FDNY or the fire service.

    The FDNY is a storied department whose exploits are well know and documented. In fact I have always had, and still do have, a deep respect for all those in the city. In the first few months after the tragedy, I agreed that little should be said in these forums about what happened. However now, six months removed, it is time for "discussion" to begin, not only among the FDNY, but also among the fire service. Departments across the country have much to learn about an incident so large that even by the FDNY's own admission, was beyond the scope of their control. How can this be done?

    First and foremost, Monday morning quarterbacks should stay in their chairs. People who can discuss the events surrounding 9-11 with objectivity should be encouraged to do so. Just because you are not a member of the FDNY does not, in anyway, mean that you should not talk about it. If a few members come on here and say different, so be it. It is their right to disagree and our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines are protecting their right to do so. Any member of the fire service is also protected by these same heroes and has the right to voice their opinion.

    Will there be several of those in the fire service spout off about what they know not? Yes. It is a fact that we live with daily. However the longer time elapses the more you "rumors" you hear and when the dam bursts there will be a flood of misinformation. It is better for good men to discuss it objectively rather than wait for innuendo to take over.

    Why are so many unwilling to start the conversation? Why do many follow blindly the two members of these forums who are from the FDNY about what should be said? That is a good question. A modern social philosopher has said about the tobacco fight "We care more about lungs than minds". To change the quote just a touch, "we care more about feelings than fact or discourse". I have the pleasure of knowing a tremendous number of FDNY firefighters in all the boroughs except Staten Island. I have talked with them and they feel that what has been said on these boards is not indicative of what the mood is among them. While it is true that brothers have not yet come home, the discussion needs to begin before the nitwits have a chance to yell "Cover-up" and tear the department and the fire service apart with false information and innuendo. It WILL occur. It is better to discuss it as we all here are good men. We have shown that by restraint. Let us show it again by our openness. "Do not blindly follow any mortal person or thought least you become a mere shell of a man". God Bless America

  2. #2
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    Boxalarm...

    Eloquently stated!!!
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  3. #3
    Forum Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    brooklyn new york
    Posts
    79

    Default

    So what is it that you need to say. What is so compelling. Two planes slammed into two buildings. The buildings fell down. Simple, right. You can talk all you want about steel strength, fuel load, radios, tactics,etc.etc.etc...till your blue in the face and it will not change the outcome. 343 firemen, 39 PAPD, 23 NYPD, and 8 EMS workers got murdered along with thousands of civilians. If it happened again today would things come out different. I don't know, but I do know that the members of my company would go into that building again and try to save as many people as posible.

    robert galione
    fdny
    rescue 2

  4. #4
    Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    FDNY
    Posts
    59

    Default

    Through an intuitive leap on my part, I have assumed that I am one of the aforementioned "two FDNY members" who are addressed by the author of this thread. I arrived at this assumption because of his post in the "for those of you ready for the CBS tape" thread, in which he addressed me directly.

    In that thread, the author gave an impassioned speech to me, that could most accurately be described as the traditional, "I'm not going to be bullied anymore" declaration by someone that has been picked on for an extended period by an overbearing force. In that speech, he said some things to me personally that I feel need addressing.

    In this thread, he has taken his case to the people. Rather than launching further personal attacks, he raises the issue of the need for a national dialogue on the WTC attacks, and that each of you should begin this discussion without fear of the two FDNY bullies.

    I will gladly discuss and re-state my opinions on many of these WTC related issues,(the "critique of the incident, the CBS tape etc.), at any time with anyone. It happens in the kitchen of every FDNY firehouse on a daily basis. This post, however, will be one in which I deal with the personal issues that the author has chosen to raise.

    Due to the feelings I have towards this message, I will suspend a few of the personal guidelines I normally follow when I post here. I will not make light of anything in a wise-*** manner, and I will speak about myself and my experiences... using the normally inappropriate pronoun, I.

    In his other message, the author accuses me, and presumably the other unkown FDNY bully, of trying to speak for all 12,000+ members of my job. He further asserts that I have "stifled debate" on these boards by posturing myself as "high and mighty" and "a brothers father" rather than a brother. He claims that many of you are "impressionable" and that you want to state your opinions on FDNY related subjects, but are afraid to do so because of my actions. The good news for all of you is that he further states that "this all ends now."

    He bases his firm declarations on his "tremendous number of brothers" from the FDNY. Apparently, he called all of these members and polled the as to their opinions on subjects that we discuss here. To me, this seems to be a slight waste of time. If he wanted a different view on these issues than the ones I hold, all he needed to do was read these forums. I have disagreed with more than one FDNY brother here, on more than one occasion.

    First off, the assertion that people are somehow bullied into submission and refrain from stating their opinions is ridiculous. Several people in the very thread he attacked me in stated their contrary opinions quite clearly. I have not ever, told anyone that they had to think the way that I think and have never claimed to speak for every brother in this job. In the very thread that he launched his attack in, I made the statement that I could not speak for all 12,000... that many of them probably felt the exact opposite as I.

    Many times, I have disagreed with FDNY members and other firefighters here. Each time, it was done in a manner that shows my respect for them and their contributions to our job. Smart-*** and wise-cracking, certainly... I will not argue that. But I have NEVER, told anyone that they were not entitled to their opinion. Apparently, the author does not see fit to treat me with the same respect.

    By posturing himself as an advocate for the oppressed, and questioning my right to speak, he has opened himself up for questioning as well.

    I don't know this person, so I will refrain from the type of personal attack he employed. But first and foremost I will question his authority or entitlement to speak intelligently on me or any of my brothers in this job. Because he knows "a tremendous amount" of FDNY members? That gives him the authority to question the integrity of FDNY members that post here?

    I will not speak in terms of "we" today, I will speak in terms of "I". I am a member of the FDNY. I live in NYC. I have dedicated my entire adult life to this job. I have reaped the benefits and I have paid the costs. I love the brothers here as much as I have ever loved anyone... save my parents, brothers, wife and girls.

    I have argued vehemently, with the brothers in my union, my Emeralds, my Holy Name, my sports teams, my neighboring companies and my own firehouse. I have thought them all crazy at one point or another, and certainly learning disabled for not seeing things my way. I have continued to love them when the dust cleared.

    I have not come to this board and described my personal WTC related losses or experiences. I have chosen not to spout my resume, as some sort of instant credibility or validation for my WTC related or general fire department related opinions. I have not done this because for as personal as my feelings or losses are, they are THOUSANDS of similiar or worse stories in my job. I choose to honor my brothers, living and dead, by keeping my personal woes to myself.

    I speak here to represent MY feelings and to have MY voice heard. Unlike the author, I don't have any friends on these forums. I don't view them as a social setting. I come here to see a view of the fire department that a man that has rarely left NYC, except on vacation, doesn't get. Conversely, I hope some members here can get the opinion of an FDNY member on FDNY issues, especially if they don't have the priviledge of knowing a "tremendous amount" of FDNY members, as some purportedly do.

    Opinions about this job should come from our members, not from buffs, hangers-on and "friends". They should hear what we are living, not what someone was told or what someone saw on the Discovery Channel. The blessing is that with 12,000 brothers in this job, the people that post here get to see differing opinions from a variety of us... all on this board. They even get to hear from retired brothers and their unique perspectives on current events.

    When I feel strongly about something, I speak. When I don't, I keep quiet. When I have knowledge or opinion on a subject that affects my job, I discuss it. I talk about NYC, not the Lairdsville situation or the staffing in Houston, because I don't know about them. If I don't know, I listen to the opinions of those who do. When I am wrong, I retract. When I offend, I apologize.

    There have been times where my brothers here have subtly told me to tone it down a little. There are times when they have come out strongly against my opinions, and told me to straighten my act out. These are merely extensions of what goes on in our kitchens everyday. I value my brothers opinions. I would be foolish to think we could agree on everything.

    But for an outsider, someone who hasn't walked in our shoes, to question me or any of my brothers, is way out of line. I speak because I've earned the right to do so. I live here, I work here, I live with the consequences of the events here, I don't read about them in the paper. I don't need a documentary to show me the courage of my brothers, I see it every day. I don't need CBS to appreciate the sadness and to respect the missing heros. I see them every time I close my eyes.

    I don't care how many friends you have, I don't care where they work, I don't care what they tell you. I've earned my rights. The author is a spectator. He comments on the opinions of others and formulates his thoughts on what he's told. I form mine on what I've lived. Is he entitled to form an opinion? Absolutely. Can he study and learn from the operations and losses here? Sure. But don't ever tell me what to say or not to say, don't ever tell me what is right or wrong, what needs to be talked about and what doesn't... because you don't know. The author speaks on the authority of men in my job, not on what he is living through. I can't help thinking that he sounds like a child who says "Well, my dad says that..."

    If my opinions or statements intimidate you, I'm sorry. Sometimes my passion for something can keep me from being easy to live with. If you don't want to hear them, don't read them. If you have constructive criticism, then give it to me as a gentleman and a fireman with an opinion. Don't question my right to speak, in manner that is disrespectful to me.

    I've lost friends here, just like everyone else. I've lost a family member, just like many. I've lived the cycle of dig, drink, work... dig, drink, work... just like everyone here has. I feel the guilt and question the twist of fate that kept me alive and took many others. I've damaged the relationships with the people I love most, because I don't handle these things in the best way. I've felt the despair of a situation that never improves. My life will never be the same, as with each of my brothers.

    I have not discussed these things previously, because I don't need your sympathy or your validation. I also do not belive that these experiences guarantee that I am right every time that I open my mouth. In the same way, I don't need your approval to speak or your critique of my views on MY job and MY life.

    Do these things make me special? No. This story is repeated in every firehouse in this town. But what it does is earn me the right to speak on FDNY and WTC related subjects, without the questioning of my rights by an outsider. If every other brother in this job disagrees with a particular opinion of mine, I am still entitled to voice it. If someone is going to convince me otherwise, it would certainly be someone that spoke to me as a gentleman would, not someone from another place and time who, feels that he can talk to me as if we grew up together, without the slightest idea of my life or my experiences.

  5. #5
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE
    E40FDNYL35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Malingering
    Posts
    3,644

    Default

    Originally posted by rescue2bob
    So what is it that you need to say. What is so compelling. Two planes slammed into two buildings. The buildings fell down. Simple, right. You can talk all you want about steel strength, fuel load, radios, tactics,etc.etc.etc...till your blue in the face and it will not change the outcome. 343 firemen, 39 PAPD, 23 NYPD, and 8 EMS workers got murdered along with thousands of civilians. If it happened again today would things come out different. I don't know, but I do know that the members of my company would go into that building again and try to save as many people as posible.
    Bob you put it so well. Thank you...

    We live with 911 everyday..... 6 months...who cares?? We are still digging for our friends. Thats what matters NOW.
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

  6. #6
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default

    South Bronx Said
    In that thread, the author gave an impassioned speech to me, that could most accurately be described as the traditional, "I'm not going to be bullied anymore" declaration by someone that has been picked on for an extended period by an overbearing force. In that speech, he said some things to me personally that I feel need addressing.
    Bully? Traditional? I have never stated that "I" was being bullied nor do I feel that way. However, if you see fit, through the intellectual exercise of believing what you assume, feel free to do so.

    In this thread, he has taken his case to the people. Rather than launching further personal attacks, he raises the issue of the need for a national dialogue on the WTC attacks, and that each of you should begin this discussion without fear of the two FDNY bullies.
    The people are what matter, not individuals who pursue the truth as they se it, without an objective point of view. Here, in eloquent terms, you make a good example. As I recall, and I do, I never used the term bully. If you feel somewhat slighted rest assured that you are, in no way, a bully. You are simply trying, as evidenced, to stifle debate on this "national" issue.



    In his other message, the author accuses me, and presumably the other unkown FDNY bully, of trying to speak for all 12,000+ members of my job. He further asserts that I have "stifled debate" on these boards by posturing myself as "high and mighty" and "a brothers father" rather than a brother. He claims that many of you are "impressionable" and that you want to state your opinions on FDNY related subjects, but are afraid to do so because of my actions. The good news for all of you is that he further states that "this all ends now."
    Not afraid to do so because of your actions. "Reluctant" to speak up because you, as again evidenced here, bring up the old and very tired argument that only FDNY firefighters should comment. People then refrain from what you fear both intellectually and professionally - a discourse on the entire event. You, by lack of self-confidence in your core beliefs, use the classic " I was there" so no one knows better. Have you learned anything from the MGM fire in 80? Probably not, in your estimation, because you were not there. Has any other place had an incident that you ever read about or studied or is it that you do not respect the other departments across the country?

    He bases his firm declarations on his "tremendous number of brothers" from the FDNY. Apparently, he called all of these members and polled the as to their opinions on subjects that we discuss here. To me, this seems to be a slight waste of time. If he wanted a different view on these issues than the ones I hold, all he needed to do was read these forums. I have disagreed with more than one FDNY brother here, on more than one occasion.
    A poll is not scientific if undertaken by an individual. Therefore, I have polled no one! To be accurate the majority of the Brothers I know have emailed or mentioned it to me. If you desire to know whom, this board can judge the validity of the aforementioned but is that a way to get a point across? I should think not. However, in your overly simplistic view of the fire service, as it pertains only to your department, you no doubt want argument. It is the last refuge of a foolhearted person. I HAVE read these forums and discussed, in detail, many, if not all, of the present arguments. Thus, I have formed an opinion based on a WIDE range of resources. I have read your statements many times over and they help foster an opine. The fact that you have disagreed with more than one brother on here is good. You should feel proud that you accept another’s opinion. Congrats.



    First off, the assertion that people are somehow bullied into submission and refrain from stating their opinions is ridiculous. Several people in the very thread he attacked me in stated their contrary opinions quite clearly. I have not ever, told anyone that they had to think the way that I think and have never claimed to speak for every brother in this job. In the very thread that he launched his attack in, I made the statement that I could not speak for all 12,000... that many of them probably felt the exact opposite as I.
    Again with the bullying. You are correct, as several have disagreed. I was one. However, I have agreed with you as well. I also did not state that you had ever told someone not to speak. Who would listen to that anyway? What I am saying is that you attack anyone wanting to bring up the subject. You have cited, ad nauseum, your view that only an FDNY member is capable of providing an account and analysis. Simply, you are, again, a victim of your own miscalculation. We are not just talking about the FDNY here. This is a national issue. Your departments’ future, tactics, etc. will be decided for you, not by you. I am talking about thoughtful firefighters who also do the job in other communities. You do care what they say, correct.

    Many times, I have disagreed with FDNY members and other firefighters here. Each time, it was done in a manner that shows my respect for them and their contributions to our job. Smart-*** and wise-cracking, certainly... I will not argue that. But I have NEVER, told anyone that they were not entitled to their opinion. Apparently, the author does not see fit to treat me with the same respect.
    Also a bold face...misstatement. I would defend to the death your right to speak. Would you not do the same for your brothers across America? I made the point that you are allowed to express your opinions due to the protection of our military. I also stated the same for everyone else. Again you restate "But I have NEVER, told anyone that they were not entitled to their opinion”. For the record, I have never said you have, have however, as explained, you attempt to stifle debate. All people are impressionable, including you and yours truly.

    By posturing himself as an advocate for the oppressed, and questioning my right to speak, he has opened himself up for questioning as well.
    An advocate for the oppressed? Questioning your right to speak? You know doubt would have made the Clinton spin team as a first rate spin artist. Again, I have said nothing about your right to speak. Quit trying to put the spin on it and debate the merits.

    I don't know this person, so I will refrain from the type of personal attack he employed. But first and foremost I will question his authority or entitlement to speak intelligently on me or any of my brothers in this job. Because he knows "a tremendous amount" of FDNY members? That gives him the authority to question the integrity of FDNY members that post here?
    Authority? Entitlement? Two large words overused by people simply unwilling to see the core issue. Because I know brothers there gives me "insight", Webster’s dictionary under I, and you posting to an open forum gives anyone the right to question integrity or opinions. Such is a free society.

    I will speak in terms of "I". I am a member of the FDNY. I live in NYC. I have dedicated my entire adult life to this job. I have reaped the benefits and I have paid the costs. I love the brothers here as much as I have ever loved anyone... save my parents, brothers, wife and girls.
    My respect for all of the above is intense. I would never question the above. You protect my family members alongside my family members. You, South Bronx, are to be respected for going in harms way. I salute the courage in you to do so. I can see the good in you, however you can not do the same.

    I have not come to this board and described my personal WTC related losses or experiences. I have chosen not to spout my resume, as some sort of instant credibility or validation for my WTC related or general fire department related opinions. I have not done this because for as personal as my feelings or losses are, they are THOUSANDS of similiar or worse stories in my job. I choose to honor my brothers, living and dead, by keeping my personal woes to myself.
    I have never said that you had. I do not see my resume up anywhere, do you? You cite personal reasons. Bravo to you for that. Keep that in mind as this debate continues.



    I speak here to represent MY feelings and to have MY voice heard. Unlike the author, I don't have any friends on these forums. I don't view them as a social setting. I come here to see a view of the fire department that a man that has rarely left NYC, except on vacation, doesn't get. Conversely, I hope some members here can get the opinion of an FDNY member on FDNY issues, especially if they don't have the priviledge of knowing a "tremendous amount" of FDNY members, as some purportedly do.
    You do have friends on this board. People support your opinions and would call themselves friends. As for a social setting, are you implying that others on here do view this as such? That begins to show your bias. Your last couples of sentences are incorrect. People will hear what people from the entire fire service have to say not just an FDNY member. You act as if no one else was there. You are not stating that, are you? As for me knowing people it was, as discourse often sets up, a foundation from which to speak on a critical issue. However, you spin it down to mere sand. I expected that. You provided it, lock, stock, and smoking barrel.

    Opinions about this job should come from our members, not from buffs, hangers-on and "friends". They should hear what we are living, not what someone was told or what someone saw on the Discovery Channel. The blessing is that with 12,000 brothers in this job, the people that post here get to see differing opinions from a variety of us... all on this board. They even get to hear from retired brothers and their unique perspectives on current events.
    Wow---your opening sentence would be a dream to close my argument on. You get to the root of the matter quickly. It is not you or yours alone to comment on. Fire service people from all departments and regions, who put themselves on the line, just as you do, have a right to speak. I can not speak for buffs, but you have just attacked many firefighters from around the country who travel to New York to see firsthand what goes on. I guess it is a shock to you that they may have opinions, based on their experiences. YOU want to control conversation to only members of your department. That is your belief, as stated here. You show disrespect to a great deal of people but you do not care.

    When I feel strongly about something, I speak. When I don't, I keep quiet. When I have knowledge or opinion on a subject that affects my job, I discuss it. I talk about NYC, not the Lairdsville situation or the staffing in Houston, because I don't know about them. If I don't know, I listen to the opinions of those who do. When I am wrong, I retract. When I offend, I apologize.
    Moreover, you hurt the entire fire service by not commenting, perhaps on specifics you are right, but overall all of our opinions matter. Oh, no need to apologize.

    But for an outsider, someone who hasn't walked in our shoes, to question me or any of my brothers, is way out of line. I speak because I've earned the right to do so. I live here, I work here, I live with the consequences of the events here, I don't read about them in the paper. I don't need a documentary to show me the courage of my brothers, I see it every day. I don't need CBS to appreciate the sadness and to respect the missing heros. I see them every time I close my eyes.
    Outsider? Are you as member of the IAFF? Have you seen the people who have traveled to attend funerals and memorial services? Are we not all brothers? You want to polarize the fire service. The fire service, those outsiders, has taken it upon themselves to help the brothers in New York. Is that out of line? If an outside firefighter visiting saw a member open a 2.5 on another member through a window, is he not sufficiently qualified to comment? You believe that no ones opinions matter but those who have walked in your shoes. Yet thousands of brothers across the country do the same job and call you brother. You are a scoundrel and the worst sort.

    I don't care how many friends you have, I don't care where they work, I don't care what they tell you. I've earned my rights. The author is a spectator. He comments on the opinions of others and formulates his thoughts on what he's told. I form mine on what I've lived. Is he entitled to form an opinion? Absolutely. Can he study and learn from the operations and losses here? Sure. But don't ever tell me what to say or not to say, don't ever tell me what is right or wrong, what needs to be talked about and what doesn't... because you don't know. The author speaks on the authority of men in my job, not on what he is living through. I can't help thinking that he sounds like a child who says "Well, my dad says that..."
    I formulate my comments on my experiences and the experiences of others with open minds. I formulate opinions based on evidence, which escapes you like common sense. Again, like a Clinton advisor, he goes back to "Don't tell me what to say...” When did I attemp to do that. His moral indignation supercedes his own incomplete philosophy, found on the tip of his tongue, instead of where philosophies usually reside. " I see your true colors shining through, I see your true colors"
    As for the comment about me being a child who calls on daddy - I had a father who died when I was eight months and grew up poor, raised by my mother. I am far from perfect and am no expert, nor do I pretend to be. However, I am man enough to use persuasive arguments, not idiotic statements. YOU went personal BROTHER. Nevertheless, I forgive you.

    If my opinions or statements intimidate you, I'm sorry.
    Intimidate? No Bronx, you are far from intimidating. You are hollow and no man fears a hollow person.

    I have not discussed these things previously, because I don't need your sympathy or your validation. I also do not belive that these experiences guarantee that I am right every time that I open my mouth. In the same way, I don't need your approval to speak or your critique of my views on MY job and MY life.
    Only a person seeking validation speaks of it, instead of allowing thoughtful discourse to be carried out.

    Do these things make me special? No. This story is repeated in every firehouse in this town. But what it does is earn me the right to speak on FDNY and WTC related subjects, without the questioning of my rights by an outsider. If every other brother in this job disagrees with a particular opinion of mine, I am still entitled to voice it. If someone is going to convince me otherwise, it would certainly be someone that spoke to me as a gentleman would, not someone from another place and time who, feels that he can talk to me as if we grew up together, without the slightest idea of my life or my experiences.
    Again with the questioning of rights? Define rights in the sense that you mean and provide explicit evidence of me trying to deny your rights. You sound like Al Sharpton.

    Here is the most ironic part Bronx. I did post in a thread that you posted too, but not out of an inclination to attack YOU. My thoughts were directed at others, but you jumped in. I am sorry about that. I am not trying to talk to you as if we grew up together, simply as a man.

    Great debate though. You made my point in one post.
    Last edited by JayTL; 03-11-2002 at 01:41 PM.

  7. #7
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default

    So what is it that you need to say. What is so compelling. Two planes slammed into two buildings. The buildings fell down. Simple, right. You can talk all you want about steel strength, fuel load, radios, tactics,etc.etc.etc...till your blue in the face and it will not change the outcome. 343 firemen, 39 PAPD, 23 NYPD, and 8 EMS workers got murdered along with thousands of civilians. If it happened again today would things come out different. I don't know, but I do know that the members of my company would go into that building again and try to save as many people as posible.
    Okay. Missing the entire point Bob, but at least you bring up how many feel. I, for one, appreciate it.

  8. #8
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE
    E40FDNYL35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Malingering
    Posts
    3,644

    Default

    Again, 6 months. EVERYDAY

    7 phone calls today from family members…
    Any news… My reply, NO sorry.
    Did you watch CBS…Yes…It was a very nice tribute…Yes it was
    Why did CBS not show it to us first?… I don’t know
    I miss him… I do too
    Do you think YOU will find my daddy? I hope so
    If we find him should we do a funeral?… I guess so
    We have to fill out the death certificate soon… Yah I know
    Call me as soon as you know anything… OK

    Tomorrow the same phone calls… Wednesday more of the same… and on and on
    Live our life for one day and you will know why we jump on some of these yahoos…sorry to ramble
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

  9. #9
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default

    Tomorrow the same phone calls… Wednesday more of the same… and on and on

    E40, My heart goes out to you as well as the hearts of millions around the country.

    My comments are not a condemnation of any tactics, etc. Nor do I blame you for defending the brothers. In fact it is honorable. Moreover, it shows why we need to be able to discuss it openly. My honest attempt is to start a rational discussion before "Yahoo's" jump on with ludicrous claims. My intentions are good and unwavering. This was a national disaster, just as the Hotel Vendome in Boston, the McDonalds in Houston, et al. Anytime a brother dies, it is a tragedy and it needs to be explored. I hope that people understand that this is not about feelings or politics, it is about discussion.

  10. #10
    MembersZone Subscriber
    E229Lt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    However, comments made on these forums by two members of the FDNY have been off based and not representative of many in the FDNY or the fire service.

    Spit it out man, which two?

    You're going on and on but it's hard to follow and/or comment with broad focus.

  11. #11
    Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    FDNY
    Posts
    59

    Default

    Nice try... gotta hand it to you. You are good. Its obvious what you are looking for here, and I have to say that you are damn good at trying to get it. We all appreciate a lively debate now and again. Sorry for "jumping in" but, after all, your post in the other thread did have my name on it.

    You're right, I can spin it when I want to spin it. I may have met my match though. Making me a member of the Clinton administration and likening me to the right reverand from Harlem all in one post is damn impressive. If you only knew the bristling of neck hairs when those names are mentioned, you would truly feel satisfaction that your arrow found its mark.

    I especially like the way you took the simile likening you to a child bragging about what his daddy said, and turned into a personal attack on you and your fathers untimely death. The old, "hey man... my mothers dead" line after someone told a "yo momma joke". Very nice work.

    Equally impressive is the way you took my defense of my desire to speak for the feelings and sensibilities of the members and families here, and turned it into the old "FDNY attitude" act. Talk about tired and "ad nauseum".

    Not once have I, nor have the other FDNY brothers here claimed that we were the sole authority on high-rise fires or terrorism. We have not said that we were the only ones in the country that have input or advice that could be valuable. Slide on over to the Fireground Tactics section of the forums and you will see FDNY members engaged in roundtable discussions with firemen from all over the country on a variety of different subjects. They, as well a I, value the opinions of others as they relate to the common threads of our job.

    Our assertion is that the timing of critiques and dialogues and ceremonies and documentaries is, at times, questionable. My last post dealt exclusively with my ability, and the ability of the other FDNY brothers, to speak on the feelings of my brothers and our families. I submit to you that we are the authority on the feelings of our families and the brothers in our houses. When I have spoken on the "core issue" before, it was solely from this perspective, never from the "FDNY is the sole firefighting authority" view.

    To paraphrase you, the time for the grieving process to stop for our family, will be decided by us, not for us.

    That is a sound strategy though... get the guys who aren't really paying attention to rally behind the "FDNY doesn't think we are qualified to speak" banner. Twist the conversation to show the people how the FDNY brother is insulting them. Go back through the forums, though, and show me where one of us has questioned anything but the timing of such an in-depth study of events.

    No, I don't act as if we were the only ones there. I think that on more than one occasion the FDNY brothers here have given thanks and credit to the brothers that came to help out, rasied money or attend funerals. The venom was reserved for those that exploited their experiences for personal gain. But that is not the issue now. The issue is the life that we are leading now, after everyone goes home.

    I know you are tired of hearing about it, but 190+ guys are still missing. The timing correlation between the public debating of WTC operations, and the retrieval of each of their bodies is the issue for us. It may be hard to visualize that from Carolina, but we want some peace for those that are hurting before the experts start the public questioning of events. I can see where that may not seem to be an issue from where you are sitting, but if you lived here you would probably understand.

    If you look back on the previous thread on WTC critiques, my statement was that information should be gathered now, while it was fresh, but that it should be done in a quiet manner, not trumpeted aloud from magazines and web sites. Those with valuable insight and counsel should be consulted and a plan for future response formulated. Noone would be more harsh on us than us. It just needs to be done in a way that spares those that are hurting any further grief.

    I do not fear discourse on the entire event, niether do my brothers. What we do fear is that the people who are on the edge now, will be hurt further by public speculation and innuendo about the death of their loved one. I think its laughable that you insinuate that we would rather do the same exact thing next time, with the same result, than to involve anyone outside of NYC in the discussion.

    By the way, no matter what outside information or counsel is sought after, our procedures will always be decided by us, not for us. If that is not the way it would be in your job then you have some work to do.

    I realize that half of the fun of debating is taking the right shots at a guy, so that you can **** him off. If getting a rise wasn't fun, then we would never break balls. If thats what you are after, charge on... I'm sure somone will take up the challenge. But after seeing them for what they are, you're name-calling and descriptions of incomplete philosophies are not draggin this kid into a 5 page "he said, she said" game.

    That was what I meant by the description of the forums as a social setting. It seems as if some members view them as a soap opera at times. You know, with all the insults, name-calling and chest puffing. It should be viewed as a forum for opinions and shared advice, not a high school where people try to fit in.

    Two different issues my friend. The alleged intimidation of posters to stifle debate (you said they were afraid, not me) and then the core issue that you want to hash out, which is the critique of the WTC operation.

    The last post was dealing with the personal attack on me as an FDNY spokesman, and my right to "speak for them" when so many other FDNY brothers are of differing opinions, according to your pals. You started that debate when you wrote my name at the top of the other message. I responded to that attack, not to any other issue.

  12. #12
    MembersZone Subscriber
    TailboardJockey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    NOCAL
    Posts
    224

    Default Geez...

    theboxalarm,

    Thank you for giving us all the green light to start discussing the World Trade Center...I'm sure I can speak for all of us (like you are trying to do) when I say that I've just been sitting here waiting for you to give us your permission to do so!

    What's up with the personal vendetta against southbronx and the other phantom FDNY member? You can deny it all you want, but you obviously have an axe to grind.
    Living the dream...

  13. #13
    Temporarily/No Longer Active

    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Posts
    223

    Default

    Mr. Boxalarm:

    However, comments made on these forums by two members of the FDNY have been off based and not representative of many in the FDNY or the fire service.
    Off based by whose estimation? In my eyes, they've based their opinions on their own feelings, which sits just fine with me. I don't think it's anyone's job to represent this so called silent majority that supposedly exists, which is what you appear to be doing. If you want to discuss it fine. Since most of us were not there that dreadful day, it's up to those that were to decide if they want to discuss it or not. If those who participate in this forum don't or won't discuss it, I respect that. Let those whose opinions are representative of yours log on and tell all. Regardless of the fact that this was a national tragedy, this was still FDNY's job, and it was their brothers who gave their lives. As firefighters, we all feel the loss, but not like they do. Sort of like my friends brother passing away.....I feel his pain, but it doesn't run as deep as his.

    Why are so many unwilling to start the conversation? Why do many follow blindly the two members of these forums who are from the FDNY about what should be said?
    I don't believe southbronx and whomever his partner in crime is have ever disuaded anyone from posting their thoughts. But since I tend to agree with their thoughts and not yours, you can go ahead and label me as someone who is blindly led around by the thoughts of others. Just because I happen to have a little compassion and respect for those that were there and whose hearts are bleeding and hurting doesn't mean I don't have a mind of my own.

    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by enginecappy; 03-11-2002 at 04:06 PM.

  14. #14
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default

    Nice try... gotta hand it to you. You are good. Its obvious what you are looking for here, and I have to say that you are damn good at trying to get it. We all appreciate a lively debate now and again. Sorry for "jumping in" but, after all, your post in the other thread did have my name on it.
    You are correct and for that I am wrong. Period. My comments refer to 229lt specifically and some of what you have inferred. I should have been upfront with that, hower, the song remains the same.

    As for nice try...sounds like you are backing out of a discussion. Nice job!

    You're right, I can spin it when I want to spin it. I may have met my match though. Making me a member of the Clinton administration and likening me to the right reverand from Harlem all in one post is damn impressive. If you only knew the bristling of neck hairs when those names are mentioned, you would truly feel satisfaction that your arrow found its mark.
    No arrow intended Bronx. They are the kings of spin and my comparison stands although I have to say that I am fairly poor at spin. By the way-What do you consider spin?

    I especially like the way you took the simile likening you to a child bragging about what his daddy said, and turned into a personal attack on you and your fathers untimely death. The old, "hey man... my mothers dead" line after someone told a "yo momma joke". Very nice work.
    A was your taking a discussion and turning it inot a "right to speech' case. Touche'



    Equally impressive is the way you took my defense of my desire to speak for the feelings and sensibilities of the members and families here, and turned it into the old "FDNY attitude" act. Talk about tired and "ad nauseum".
    Bronx- Again a pure spin in your statement. I turned "it" into the old FDNY attitude. Please cite evidence of that in my previous post. I don't recall ever saying those words to anyone. Of course you deflecting from the core of the discussion is quite a good move.

    Not once have I, nor have the other FDNY brothers here claimed that we were the sole authority on high-rise fires or terrorism. We have not said that we were the only ones in the country that have input or advice that could be valuable. Slide on over to the Fireground Tactics section of the forums and you will see FDNY members engaged in roundtable discussions with firemen from all over the country on a variety of different subjects. They, as well a I, value the opinions of others as they relate to the common threads of our job.
    I don't recall saying that you were the sole authority or inferring that I thought that you thought that you were. I wander over quite often to fireground tactics and enjoy the discussion.

    Our assertion is that the timing of critiques and dialogues and ceremonies and documentaries is, at times, questionable. My last post dealt exclusively with my ability, and the ability of the other FDNY brothers, to speak on the feelings of my brothers and our families. I submit to you that we are the authority on the feelings of our families and the brothers in our houses. When I have spoken on the "core issue" before, it was solely from this perspective, never from the "FDNY is the sole firefighting authority" view.
    I agree on the widespread showing of pictures and the instant celebrities that took advantage of a tragic event. I also do not think that a "critique", in the classical sense, should be held on this board. I do believe that asking general questions about how others might have, or would, approach an incident of this magnitude is justified. With respect to critiques, I am no fan of slinging that around. However i am a cupcake compared to people who want to get in the middle of it. I simply ask for discourse, not critiques

    "Our assertion" on behalf of............?

    To paraphrase you, the time for the grieving process to stop for our family, will be decided by us, not for us.
    Agreed 100%.

    Now to Quote you: "Opinions about this job should come from our members"
    This goes against your statement about being the sole firefighting authority, doesn't it?




    That is a sound strategy though... get the guys who aren't really paying attention to rally behind the "FDNY doesn't think we are qualified to speak" banner. Twist the conversation to show the people how the FDNY brother is insulting them. Go back through the forums, though, and show me where one of us has questioned anything but the timing of such an in-depth study of events.
    Are you now suggesting that people on these boards don't pay attention? I am no cheerleader so a rally is far from my mind. I will take the enormous heat I receive and keep moving forward. As for the timing issue, just how long are people supposed to wait. After Pearl Harbor, reviews and critiques were done posthaste. When the MGM burned, papers were out quickly. Worcester was discussed almost instantaneously. I can go on but to do so is to argue. Its called spinning, not twisting, because your points don't stand up Bronxie.

    No, I don't act as if we were the only ones there. I think that on more than one occasion the FDNY brothers here have given thanks and credit to the brothers that came to help out, rasied money or attend funerals. The venom was reserved for those that exploited their experiences for personal gain. But that is not the issue now. The issue is the life that we are leading now, after everyone goes home.
    Agreed. The FDNY brothers have thanked people. The people there, from other departments, however, also deserve to be heard. As for personal gain I agree, a number of "slick oil" salesman popped up. They have made a small fortune at the expense of this tragedy. I despise that as you do.

    With respect to everyone going home, you are correct. The life you are leading is very difficult. However that should not conflict with reasonable disussions on here or any where else.



    I know you are tired of hearing about it, but 190+ guys are still missing. The timing correlation between the public debating of WTC operations, and the retrieval of each of their bodies is the issue for us. It may be hard to visualize that from Carolina, but we want some peace for those that are hurting before the experts start the public questioning of events. I can see where that may not seem to be an issue from where you are sitting, but if you lived here you would probably understand.
    Tired of it? Provide the forum with specific citations where I said I was tired of it.

    From Carolina? How about Brooklyn???? How about Jersey City????

    we do fear is that the people who are on the edge now, will be hurt further by public speculation and innuendo about the death of their loved one. I think its laughable that you insinuate that we would rather do the same exact thing next time, with the same result, than to involve anyone outside of NYC in the discussion.
    Explain that statement

    By the way, no matter what outside information or counsel is sought after, our procedures will always be decided by us, not for us. If that is not the way it would be in your job then you have some work to do.
    It is not what is sought after it is what is requested. Do you know what the brass are doing??

    I realize that half of the fun of debating is taking the right shots at a guy, so that you can **** him off. If getting a rise wasn't fun, then we would never break balls. If thats what you are after, charge on... I'm sure somone will take up the challenge. But after seeing them for what they are, you're name-calling and descriptions of incomplete philosophies are not draggin this kid into a 5 page "he said, she said" game.
    You believe this is high schoolish? Fine, you have proven my point. You object, and do so in varying manners, to a discourse. Since you do not value it why engage in it. Your perception is off based. So if you would love to discuss it further, the real discussion, not your wheel spinning, then let me know. I will ask the moderator to close this thread and then I will begin another. Perhaps then a man will get on who understands that this is not personal, that I admire and respect the FDNY, and that, contrary to your statement, this is not he-said she-said. Pure Clinton spin. Avoid the issue.

    Stay safe SouthBronx and as before, my respect for the job YOU do is immense. Just as my respect for the guys in Philly, Lawrence, Providence, LA, Snyder and all points between.

    God Bless you!

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    FDNYRR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    336

    Default

    Hey guys, your both right, and your both wrong. You BOTH need to back off about 24 hrs and give the forums a rest. Both of you will be sorry for something you really didn't mean. Just my old War-Horse assumptions! This crap will not help anyone beyond helping..........and frankly it makes everyone uncomfortable regardless of both of you spewing prose and poetry.


    "All gave some...Some gave all!"
    9/11/01 Lest we forget!
    FDNYRR

  16. #16
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default

    Tailboard jockey said:
    Thank you for giving us all the green light to start discussing the World Trade Center...I'm sure I can speak for all of us (like you are trying to do) when I say that I've just been sitting here waiting for you to give us your permission to do so!
    Is that actually what you infer? No such thought. However you must believe what is right in your heart. Oh, and a vendetta. With your considerable skill please note, with some degree of certainty, why I have to have a "Vendetta"? Please explain as best you can.


    PhildaBox, whose posts I do enjoy reading stated that:
    Off based by whose estimation? In my eyes, they've based their opinions on their own feelings, which sits just fine with me. I don't think it's anyone's job to represent this so called silent majority that supposedly exists, which is what you appear to be doing. If you want to discuss it fine. Since most of us were not there that dreadful day, it's up to those that were to decide if they want to discuss it or not. If those who participate in this forum don't or won't discuss it, I respect that. Let those whose opinions are representative of yours log on and tell all. Regardless of the fact that this was a national tragedy, this was still FDNY's job, and it was their brothers who gave their lives. As firefighters, we all feel the loss, but not like they do. Sort of like my friends brother passing away.....I feel his pain, but it doesn't run as deep as his.
    IN YOUR EYES. Good point. My point made. By the way I have not asked them to discuss what they do not wish to discuss. I made a point, FROM MY EYES, like yours. Perhaps I should explain in depth. I will on another thread.

    God Bless you PhildaBox. Stay safe.

  17. #17
    MembersZone Subscriber
    E229Lt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    My comments refer to 229lt specifically and some of what you have inferred
    Does this make me #2?

    Let me know and I'll get started.

  18. #18
    Forum Member
    DeputyChiefGonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Somewhere between genius and insanity!
    Posts
    13,584

    Default

    When I originally posted on this thread, I missed the statements of

    Why are so many unwilling to start the conversation? Why do many follow blindly the two members of these forums who are from the FDNY about what should be said? originally posted by BoxAlarm.


    I have found the posts of all the FDNY members here...Southbronx, E229lt, FDNYRR and Rescue2Bob to be from the heart and compelling. They have been through the experience...I have not, neither have others.

    Can a dialogue be started? It actually began on September 11th. Within an hour of the collpase of the twin towers, there was some "yahoo" who stated that the FDNY's high rise protocols were the cause of the death of the Fallen Heroes. There was an outcry from the members of the forums, that thread was terminated.

    I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for the members of the FDNY. Some of the firefighters and officers are ready to talk, many of them aren't...that's human nature. Everyone has to deal with their emotions on their own level, not because "it's time".

    I apologize if I have offended any of you.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  19. #19
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default E229LT

    Loo,

    Get started. However please make sure you read my first post.

    Stay safe!

  20. #20
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default

    CappyGonzo says:
    I have found the posts of all the FDNY members here...Southbronx, E229lt, FDNYRR and Rescue2Bob to be from the heart and compelling. They have been through the experience...I have not, neither have others.
    Thats good. You should have read my entire post though, that way you would not have to defend yourself. My apologies if I was not clear enough.

    Can a dialogue be started? It actually began on September 11th. Within an hour of the collpase of the twin towers, there was some "yahoo" who stated that the FDNY's high rise protocols were the cause of the death of the Fallen Heroes. There was an outcry from the members of the forums, that thread was terminated.
    You give credence to the yahoo by calling what he said a dialogue. The thread should have been terminated.

    However this is March 11, 2002

    I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for the members of the FDNY. Some of the firefighters and officers are ready to talk, many of them aren't...that's human nature. Everyone has to deal with their emotions on their own level, not because "it's time".
    Did I ask for any FDNY FF to start talking. NATIONAL dialogue includes new York, but is not limited too New York. Isnt that correct Gonzo?

    I apologize if I have offended any of you.
    Of course you do.

  21. #21
    FIREMAN 1st GRADE
    E40FDNYL35's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 1999
    Location
    Malingering
    Posts
    3,644

    Default

    TIME OUT
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
    NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
    343
    CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
    LT. John Ginley Engine 40
    FF. Bruce Gary Engine 40
    FF. Jimmy Giberson Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Otten Ladder 35 *
    FF. Steve Mercado Engine 40 *
    FF. Kevin Bracken Engine 40 *
    FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
    FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
    FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
    FF. Michael Dauria Engine 40

    Charleston 9
    "If my job was easy a cop would be doing it."
    *******************CLICK HERE*****************

  22. #22
    Junior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    fire dept. ct.
    Posts
    14

    Default

    Hold on to your horses everyone. Lets let the F.D.N.Y. get thier priorities in order. First is bringing out all their brothers and other victims out of the W.T.C. Than and only than should the entire response and collapse be analyzed. But this must be done by the F.D.N.Y. when they feel the time is right,not by over eager mutts on this board. We all know that there are people on this board who do not have the brotherhood in thier hearts,but just want to see thier name in print and see if they can run down other depts.Well I hope that the vast majority of members of this board, be it large depts. or small, will have the common decency to wait to see when the events of 9-11 are analyzed.Who does it is up to the F.D.N.Y. I can wait,and I will learn, but only from the people that were there and the experts that they assemble.Dont forget that there are still funerals going on as brothers are still being brought out.Attend, if the funeral is open.Check the FDNY web page or the Union web page. Be safe all.

  23. #23
    MembersZone Subscriber
    TailboardJockey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    NOCAL
    Posts
    224

    Default

    theboxalarm wrote: "In the first few months after the tragedy, I agreed that little should be said in these forums about what happened. However now, six months removed, it is time for "discussion" to begin, not only among the FDNY, but also among the fire service."

    You yourself have proclaimed that it is time for discussion to begin. Where are all of the posts by FDNY members trying to stifle discussion on the subject? Please explain as best you can.

    As for the personal vendetta, after reading more of your posts I've realized that it's not just against southbronx and E229lt, it's against anybody that doesn't agree with you, i.e. name calling, insults, etc.(don't bother asking for examples, I'd be here all day typing them all). Is it really that hard for you to participate in a debate without sinking to that level?
    Living the dream...

  24. #24
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    482

    Default

    Is it really that hard for you to participate in a debate without sinking to that level
    No examples equals no debate. If there are SO many, then provide them.

    You yourself have proclaimed that it is time for discussion to begin. Where are all of the posts by FDNY members trying to stifle discussion on the subject? Please explain as best you can.
    You can do the research now that you are interested. I did say that because it is an opinion Jockey. Not a declaration.

  25. #25
    MembersZone Subscriber
    E229Lt's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Posts
    2,987

    Default JTL*

    Mr. Lowry,

    You should come on and state your position on these boards. You are here as a journalist fishing for a story. Not as a firefighter. Your little online Ragazine is dying and you need some new story to replace the last one about some firefighter who won a cooking contest.

    You, no doubt, feel as you do about me because I have often spoken out against the media and their tactics to “get the story at all cost”. You’re one of them, so, here you are, brining the fight for them. You know what Jay? I aint falling for it and I think most of the brothers and sisters here will see right through you.

    Your tactics are just like another Editor (ex-editor) who used to stink up these forums. You’re fishing for a story and don’t care how you get it. Your choice of 3/11 to begin this little quest leaves a lot to be desired. Your “friends” throughout the 5 boros on NY are the people who answer the phone at housewatch as you call firehouse after firehouse, searching for something to print. Looks to me like your going to use these very forums as your next story, you’re setting it up, calling around with quotes from here and getting feedback from my unsuspecting brothers. Shame on you.

    When I slammed Ted Rall and his cartoon, CBS and their airing 9-11, mutts who speak to the camera about their exploits and when I went after Larry H. Stevens, you as a psuedo-journalist, felt compelled to defend these poor souls.

    I have spent a few years on here and enjoyed the sparring now and then. To be honest, since September, I’ve been here self medicating and blowing off steam. Sorry if that has bothered you but I’d much rather upset you than my family.

    To my many brothers and sisters of these boards, I’ve tangled with many of you. Most notable is Capt. Stan. We got off to a rough start and today I’m happy to call him my friend. You, however, Mr. Lowry are not and not likely to become a friend of myself, or many on here.

    No go back to your online endeavor and try to make some of the stories interesting and fire related. Also see if more than 50% of the links do come up “unable to find page”.

    Your style of cutting, pasting, misquoting and misinterpreting is all to familiar to us here. Perhaps you should change your screenname to JTL*

Closed Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Log in

Click here to log in or register