Thread: Mutual Aid & Extrication
03-16-2002, 11:12 PM #1
- Join Date
- Dec 1999
- NorthEast Paid on Call
Mutual Aid & Extrication
Sort of a multi point question, pick and choose as you wish.
If you've got the extrication equipment and your neighbors that you mutual aid with don't do you:
1. Provide training to them to assist you in using the tools
2. Provide training to them on how they can assist you in other ways if you are called to their area
3. Tell them to get out of the way when you arrive on scene
Just trying to get a sense of how this works in other areas and how you'd like it to work.
Feel free to reply if you are with the department that doesn't have the tools yet._________DILLIGAF
03-16-2002, 11:41 PM #2
Our laws state that the department you belong to and the individual have to be acreditted to perform extrication.
In light of that, we train other departments/services in what we can do and ways they can help us do it.
Areas we can do:
* The types of extrication techniques we can do
* Other capabilities such as lighting, photographics, traffic direction
Areas they can help include:
* Hazard Elimination- Batteries, fuel spills, etc
* Access To The Scene- Getting the rescue truck into the scene
* Where equipment is located on the rescue so as they can assist with set up
* Basic safety around extrication tools
Hope this helps...
03-16-2002, 11:42 PM #3
I am going to have to go with a both 1 and 2.
If we had a mutual aid department without extrication capability we would train them in the use and techniques of our tools as well as the basic steps to performing extrication. IE, I would want them to be able to start the extrication process while we are responding (assuming they are going to get there before us). There is a lot to be done before you actually get to touch the tools to the vehicles. IE, inner and outer circle, their IC already have the priority PTs picked out, etc. Also, if possible, if they could get vehicles stabilized and batteries disconnected before we get there it makes the entire process a whole lot faster. That way, they could give us a situation report and have the first steps already done. In addition, they would need training on our tools in the basics. Just because we are showing up for mutual aid does not mean that they are going to stand back and watch, right. Who knows, we could be running with mixed crews and it would be great if everyone knew what was what and what was going on.
Ok, now real life. All of our mutual aid department's have extrication tools. We all use the same concepts and techniques. In addition, every so often (couple times a year) we all get together for a weekend and train and practice with each other, and each others tools. This allows us to keep in touch and on the same page with everyone."No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."
03-17-2002, 08:43 AM #4
- Join Date
- Dec 2001
#1 Yes offer them training on using the tools. Even if they never operate them it gives them a better understanding of what you are trying to do. Also who knows you might be short handed one day or any number of other things could happen and you would need one of them to step up.
#2 Yes offer them training in the other things they can do to assist that do not require direct operation of the tools. Some guys if it's not their equipment would really rather not operate it. They would if need be but would be just as glad if you ran your tools and be happy to do what ever they can to support you. ( someone to run and fetch is good if they know what they are going to get for you)
#3 Bad idea. If you roll up on the scene and say we are here the tools are ours get out of the way. You will create other problems that have nothing to do with the call at hand. As hard as it may seem the day could very well come when you need something from them. remember never say never it's a might long time.
#4 Not asked but. Why doesn't your chief go to their chief when nothing is going on one day and say hey spring is coming and we are setting up our training scedule. Offer them training, Offer it to them their guys only at their station. And let the officers of each dept. work together to come up with how much or how little the non-tool dept. will do when you are called to bring your tools in advance not in the heat of the moment.
03-17-2002, 10:32 AM #5
- Join Date
- Jul 2001
- Silver City, Oklahoma USA
Quite a multi-national perspective we're getting here.
We’re in the latter category: we don’t have the tools yet.
What I foresee us doing (soon, if I can persuade a few more people) is running the MVAs and doing the basic stuff such as fire suppression, traffic control, stabilization and glass removal while our mutual aid company in enroute. Then, when they get there, all they do is pull up and break out the big tools. This will (in theory) save some time for them and let them focus on getting the patient out.
We haven’t trained with the mutual aid company yet on extrication, but it would be an excellent idea so that we know how they like to do things. That way, we can perform our tasks in a manner that compliment their operations.
Being a young department, we’re just getting to the point where we can expand our services beyond fire suppression and not be stretching ourselves too thin. There are a few of us with experience running rescue that are chompin’ at the bits to start offering the service.
While the hydraulic tools are hands-down the way to go, I honestly believe that we can do a lot of good in the 15-20 minutes it takes our mutual aid company to arrive with basic hand tools.Bryan Beall
Silver City, Oklahoma USA
03-17-2002, 10:42 AM #6
- Join Date
- Dec 1999
- NorthEast Paid on Call
You are absolutely right Bryan, there's a lot you can do before the tools arrive. We have the tools and train with area departments that don't.
We have been in the situation in the past where the department we have provided aid to has done next to nothing before our arrival and even less after we rolled up. This was at least partially our fault. If they haven't had the training how can they know how you work and what they can do?_________DILLIGAF
03-17-2002, 12:02 PM #7
This problem is not as prevelant around here as it once was... but when we were supplying tools for extrication to neighboring departments, my preference was to train with them when we could. I would stress to them what things they can do with what equipment the do have prior to your arrival. I can recall incidents where we were called to bring the hydraulic tools, but while we were enroute, the requesting department managed to do most of the work with hand tools and a reciprocating saw that they had with them.
As for letting them stay and play, or get outta the way... if the call was a "simple" door removal or something that was not as much of a life threat as it was just an inconvenience, I would let members who have trained with us use the tools so that they could get some expeience with them. I learn from every extrication I do, so why not let them learn as well. Besides the experience with the tools, you also need to let them see the tools in operation and point out potential dangers and such. That way, when you do have the "oh crap" calls, you are not as concerned with watching them mutual aid department's people since many of them will have at least a working knowledge of what you are doing.
Finally, you hope that some day that department will get their own tools. So, any training and work you do with them will put them on the right track when they have their own tools. This is a team effort, not a deal where you bring your toys and if you are not happy you take your toys home.Richard Nester
Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.
"People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter
03-17-2002, 09:48 PM #8
When I first joined 15 years ago, my department was the primary Hurst tool for a three-town area.
Over the years, the departments we used to run on just about every pin job too have gotten their own tool sets that handle 90% of the extrications they encounter, your typical "Pop a doors" and some have a little more capability.
The department to our west runs a Hurst Omni-Tool, department to the south a Hurst JL-32 spreader and O-150 cutter. So we're pretty familiar with each others operations from using the same tools.
Department to the east of us runs (I believe) a Holmatro combi-tool for their basic door-pops but we still run for anything more complicated. We haven't cross trained with them.
Department to the north of us runs a Holmatro system with medium sized spreaders and cutters. They handle most of their own extrications, but we are one of two departments that run to back them up on complicated extrications...don't quite know what it is about their highways, but they get more than their fair share of "Oh my," extrications. We have cross-trained with them so we know how to operate their Holmatros, they know how to operate our Hursts...makes it easier if we have to combine members from two departments on a tool, and sometimes one of their members has been sizing-up a lot longer than us and knows just what they want our tools to do.
As of yesterday, we're running:
2 JL-32 Spreaders (Yep, the original ones with Titanium arms!)
1 Maverick Combi-Tool (converted from our old O-150 cutters)
1 Extractor shear
1 JL-30 Ram
1 Expanding Ram (forget the model number!)
1 Electric pump Simo unit. Paired with the Maverick on 15' of hydraulic cable and fed by a 150' electric cord reel, it's now our first off tool.
1 Electric pump to 2 -- 100' cord reels, feed a JL-32 and Extractor
1 Honda 4cycle gas pump, feeds the other JL-32
03-17-2002, 10:49 PM #9
- Join Date
- Feb 1999
- Cleveland, NY 13042-USA
Not a direct answer to the question but a chance to comment. We are in the process of creating an "Automatic Mutual Aid" Situation with 3 Fire Departments in Central (Upstate) New York. Having adequate personnel is a challenge for all three departments. We are in a rural section of the state (and yes New York State does have rural area with more far more trees than people per square mile) As we are coming in on the Ground floor here we have a lot to resolve between us. Fortunately we have been doing "Automatic Aid" for years in regards to structure fires. As we all know, Extrication and Extrication Education in the United States can and does vary widely not only from state to state but also region to region. Sadly NYS Only has a 16 hour basic course. Now our challenge is to Homogenize the training all three agencies have so we can be as cohesive an effort on the Accident (or should I say Crash )Scene. Fortunately (I guess) we all three use the same species of tool [HURST<~ not an edorsement, just a fact] but there is so much more to RESCUE than what color your Hyrdraulic tools happen to be. All you have to do is read all the various oppinions offered on any of the post to know there is more than one way to skin a Car! Some of them are OK, some are RIGHT ON and some Highly Questionable! I will try to make an effort to let you know how we distill things as this develops. Looking forward to any and all input you guys and gals may have to this branch of the overall topice as well as the original questions
Last edited by Carl Avery; 03-18-2002 at 11:46 AM.Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
Carl D. Avery
03-18-2002, 12:39 AM #10iceman4442Firehouse.com Guest
We're set up basically like Lutan as far as I can tell. In our state a department has to be certified at a level of rescue and be equipped, trained, and have continuing education to maintain it.
We are the heavy rescue for an area that covers a little over three counties (no interstates, lots of rural two lane roads). What we have done is train with the neighboring departments that sometimes also respond to MVA's so they know what we can do, and more importantly, what they can do to help before and after we arrive on scene. It's worked out really well for us and the neighboring departments this way.
We did have one fiasco where the chief of one of the neighboring departments told us not to run fire suppression support for our rescue truck (which is strictly rescue) in his fire district, as his department would handle it. Our chief had the foresight to have them roll anyway, as sure enough, if we hadn't, three out of the next four MVA scene wouldn't have had fire suppression support! The request was withdrawn shortly thereafter, and that particular chief has since been replaced.
03-18-2002, 09:28 AM #11
We are one of the few remaining towns that I know of where EMS does extrication, not the Fire Department. However, being one of the instructors for the First Aid Squad and looking at their current membership, I started last year in training FD members of our town in extrication. Trained them in every step from beginning to end so they are able to perform the duties (as long as someone from EMS brings the rescue vehicle to the scene). We have drilled with mixed teams from the 2 organizations with great success and have done same at actual scenes. Yes, EMS was a little upset that people other than them were "taking over" and using their tools, but over time they realized they can't always do it and what is best for the patient is what matters. Our EMS also covers two other towns which have their own FD's, so we have gone and trained them also but to a lesser degree. Both of these towns expressed an interest in knowing what is going on and how they can help, but did not wish to be doing the actual extrications. They do more of the stabilizing and scene safety items. I do believe, within the next 5 years, that extrication will move from our EMS to FD based on the FD having a larger membership, and that will involve mutual aid agreements being re-written, but we will deal with that closer to when the time comes.
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