1. #1
    Zio
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    Default need help with presentation on fire ground search

    Hey guysmy name is Tom and I am 19. I am new here and to the fire service. I just started volunteering for my towns fire department. I am also taking classes right now to get my fire officer 1 and 2. Since i have just started with my schooling and training I could use some help with a project because I have limited knowledge. I am taking the instructor 1 class right now and have to do a 1 minute presentation on fire ground search. If anyone could help me out that would be great. Below are things that need to be included.

    1. Primary Search
    -work in teams
    -Tools and equipment
    -positioning-crawling and walking
    -move systematically
    -important areas to search

    2. secondary search

    3. Marking systems
    -different kinds

    I know what primary and secondary searches are, but i don't know much about the tatics and how to perform them. so any help would be great.
    thanks guys
    Tom

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    ZIO - I wish you well brother

    Taking Instructor 1 and not yet experienced? Just kinda goes against my logic I suppose. NO offense meant toward you ZIO.

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    Not only that but Fire Officer 1 and 2?

    1 minute or do you mean 10 minute?

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    Default theboxalarm and Adze are right

    but i don't know much about the tatics and how to perform them

    When you finish FF1 and 2 you will.

    When you've spent a few years crawling around in burning buildings you might be ready to teach.

    Stop putting the cart before the horse my friend.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    Zio
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    I understand where you guys are coming from, but there are many people my age in my area doing this. I was told by about 4 or 5 fireman to do this while i have the time, so i don't have to do it later.

    Well I have no choice now. i am already in this class and have to do this presentation!!! And i meant that I have to do a 15 minute presentation.

    If you guys could help me out it would be great. I found a lot of info last night, but i could use any knowledge you guys have.

    thanks
    Tom

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    Zio
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    Hey guys, i re-read your posts. do you guys think that i am trying to become just an instructor wittout getting my FF 1 and 2? If so, that is not what I am doing. I want to be a fireman!!!! I really don't want to teach or instruct at all right now i just want to be a fireman. i am taking the FO1 and 2 courses right now because i am only 19 and not old enough to be a full time fireman yet. i figured that I would get this stuff out of the way while i have time.

    But I still need help with this project so any help would be great.
    Thanks
    Tom

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    I really don't want to teach or instruct at all right now i just want to be a fireman. i am taking the FO1 and 2 courses right now because i am only 19 and not old enough to be a full time fireman yet. i figured that I would get this stuff out of the way while i have time.
    How can you apply what you learn before you have ever stepped foot into a fire? "Getting" training out of the way is the silliest notion I have ever heard. You progress to a certain level, then move to training. Using the same logic you might as well go ahead and take the NFA Fire executive program. Then, when you make Chief, it is "out of the way".

  8. #8
    Zio
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    OK Guys I get the point!!! I shouldn't be in this class and i shouldn't be trying to get my associates degree in fire science.
    But why can't you guys just answer my question instead of ripping on me. Maybe i shouldn't be in these classes, but I am and I need to do this project so i don't fail.

    I understand what you guys are telling me, maybe i will stop taking classes until i become a fireman, but I have to finish this class first.

    so if you guys don't want to help me, please just say so and i won't visit this site anymore.

    thanks
    Tom

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    My guess is that we are trying to keep others safe. I can't imagine that any school would allow this to happen. Are there no requirements to take Fire Officer classes? I know in my area, you can't take many classes (if any at all) without first being a firefighter level 1. Trying to give you answers to how to perform search tactics without a knowledge of basic firefighting would be similar to an eye dropper at a four story fire. Again, no one is trying to "bash" you, we are trying to keep you safe!

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    so if you guys don't want to help me, please just say so and i won't visit this site anymore.
    Friend your young age is showing.

    No one faults you for getting a degree and no one is ripping on you. In short you are not qualified to take any of those classes and your community, as well as your brothers, are at risk here. Not to mention you yourself. With respect to help you are getting what firefighters would give you: A healthy dose of reality. I wish you the best and I pray for the brothers in your area.

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    Zio

    I shouldn't be in this class

    Exactly!

    and i shouldn't be trying to get my associates degree in fire science.

    Yes, you should be trying to get your degree.

    But why can't you guys just answer my question instead of ripping on me.

    You don't understand what you want to know. We could easily explain it to you, but how will you explain something you don't know and have never experienced to those that have?

    IMMHO, drop the class tommorrow and consider what you were told by about 4 or 5 fireman as extremely bad advice.

    Maybe i shouldn't be in these classes, but I am and I need to do this project so i don't fail.

    Drop the class, take it later when you've learned something. The questions you asked are basic and you don't know the answers, anyone in that class that has more experience than you is going to rip you.

    Below are things that need to be included.

    1. Primary Search
    -work in teams
    -Tools and equipment
    -positioning-crawling and walking
    -move systematically
    -important areas to search

    2. secondary search

    3. Marking systems
    -different kinds


    All of these things are covered in your FF1 and 2 classes. They're covered in stages for a reason. If you don't understand A, B won't make much sense.

    so if you guys don't want to help me, please just say so

    We are trying to help you.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

  12. #12
    Zio
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    I do know some stuff about what i asked. I was given this topic to do, i had no choice. The point of this project is to learn how to speak in front of a class, not to teach them about the topic. Also how am i supposed to get my degree if i don't take these classes. I have taken all the general education courses that i need already. The FO 1 and 2 courses is all i have left.

    The reason that I posted this question was to get some input on the topic. i wanted to make sure that I have everything covered. I know what a primary and secondary search, when to walk or crawl, door markings.

    I just wanted to make sure i wasn't missing anything

    I am not going to drop this class because it is my last day and i spent a lot money and i don't make much, so i am going to finish the class. so if anyone would like to help that would be great, if not i understand.



    I have one more question (this is a serious question, i am not being sarcastic) Of the 67 people enrolled in this course about 18-20 are not fire fighters. If it is such a bad idea to take these classes before you are a fire figther, why are so many taking them?
    Once again that was a serious question

    thanks
    Tom

  13. #13
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    Of the 67 people enrolled in this course


    Tom,
    This whole story just keeps going from marginal to bad...

    Last day of class? One minute presentation? Sixty-seven people in class? Is this really a Fire Service Instructor class?

    Sorry dude you spent money on this...but it sure sounds like the certification version of a diploma mill. Cash here, certificate on the way out.

    As for the information you needed, you can find it in an IFSTA manual -- that's what the instructors *should* be using and *should* be basing their curriculm on.

    --------
    IIRC from when I took my FSI-I, the class size was limited to 16 'cause that's all they have time for on the final evaluations day.

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    Question Huh??

    I've got a question that I don't think anybody has asked yet. Where are you going to school? Something sounds seriously flawed with the scheduling in this program.

    Someone said earlier that no one was trying to rip you, and I want to reinforce that. You've got to understand, however that we all recognize this whole thing as "irregular and bizarre" at best. To paraphrase your earlier post, "this is a serious question and we're not being sarcastic."

    There appears to be some serious irregularities here.
    Steve Gallagher
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    Zio
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    The classes i am taking are the Illinois state certified tests. I am going to Moraine Valley Community College. To get my fire Officer 1 I have to take five classes. Each class last three weeks. For that three weeks I go every Tuesday and Thursday from 8:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. These are excellerated classes that is why they are 8 hours a day. So far I have taken FIRE FIGHTING TACTICS & STRATEGY I, FIRE PREVENTION PRINCIPLES I, And the class that I am taking now and that the I am doing this presentation for is FIRE SERVICE INSTRUCTOR I.
    After this class I have two more classes to get my fire officer 1 (FIRE SERVICE MANAGEMENT I and FIRE SERVICE MANAGEMENT II) I asure all of you that this is a state certified program and we are using the IFSTA essentials book. I have firefighters from all over the area in my class. Many of my teachers have been instructors for Chicago for years and are very good at teaching. Oh yeah there are 60 some people, but they are split up into three different class rooms because there were so many people. there are about 20 people in each class room.

    I know you guys may not believe me but this is a good program ad I know many guys that have been through the program. The last day of each class we are given the Illinois state test for that part of office 1. I do have the Essentials book, but i wasn't sure if it covered everything that you guys acctually do in a fire.

    Yes i know i need experience, but for now i am going to finish these classes. I have paid my money and i can not get it back so i am going to finish. I will hold off for a year or two to finish my degree (my fire officer 2)

    I don't get how i am endangering other fire fighter and other people. It is not like i am going to jump into a fire and try to save someone. I just joined a my towns volunteer fire department. I am going to be taking my EMT soon. They are going to train me for my fire fighter 1 and 2. I am not attempting to say i am a fireman. I should be no where near a fire right now because I would be a danger to my self and other. I am going to get the proper training and certification before i become a full time fire fighter.

    thanks for all the help. i know you guys are just watching out for me and i appriciate that. sorry if i sound like a jerk in some of my other posts. I apologize if you guys think i was attacking you guys (i think it sounded like i was)


    thanks
    Tom
    Last edited by Zio; 03-25-2002 at 08:48 PM.

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    Thumbs up My turn

    The issue actually goes beyond you individually. It sounds as though someone regardless of background or experience can go out and teach after completing the course. Especially if your being given the state certification test at the end of the course. Once your certified in most jurisdictions, you can go out and teach whether you kinow beans about the topic or not. You seem to have your head screwed on straight, but what about the guys that sit to you left and right? No refelection on those individuals, but I think you get my point.

    Most places I've heard of have a minimum amount of experience before you can even take the class, much less take the test. Ohio, for instance, requires a minimum of 5 years as a certified firefighter prior to taking the class. I find it even more incredible that you can get an officer's certification with no experience. (No offense to you intended.)

    To answer your question, though, I would use the information in the Essentials manual, and keep it simple. Especially since your background is limited. When you start talking out of your league, there'll be someone in your class that has experience, and makes your 15 minutes seem like 15 hours. (Been there, done that, got the t-shirt to prove it.)

    Good luck.

    BTW, it's good to hear that your not going to jump in over your head. Get the experience to backup your education before you climb on that horse.
    Steve Gallagher
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    Ok...20 people per classroom is much more reasonable.

    Still, at Fire Service Instructor I level you're expected to stick to pre-prepared lessons. In a nutshell, what it says in an IFSTA or other training program.

    FSI-II level involves course development from scratch.

    Now, I don't think that means someone with a lot of experience and excellent knowledge of their department can't write a new class for particular training meetings with only FSI-I (or even without it). But in the context of going through instructor class, just stick to the book and don't try to bring in outside stuff. FSI-I is about presentation, and all ya gotta do is present what's in your book.

    =========================================

    Taking a Fire Officer/Fire Instructor class at a young age/limited experience isn't neccessarily bad. Ya just gotta know how to put it in context.

    There's four levels of compentency --

    1 Unconciously incompentent -- you don't know what you don't know.
    2 Conciously incompentent -- you know what you don't know.
    3 Conciously compentent -- you know what you know
    4 Unconciously compentent -- you know the topic so well, things just are second nature and you don't even realize how well your doing.

    Problems come when people come out of a class and think they're #3 when they're actually #1. Being in 2 & 3 mode most of the time isn't that bad of a thing.

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    Are the FSI1, FO1, and FO2 classes all part of your cirriculum for the fire science degree or are you taking these through the fire department?

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    Zio
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    Thanks guys for all the help. You guys are really great and I can't wait until i actually have the knowledge and training to be a good fire fighter.

    The Fire Officer I & II are part of the cirriculum at the school to get my associate degree in fire science technology. All of these classes will transfer to Souther Illinois University if i want to get my bachelor's degree.

    I actually willand won't be a certified Office I when I am done with this class because I also have to have something like 3 years of being a full time fireman. I also think i need something else too. So i will have the certificate, but i won't mean jack until have a few years under my belt. Hope you guys understand that and i didn't confuse you. The thing that I like about this class is that there are many experienced guys (10-15 years on the job) that are helping and teaching me a lot. Two of my instructors help write or construct the illinois programs so i have people that know what they are talking about.

    I can't wait until i start my trainging. This is the first time in my life that I have learned about something that I care about. It is weird actually wanting to go to school.

    well thanks again guys
    Tom
    Last edited by Zio; 03-26-2002 at 12:06 AM.

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    Best of Luck ZIO

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    Zio

    I am an instructor myself. I understand what you are talking about. I think you are feeling the same way I was when I started. Nervous. But I encourage you to go for it. Everyone has to start sometime. Be it young, inexperienced or whatever, you have to start sometime. Since this is a part of your learning process you wll probably have someone more experienced then yourself to guide you and give you comments on your performance so donīt bee nervous. Just give it your best and be prepared to take guidance and who knows you might become not only the best fireman but also the best instructor in the future. Good luck.

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