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  1. #1
    Member Stay Back 500FT's Avatar
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    Default What an interesting thread...

    No matter what your opinion on the subject, I would think that most would agree that the thread started by theboxalarm has been truly fascinating. It has been eye-opening to see not only the regular forum participants voices posted, but also the webteam and Dr. Harry Carter himself. What an amazing show of free speech from all sides of the issue. Thanks for the bumpy, yet truly interesting ride!


  2. #2
    Senior Member FireFighterMO's Avatar
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    Default Ditto

    Box, take a bow. Job well done!


    p.s. getting dr. carter to respond has to be worth a degree from somewhere - LoL

  3. #3
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    Unhappy

    I have received enormous amounts of email supporting me as well as those on the other side. I have been shocked by the number of infuentials who have watched and are watching now to see how this plays out. I was extremely gratified to have "the man" at Firehouse magazine send me an email. It is very interesting. I am not out to be right, merely have the ability to disagree without being censored. I just hope I am around long enough to enjoy more stimulating debate. If not, email me.

  4. #4
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    Default You decide

    In the post that the webteam made where I demanded that H. Carter be removed, I have taken the liberty of pasting below the entire context of our exchange. They will ban me after this because they have to. As you can see, I never demanded, I implored. There is a huge difference and I was very respectful. The owner of the site wants me banished so off I go. Here is the email exchange...NOTE****Read from the bottom up. here also is the notes the webteam and I exchanged.

    Re: Dave
    Noted.
    [quote]
    webteam wrote on 03-26-2002 02:18 PM:
    You demanded.

    Just let this die. We frankly have tired of dealing with issues related to this.

    In the past two months you've had us change your web site links, its closed, you asked they be removed, then it reopened, you asked they be relinked, now closed again. And reopened.

    Then there are the forum posts, numerous times requesting we close certain ones, apologizing for posts we never complained about, then restarting threads with the same issues you asked us to close the original.

    Please, just let this end. It is our opinion you demanded we remove the letters and threatened we would be embarassed by the consequences. Implore and demand is a matter of semantics. You indicated if we kept the letters, it would not be 'doing the right thing'. Furthermore 'I am taking it upon myself to ask you to have Chief Carter remove the Dr. from his name on the site.'






    Dave,

    Thanks for your response. I respect your decision. In fact, please do not close any threads that I have asked about in the past. I will cease communicating with you regarding Carter or closed threads.

    Regards,

    Jay
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Firehouse.com WebTeam
    To: The Lowrys
    Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 11:48 PM
    Subject: RE: Complaint and request to close thread




    Jay

    This is becoming a regular occurance with you asking to close threads you have opened. We have not been following this specific thread and we will not ask Dr. Carter to remove any title from his title as that is none of our business. Harry Carter is a writer for multiple publications and uses the title in all, not just Firehouse.com, therefore any 'situation' would go across the board. That is at his discretion and you can contact him yourself if you truly believe there are some issues. You are not a judge nor a jury and while we respect your opinions, we will not act in any manner as requested. If we have continue to have problems with having to close your threads will we have no choice but to remove your ability to post in the future.

    Thank you
    Dave

    -----Original Message-----
    From: The Lowrys [mailto:jaylowry@knology.net]
    Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 3:41 PM
    To: webteam@firehouse.com
    Subject: Complaint and request to close thread


    Dave,

    I admire and respect the job you have done in building a site that is a leader in the fire service. I also respect the way that you have dealt with people like me. You are fair. I appreciate that. With the recent revelations about people receiving degree's from non-accredited universities and you allowing them to keep that title up, you are creating a false identity for that person. In talking with many, many others I am taking it upon myself to ask you to have Chief Carter remove the Dr. from his name on the site. If we can find out all this information on the degree's offered by this "university" then you certainly can too.

    I think that in the coming months, as this becomes common knowledge, it will be embarrassing for Firehouse.com. That is simply my opinion of course and you have to do what you see fit. However you could cut the bull off at the fence by taking a proactive approach. If someone is misled by the "Dr." you have on your site then what does that hold for you? I implore you to do the right thing Dave. I think you will find it wildly popular with those who are interested in the fire service.

    I hate to see it happen because the person in question was one of my heroes. I admired him greatly and this has stung me hard personally. I feel like I have been betrayed and that I have helped perpetrate that myth by supporting him.

    I realize that you will most likely "stick" by your man. I understand that. Moreover there is a strong urge in me to do so. However, due to events and comments by mine and your peers, it is impossible for me to stick. I hope that you make the right decision.

    Could you please remove or close the thread about the diploma mills. I would appreciate it.

    Stay safe Brother,

    Jay

  5. #5
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    Default Thank you Box

    I would like to thank you for bringing this to light,

    I am working on a BS in Fire Science and I am glad that more people out there now know that there are fake degrees floating around, and that when I go for a job interveiw, the degree I have worked on as well as the expiriance I have will be taken into account. and that my years of work in an actual classroom, learning from others, which college is truly about, will pay off, and I will not lose a job to some jerk trying to pass a fake degree off as a real one.

    You have voiced the truth, and we all have that right, I have learned one thing from this, and that is if we remain quiet, we will be overlooked.

    If you are ever in my neck of the woods I owe you a drink.

    Cheaters never prosper, as long as we dont let them.

  6. #6
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    Angry So the question is still unanswered.....

    WHY did Harry pursue this degree ? Was it to gain knowledge or expertise in a certain area ? NO. Harry stated in his previous reply that his degree was "awarded" based upon his experience alone. Was it to achieve the status and recognition afforded to persons with traditional Ph.D's who have completed a course of study then awarded a degree based upon a competency based evaluation without having earned it ? MAYBE.

    Harry, or any other person with a CrackerJack degree from WSU, surely is misrepresenting themselves using the title PhD since it is implied that the degree is "traditional". I'm sure Harry's business cards or letterhead does not state in small print "A non-traditional degree". The general public has a standard image of what someone with an advanced degree has earned and WSU redefines that standard.

    I have great respect for anyone who has a degree, whether it be a AAS, BS, MS or PhD. A degree is indicative of hardwork and discipline. It is something that is earned not bought.

    For all the hardworking brothers and sisters out there that are trying to complete traditional degrees while working and supporting families, don't give up and take the easy way out ! You have my full respect !

    Joe Pechacek, B.S., S.F.P.E, P.E. (earned at an accredited university or achieved through national standard testing)

  7. #7
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    Default

    Just so everyone is clear, the posts above do not include several other exchanges ... but lets move on from that, please.

    No one in any of this was/will be banned for bringing this issue to light, discussing it, nor discussing any specific person who might be affected ... assuming the comments are not slanderous in nature.

    The Firehouse.com Forums have always been a place where virtually every fire service topic has been discussed and few people have ever been permantently removed. In addition, we rarely delete a thread directly and prefer closing it.

    But if you have nothing to do but be sarcastic (here, on other sites, and elsewhere) we don't need to let that continue. We work very hard every day to provide the most comprehensive information and resources available on the Web and will continue to do so. This is VERY personal to us when one or more individuals chooses to vent their issues and falsely states why we do certain things.

    When one individual or a group of individuals takes our time away consistantly to manage customer service issues related to them, we have no choice but to act. Our goal is to ensure the majority of users enjoy their experience here, and as the forums traffic continues to rise we only hope that is the case. Sometimes a few users will not always be happy about the decisions that are made, but that is our right as the site owners, as per the Terms of Service viewable at any time in the FAQ.

    Additionally, we will not and cannot tolerate slandering of a specific individual. This is not a court of law, this is however a professional Web site where folks must realize there are certain laws of common sense and practices that must be applied. Discussing a topic is one thing, but when people make statements about specific individuals that MAY or MAY NOT be true.

    We made a mistake in allowing some individuals to continue participating here, despite their past and current practices of openly criticizing us in more than unreasonable fashion elsewhere. We do not favor any one group, or individual, over another, unless our hand is forced.

    The main thing to remember is if we do post a message asking a post to be controlled there may be other issues (past problems with specific users, or topics) that may be applicable that all users are not aware of.

    Call it censorship, call it whatever you please ... this is a private site and you are bound to the terms of service upon registration. RARELY are those rules enforced unless there is a problem which truly requires our attention.

    Most active users will note that few times do we need to act until there are multiple issues with a post or thread. We do not actively look at every threads every day and mostly rely on user input to report problematic posts.

    Thanks for your continued support,
    WebTeam

  8. #8
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    Default

    I agree that slander is way too much. Having watched these boards for awhile I foind nothing slanderous in what was said. It appeared to be more up front than slander. I wonder what an attorney thinks. if you call someones background into question is that slander?

  9. #9
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    Default

    The comments made about individuals or organizations were not the primary reason individuals have been banned, its more the tone and context, and other things that happen off-site.

    If someone basically asks to be banned and thinks its funny, we're going to ban them. There isn't enough time in the day to play games with people and try to figure out what their real objective is. Its much easier to cut them lose than to spend significant time dealing with individual situations that don't warrant that much time.

    Please read our post at the top of the Firefighters Forums.

    Thanks
    WebTeam

  10. #10
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    Default

    It just seems odd that boxalarm was thrown off the same day that whole carter thing happened. too much of a coincedence to me. but i don't care. i will use the forums until something else comes along

  11. #11
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    Default

    It should be noted that ontheinside's comment is incorrect in that the first discussion about Harry Carter took place days ago.

    It should also be noted that some of the users posting here are in fact, are likely the same person using multiple userids in some situations.

    Thanks
    WebTeam

  12. #12
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    Default

    I don't care if someone starts a hundred threads about Harry Carter, I will be in every one of them to defend my friend.

    There is no man in the fire service today with more integrity than Harry. There is no man in the fire service today more committed to the proper training and safety of fire fighters than Harry. This man has never, ever, ever, portrayed his degree for anything other than what it is...non-traditional. His CV clearly and unarguably says that.

    It was no miracle that Harry posted on these forums. He is the most accessible fire service leader there is. Call him. Email him. He will call you or write you back. No matter who or where you are. That's the way he is. I heard a story about a college kid doing a research paper who wrote to Harry to ask him a question. The question was too involved to answer, so Harry tracked the kid down and called him in his dorm. He fully explained the answere, answered several more questions and gave the guy some encouragement. That is the essence of the man.

    I am proud to call him my friend.

  13. #13
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    Default

    Out of curiosity, why can't Harry post on the forum as Harry?

    Please don't read any further into this...it's really that simple a question.

  14. #14
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    Default

    I respect the fact that Harry responded albeit through an intermediary. It shows that he is responsive. He should be credited for that. With respect to other items all will come out soon enough.

  15. #15
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    Default

    As of yesterday, Harry was having trouble getting his Firehouse.com account activated. If the webteam could give him a little help, I know he would appreciate it.

    ATT: Conspiracy theorists: It appears to be a software problem and not a conspiracy to keep him off the site.

  16. #16
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    Default

    I recall there used to be a section about Harry on these forums. So I guess they removed it. It would be great to have Harry on live with the rest of us. Sounds invigorating.

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