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  1. #1
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    Default Justice for Worcester

    Lt. Thomas E. Spencer
    Timothy P. Jackson
    James F. Lyons
    Joseph T. McGuirk
    Paul A. Brotherton,
    Jeremiah M. Lucey

    May they be remembered and may justice be carried out.


  2. #2
    Forum Member PAVolunteer's Avatar
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    I believe a Worcester fireman said,

    Sure, it makes you feel better to prosecute someone, to put them in jail. But what good does it do? It's like kicking a dog. It doesn't do anything good for anyone.

    Or something to that effect.

    Stay Safe

  3. #3
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    Justice needs to be served. Period.

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    Amen Brothers.

    May justice be finally carried out.

    And speaking of Worcester, I bought the book "3000 degrees" today at Barnes and Noble. It is all about the fire at the cold storage warehouse that killed our 6 brothers.

    Ed Brando
    I.A.C.O.J.-Member

    "The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits".-Albert Einstien

    "If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door"-Milton Berle

  5. #5
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    Brando,

    I didn't know they had a book! I hope some proceeds go to the families.

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    theboxalarm:

    The full title of the book is "3000 Degrees" and the subtitle is "The true story of a deadly fire and the men who fought it."

    It is written by Sean Flynn who wrote the article "The perfect fire" for Esquire magazine.

    There is no mention anywhere on the cover or in the jacket about part of the proceeds going to the families or any firefighters fund.

    I just saw the book on the shelf and out of curiosity picked it up and then when I saw what it was about, bought it.

    Ed
    I.A.C.O.J.-Member

    "The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits".-Albert Einstien

    "If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door"-Milton Berle

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    Emsbrando, if that book is good, please let us know. I might go buy that myself. Nothing can bring the fallen brothers back, but justice still must be served to those who deserve it.

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    engine117

    No problem brother.

    Ed
    I.A.C.O.J.-Member

    "The only difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits".-Albert Einstien

    "If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door"-Milton Berle

  9. #9
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    Angry Long over due!

    I think this is really long over due. I hope that the prosecution will get it right this time!
    Joel

    Lets never forget the events of 9-11

    If you sent us to HELL, WE'D PUT IT OUT!!

    **And of course these are only my opinion and only mine. Don't take it out on anyone else but me.**

  10. #10
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    Thumbs up

    There was a book siging today at Tatnuck Booksellers in Worcester. Sean Flynn, the author of "3000 Degrees" was there along with Dennis Smith, who was there signing "Report fom Ground Zero".

    Tatnuck Booksellers had to have been the safest building in Worcester this afternoon...the place was filled with firefighters, many of them old friends from neighboring FDs and the Massachusetts Fire Academy.

    I saw Worcester Fire Deputy Chief Mike MacNamee there, he was the IC at the Building from Hell. I spoke with Mike for a few minutes (I know him from the State's District 3 Hazmat Response Team) and he told me that the book is an accurate account of what happened that night.
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 03-30-2002 at 08:31 PM.
    ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
    Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

  11. #11
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    "The Perfect Fire" was the best magazine article I've ever read. The way Sean Flynn weaved the personal story of all the lost firefighters into the chronology of the fire itself was excellent. This was a tragic story, but one any firefighter could feel very deeply and on a personal level. Unfortunately the loss of over 300 from FDNY just boggles the mind and to me, at least, doesn't have the same emotional impact that I know it had for many, many others. I can't wait to read "3000 Degrees".
    _________DILLIGAF

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    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Closure. This one needs closure. Maybe along with justice will come closure. The firesetters weren't homeless; they were living in the warehouse. They left knowing that they started a fire. They were born with a brain; therefore they knew what they did. Arson-no; involuntary manslaughter-yes. A victory for the victims-absolutely.
    Just my opinion.

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    I'll be watching the prosecution on this case. All Mass procecutors could get in the Junta/Hockey rage case was involuntary. Absolutely clear cut cause and effect and that's all they could get?

    How exactly the prosecution is going to take not making a phone call into a case is going to be interesting. Also, for anyone that believes this will be justice, how do you think the prosecution will deal with this: Defense is going to use LODDs like the recent 2 LODD in Pompey (Syracuse area). In that fire, homeowner makes an immendiate call to 911, tells them there is a fire, everyone is out, and also tells them that they were messing with some chemicals in the basement. These people sound like they were about as forthcoming as possible.

    FD shows and 2 firefighters die. In fact, I believe the county fire coordinator said somethign to effect that the FD does a search, etc as SOP. The defense can also probably pull many other similar cases. Here's a case, timely 911 call, FD searches anyway and 2 firefighters die. How does the Worcester prosecutor deal with that? How does the prosecution make the lack of a call into the reason for the eventual fatalities when in probably the vast majority of LODDs, someone called the fire in?

    I could go either way on the two homeless. I can understand the desire by some to hold them accountable and I think they should be held to some level of accountability. Involuntary; 3-5yrs Mass sentencing guidelines. I don't know about parole, etc., but let's say they serve a couple years. OK.

    But I tend to lean the other way. I think that the we should hold civilians to certainly no higher level of accountability then we do ourselves. If you look at the NY LODDs, no one is getting charge. Homeowner was messing around with chemicals, but they called it in, and came clean - there off the hook I guess. What about the FDs? Are we going to hold anyone accountable there? Maybe an IC? I doubt it. I guess it will be just "an accident." When we make a bad judgment, etc. I guess we don't want to end up going to jail, so I guess we don't want to be held that level of accountability. And we are the experts in firefighting.

    So when we hold ourselves accountable, then I'm all for the involuntary for the homeless. But if we, the experts, aren't willing to hold ourselves accountable, then I just can't go with holding two civilains accountable for not making a phone call when they couldn't possibly know that a chain of events would occur that would result in the firefighters deaths. We in the fire service are very aware of how LODDs occur and the circumstances, and we don't hold ourselves accountable.

  14. #14
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    But if we, the experts, aren't willing to hold ourselves accountable, then I just can't go with holding two civilains accountable for not making a phone call when they couldn't possibly know that a chain of events would occur that would result in the firefighters deaths.
    CILFD - I appreciate the post. Opens up some discussion. The whole arguement that they could not have known the chain of events that would occur is baseless, in my view. According to that logic we should not hold drunk drivers accountable because they could have not foreseen the calamity that happened after they ran into a van and killed three people.

    These two people, homeless but not helpless, are responsible for the events leading up to the deaths of six firefighters. As for holding our own accountable, it would seem that has started in a training death in Lairdsville. I am unaware of the tragedy outside of Syracuse so I am unable to comment on it.

    I appreciate you response because it was thought out. Stay safe!

  15. #15
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    Old Fric,
    I appreciate the reply as well and the manner in which you responded. I will respectively disagree with you on the drunk driver comparison. Personally, I think that if you ask almost any Joe or Jane, they are going to be very aware of the consequences of DWI, including that fatalities may result. I can't make the jump that the avergage Joe/Jane would know that not calling in a fire will result in firefighter fatalities. The WFD chief officers did not know that the 6 firefighters were going to die when they pulled up on that fire. How can one say that 2 civilians, who don't know anything about fire department operations, fire spread, bldg/code compliance, the fact the sprinklers were shut down (I believe), etc. were supposed to know that 6 firefighters would/could ultimately die if they didn't phone in the fire? There is just no way I can make jump. With decades of experience, and all the knowledge I described, WFD chief officers couldn't predict the chain of events when they showed up, how possibly could a civilian?

    The other issue I have this - let's say one of them did call it in. How's anyone going to verify who these people are? Do they know if anyone else is in the bldg? Is the WFD going to completely alter their strategy/tactics because a homeless person calls up and says we were the ones in the bldg, we started the fire, and no one else is in the bldg? In the recent NY LODDs, the actual homeowner called it in, could obviously account for who was in the house and were they out, and the FD chose strategy/tactics that lead to 2 firefighter fatalities. Again, did the FD know the chain of events would lead to 2 LODDs? Obviously not, or a different strategy would have been selected since the IC knew (or should have known from dispatch) that the civilians were accounted for.

    Like I said in my first post,I have no problem holding the two to some level of accountability when you look at it very narrowly. However, I think the actual legal case is full of holes and I also think that the fire service doesn't come even close to holding ourselves accountable as we are expecting for the Worcester homeless.
    And if we really want to prevent these types of incidents, we've got to go way beyond the actions/inactions of civilians. Personally, I think prevention is far more effective than the idea of holding fire officers/civilians legally accountable. Not that it shouldn't play a role, but we need a lot more than that.

    Again, appreciate your reply.

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    CILFD
    Personally, I think that if you ask almost any Joe or Jane, they are going to be very aware of the consequences of DWI, including that fatalities may result. I can't make the jump that the avergage Joe/Jane would know that not calling in a fire will result in firefighter fatalities.
    I can understand where you are coming from but anyone of average intelligence can foresee that if they fail to act in what is an otherwise normal, civilised manner, a tragedy might occur. If I ride by where a three gentleman are following a woman down a street at a late hour I would be prompted to stop and watch her or alert law enforcement. Though I do not forsee that by law enforcement showing up they may be murdered by one of the men, I instinctively know what is "right" and "wrong". I do see your point.

    On the WFD not knowing that they would lose six wonderful people, any incident commander who doesn't realize that at any time they might lose people is no IC. In fact on every call firefighters go on there is, in the back of the mind, a thought that any fire could be their last.

    As I said I see your point but respectfully disagree. Stay Safe!

  17. #17
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    cilfd:
    I have gone back and re-read your post three times and I keep coming back to your notion that: since you have this perception that we are killing our own without any major consequence, then we should not hold members of the public responsible for careless acts that precedes a fire department response. You don't believe that the homeless persons should be charged with a crime because we are suppose to accept the notion that firefighting is inherently dangerous? And since we, as fire departments, are not speaking to or training to the many unsafe conditions that exist with firefighting and are killing firefighters in the meantime that we should not hold the public responsible for creating unsafe conditions that can ultimately cause the death(s) of firefighters? Is this an accurate interpretation of your post? Because, if it is, I have some thoughts for you.
    In case you haven't noticed, there has been an increase in prosecutions of firefighters as firesetters and firefighters as accessories after the fact to deaths of persons under their direct control. I know there are many out there who believe that the courts are only hitting the tip of the iceberg of firefighter criminal acts, but where it was never reported before, we are seeing more stories of these underreported crimes. There are seminars sweeping our nation that reminds the oversight boards of their legal responsibilities in the event of a firefighter's death where their oversight was lacking or missing completely. We are being reminded, that, we can ignore NFPA, our state fire marshal's recommendations and even Federal OSHA regulations, but there are consequences of those actions that will land you in a civil courtroom. The days of believing that our adoring public won't sue us or charge us with a crime are over. I, like many in these forums, believe that the harshest punishments should be for those who wear our uniform in the name of Honor and denigrate it by setting fires or allowing our men to die due to a lack of support; be it a lack of training, equipment or morality. If found guilty, lock them up and throw away the key. They are terrorists, pure and simple.
    We cannot justify the deaths of our own by arguing that we work in a very hazardous occupation. We must provide our people with every opportunity to perform their work daily with minimal risk and part of that is training and equipping them to meet, recognize and mitigate the hazards. They are dying because we are failing miserably at education; not because we don't have the information, but because we aren't packaging that information effectively. We deliver it with enough ineffectiveness to fire departments that they believe they have an option to accept it or reject it, because there has not been a severe downside, until recently, to their indifference. Because we work at such a noble profession, dying for it is considered noble. The ultimate sacrifice! Grand funerals for those whose fates were sealed by their department's indifference to safety training and education.
    Well, that is all changing now. It has been long overdue. Leaders of fire departments are naturally a little nervous about where the lines will be drawn, but it won't scare me off. Chiefs carry a responsibility unlike any other's on their fire departments. You cannot accept the five bugles if you are not willing to accept your department's full responsibility for less-than-successful outcomes.
    If we permit the public to walk away free and clear from their lapses in judgment, while at the same time holding us to a much higher standard, then you create an open season on fire departments. Leaving a candle burning and leaving is one thing. Leaving a fire caused by a burning candle is quite different.
    For those of you who may argue that we should be charged for our crimes no differently than our public; remember that we took a vow; an oath, and for that, the price should be greater.
    So in the end, I predict that there will be a successful prosecution of the firesetters and the families of The Worcester Six will have closure to their city's worst fatal fire. The memory of their loved ones will never die. The lessons learned will hopefully prevent another one.
    My opinion; right or wrong.

  18. #18
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    Default 3000 degrees

    I also recieved the book as an Easter gift from my father and it is incredible. I am 15 years old and I am from Worcester and many of my fathers friends are on the dpartment which is what i plan on doing after i graduate from college. My father has spoken with many of them about what happened that night and from what they have told him which he has told me this book is close to 100% accurate. It really demostrates the true meanings of the job and i advise everyone who can to read it. You will not regret it. I have a thread based specifically on the book on either page 3 or 4 in the FF forum and in that post i have included a link to where you can buy the book. I'll leave you with a bible passage many which many of the men who were there that night had running through their heads which was used frequently throughout the book , "Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for his brothers".
    "Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for hs brothers".

    Firefighter of the Future

    "There's no use sending a FF to hell, he'd just try to put it out"

    "We're the one's walking in when everyone else is running out"

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