1. #1
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    Question Small Tips on Elevated Master Streams

    Ok brothers and sisters....This is my 500th post so I will make it a good one. I am certain this will produce some interesting thoughts.

    Did anyone happend to watch "The Bravest" last night? (3/31)

    During the prison fire in Newark NJ after a ridiculously long time of operating in an abandoned building, they called for a long long overdue evacuation.

    They subsequently went to elevated master streams. I noticed on several of the streams they appeared to be using the smallest tip on the "STACK"......>>>WHY????? Why use a 1 1/4" tip flowing 400 GPM on a master stream. The streams in the footage were ineffective at best. If you are going to go to master streams then why not go with the "big guns" Why not use the the 1.75" or 2" tip and flow big water for that kind of situation. In most cases from my experience (I am guilty) once you start with a certain tip you never shut down and change. I have some departments that have the stack tips and took all of them off except the 1.75" tip. I had one department purchase 2" tip to go on their MS on the Tower Ladder and did away with the fog tip.

    So there you have it...My 500th post. Dedicated to the 343 brothers who gave their all on 09-11. God bless you all.
    Last edited by captstanm1; 04-01-2002 at 11:14 PM.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  2. #2
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    I didn't watch the show but the two reasons that you would use the smaller tip would be quantity of water available and needed stream reach. If you are unable to adequately supply a large tip no point in using it. Stream reach is an important factor smaller tips reach farther. The third reason may be hydraulic overhaul, cutting things up with the small stream.
    Just a few thoughts from someone who wasn't there.

  3. #3
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    You had to see it to understand.

    There was no hydraulic overhaul. The building was being knocked down by heavy equipment and was well involved in fire.

    As far as water supply goes...well...there was a lot of LDH in the street and there seemed to be "good water"

    As far as tip reach...well.. I know this will stem further debates but the foward velocity of the water gives it the reach. 80 PSI nozzle pressure is 80 PSI whether on a 1.25" tip or a 1.75" tip. With the volume of fire there the ineffective stream was NOT even reaching the fire building. Could be compared to attempting to comb your hair during a Class 4 Hurricane. It does not work.

    Even so....an application rate of 400 GPM would not even begin to impact and absorb the amount of BTUs being produced. I guess if you raise the level of the water higher than the level of the fuel the fire will eventually go out!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  4. #4
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    Most likely for the reason most of us (including myself) look back afterwards and go shoot, we should have done X instead.

    'Cause we don't train regularly to do X.

    How many photos have you seen of a big fire, and the first line being pulled is the 1.75" they pull on every fire.

    How many of us drill regularly to move big water? So when your excited from big fire, your in autopilot unconciously making decisions like which tip you use. Without drilling to, well, drill it into you, most of us know we shouldn't use the smallest tip...we just forget not to.

  5. #5
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    Yes..it is a training issue...

    No matter what the excuse is....it is ridiculous..and yes...I am also guilty of doing the same thing.. But...now I try and go slower...and make wise decisions. Comes with age!
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  6. #6
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    It is for that very reason that so many people like automatic nozzles. Lack of training.

    I didn't see the episode, but I bet the stream looked good and the guys didn't even realize the stacked tips had not been removed.

    I like the idea of having seperate tips. One tip that can flow the max that the truck is capable of flowing and another for the low flow scenario. No real extra time spent, You still have to shut down to remove or switch tips.

    Stay safe and keep the fog nozzle off of the master stream

  7. #7
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    Why not start with the max that the truck can flow (if water is available) and adjust down as the situation changes.

    If not...it seems we are always playing catch up.

    Oh...DUH!!!! In case you did not notice...I used the wrong city in the original post. Was having a moment of mental lapse...(Brain cramp). Hence the edit to the original post.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  8. #8
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    I couldn't agree more, but I know too many supervisors that don't like the look of the stack tips with the smallest tips removed. I also have been told in the past that the exposed threads would be damaged if the tips were not together.

    My question was what would damage the exposed threads, meteors perhaps. That didn't go over very well

    Stay safe

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    Just my two cents...I know iam new around here...but i know a little!... I saw the episode lastnight (re-run anyways). One reason they may have not bumped up to a higher nozzle was because if you overheard the chief say they didnt want a roof collapse - one because they still had equipment inside the building (lines, hoses, etc), and two because the fire on the lower floors would still be burning after a collapse, and we all know how much of a pain it is to do overhaul on a collapse - Just my moneys worth...


    For the brothers.
    Last edited by irish_ffighter; 04-02-2002 at 12:21 AM.

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