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  1. #1
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    Question Vent, Enter, Spray, Search

    Anyone using the Vent, Enter, Spray, & Search tactics? Any advice? Willing to share any SOGs?


  2. #2
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    Question

    Spray?
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

  3. #3
    Forum Member Bones42's Avatar
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    We use/do VES, never heard the Spray part...

    We don't have the SOG written yet, but working on them.

    Advice? Stay safe. Train on it, drill on it, practice on it.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure what "Vent Enter Spray and Search" means is *not* anyway related to Vent-Enter-Search tactics.

    I don't like the V-E-S-S term, since it's probably confusing with VES. However, V-E-S-S is what the majority of the nation's fire service does.

    -- Vent the fire, usually through a window if not already vented.
    -- Enter the building with a hoseline
    -- Spray water to extinguish the fire
    -- Search afterwards

    Ya, I'm sure a lot of people are getting ready to type, "Oh the humanity, what about the people trapped!" and all I can say is when you have 2 or 3 guys to launch an attack with, you don't have the luxury to search ahead of a hoseline. So the priority is confine/control the fire first.

    In most fires in most buildings in most communities, V-E-S-S is effective and usually uses fog/PPV tactics. Places with the staffing and need to however have great success with true VES with aggressive venting and searching independent of the hose team -- those places use non-mechanical ventilation and solid bores to minimize danger to the search crews from pushing fire or steam.

  5. #5
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    Based on how we run manpower and Eng.'s, Truck's. Yes vent in clearing out a window of a room and contents fire first. If unknown of ppl trapped Attack Team does a S/R on the way to the room and contents. If known ppl trapped we probably will go in without a line to make the grab. Once you attack the fire and I have been there and that floor generally turns into a steam bath and if you have victims you have 4-6 minutes to get them out and that can be tough to to do. Otheriwse you are doing body recoveries. I do my best to try and clear a floor of victims before making an attack if possible just for that reason, trying to find ppl in that 4-6 minute can be damn difficult in heavy smoke conditions. Yeah we have a thermal imager thats another story if it is working.

    GOD Bless FDNY and All of the lost Brother's and their families.

    FTM, PTB, RFB

  6. #6
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    Default Reading is fundamental!

    I about put my foot in my mouth, Dal I thought you were saying they were the same! Upon further reading, I see that everyone seems to be jivin' with my thoughts about VES. Billy, drop the SPRAY because water is being used by the ENGINE, the TRUCK is VESing, and chances are they are doing it before the ENGINE is even ready to get at the fire. Dalmatian is right on! VESS is what is done! MOST LIKELY with misuse of PPV! VES and PPV dont MIX! And manpower is prolly to blame for us not getting ahead of the fire. Billy look at it this way, what happens to the fire when the ENGINE is pushing in with the nozzle? Its moving, and the only way COMMAND and the TRUCK (who is responsible for RESCUE!) can be sure there is NO ONE where the fire WILL BE by the time the ENGINE finishes is to LOOK (read VES)! Unless of course, like Dal said, you're content with the status quo of searching AFTERWARDS! If you can't get ahead, at least cut down on pushing bad stuff by using a straight pattern. Remember, LOCATING THE FIRE is more important than ANY other fireground action, if you can then put it out, you pretty much solve the life hazard issue...

    PS ENGINE and TRUCK are relative terms: One need not step off a rig with a ladder on top to be able to vent, search, rescue, cut utilities, etc...

    Zach
    ...if you put the handline in the right spot, you won't have to jump out the window...
    -Andy "Nozzles", SQ18, 9-11-01

  7. #7
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    we go in and search the rooms with fire first. drag a charged line in and do the best search you can as close to the fire as you can. if victims are found then remove them from harm first.then go back in with fresh members if possible and full stream the fire source. we have limited personnel and our fire flow formulas almost always come up to 2500 gallons unless we have a second bell and then it goes up to 4000.
    One foot in Hell and waiting on water !!!

  8. #8
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    Regardless of staffing, flows, SOG/SOP's, training levels, and other limiting factors, I believe the mission statement (whether or not you have one) outlines the priorities of nearly every fire service. The priorities are to: 1)Save lives, 2)Protect property, and 3)Protect the environment. If we attack first and search second are we getting our priorities turned around? I know each situation is different and the situations we are met with may dictate which is performed first.

    Staffing levels of some departments are so low (career and volunteer) that the first in companies may only have three people. Dangerous for the firefighters and the occupants. These departments will be hard-pressed to "V.E.S.S." or "V.E.S.". Two in/two out? 1710/1720? A three man crew can conduct a search and rescue but not suppress.

    How about changing a couple of things around. Instead of VentEnterSpraySearch, why not VentEnterSearchSpray?

    A search team with a hoseline (this may be better for a new thread) will stop searching to suppress a fire - I'm guilty of this too. If there's fire and I have a nozzle it's a given that I will stop my search duties and switch to suppression. Even if it's for "just a minute", does a victim have that much time? Time is still important to saveable victims. Time spent suppressing a fire may not be the time a victim has to offer.

    In any case, hopefully minimum staffing will get turned around and enough personnel will be available for all fireground operations to be coordinated and conducted at the same time. Our world isn't perfect but make due with what you've got and keep it safe.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Dalmatian90's Avatar
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    Time spent suppressing a fire may not be the time a victim has to offer.

    Can't rescue them if the fire flashes over you. Can't rescue them if the building falls down around you. Really screwed if that fire you just passed burns through your hoseline behind you...

    You're searching for life, but you've found fire -- and fire is what is putting the life in jeopardy.

    If you find fire, you do what you can to protect life -- close a door, hold it back with a PW Can if you have one. If you find fire and you have a nozzle, you certainly want to open up and knock it down!

  10. #10
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    Default Vent/entry/search

    with all due respect...guys,
    The concept here is vent, entry, and search... You are looking to relieve the conditions that would be fatal to any possible victems
    as well make it tenable for yourselves... Venting should never take place without charged lines in place, ready should flashover occur. The searching in extreme conditions of high heat and no visability is STILL important and feasable, and more dangerous to all, especially the victems....

    Typically, VES is a guy from the truck or rescue who would be opening up to (hopefully) make things better for his entry into the fire apartment, Find a victem and remove same,
    and His venting would create a place for the incoming line to "drive the fire" OUT to.

    In a less than "City" assignment (manpowerwise)...

    Your not talking about the fifth man on the first due truck who knows the drill everyjob is about the same....

    so, to refine, the Real concept, with a 4 people on scene and ready to enter....
    the handline would be stretched as far as possible, then charged, while manned, the VES team would be told the lines in place, the would vent a window from the exterior, nearist the actual fire (oh I know, I know), then find a similar means to gain access, and conduct a search, begining from the fire room and working out from that point, once the primary search is complete, the hose line team is comunicated to advance, and once the seat of the fire is found, then the nozzle is opened...

    How do you do all this with limited manpower? and have a back up line in place? etc and RIT and ... it goes on and on how do you Know where the fire apartment, room is ?
    in some cases its easy , in others not so easy right?


    Avoid The "MOTH" syndrome...
    if you have the >main body of fire and your inside in position to put the fire out<
    there is nothing worse then the dope outside fluttering around the vented opening screaming OMG theres fire in there, as he pushes it back in your face... Jim

    <I have equal time 13 years as an active volunteer firefighter and 13 years on the job, 26 years total, And have never been in the newspaper yet... cause reporters aint inside...

  11. #11
    Member FDirish's Avatar
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    Default NFA Command & Control Course

    Look into a command & control course thru NFA. All fires have a basic tactic- Rescue, Exposures, Control, Extinguishment, Ventilation, Salvage. Prioritize and mitigate as needed. Remember, companies can perform multiple tasks as they make entry. Keep It Safe & Simple
    celer et audax

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