1. #1
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    Unhappy Will some please explain.........

    Can someone on these posts please explain the difference between a cadet and a junior firefighter and why in gods name are they being allowed to act and work like fully trained fire fighters. Why would any department or responsible adult allow these kids to be placed in a situation that could injure or kill them ......??

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    The difference between cadets & juniors? No clue. But the statement about us being able to act and work like fully trained FF's is completely untrue, at least in our department. We (well, I, since I'm the only junior) aren't allowed to enter a working structure fire or any hazardous condition, because of the insurance.
    These are my opinions, not those of my career department, my volunteer company, or my affiliates. And by the way, I'm not a Junior.

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    There is no way in any OSHA state (like CT) that they can do everything an adult can do. For example, they cannot go into IDLH atmospheres, go over a certain height, use power equipment, etc, etc, etc, etc...

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    ADZE

    Then what are they allowed to do? Some of the posts that I have been reading give the impression that they are being allowed to enter IDLH's and other dangerous situtaions and do rescue and fire fighting is this true ? ......and if so Why?

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    They can still do many things...fight brush fires, attend to patients, extrication with hand tools, roll the hose (hehe...had to add that one), throw ladders to the building, fill support roles on the fireground, overhaul (if atmosphere isn't IDLH), etc... a good junior (cadet, explorer, whatever) program tends to be very useful on the scene 90% of the time and provides great training for future firefighters.

    Like I said in another post, around half of our firefighters are former juniors (including a majority of our officers). Of course, most of them were juniors before the rules became stricter. Our program has been around for 31 years now and has produced many great firefighters (who now are in VFDs and career spots). The downside is that almost every program at one point or another (sometimes more) sees the "mistakes"...the ones that should not have been let in.

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    The Boy Scouts of America Explorer Program is what departments in my local area are using. BSA covers insurance for their time in the program. They receive full training and afterwards can ride the engines/trucks/ambulances and do many normal duties. BSA covers them in this capacity, and in fact encourages this. One aspect is after they are trained, they can be a full firefighter the day they turn 18. The term cadets or juniors seems to be terminology. Explorer means something else entirely.

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    Originally posted by btfire
    The term cadets or juniors seems to be terminology. Explorer means something else entirely.
    True...Explorers (police, fire, etc) are through the BSA while Juniors or Cadets tend to be just through the individual FD.

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    I have seen some fire department new hires called cadets while they are at the academy.

    But in this case I think the work Cadet and Junior are one in the same. Junior members are those in a department that are under the age of 18 and can not fight fire because of labor restrictions. They are permitted to train for the future. I know that in Virginia, those under the age of 18 supposedly are not allowed to fight fire without the minimum of firefighter 1 and their haz mats. Whether that happens all the time is another story.

    I am associated with an explorer program in Florida that is exactly that. A program sanctioned by the BSA. These are young adults interested in the fire service. We train them and they can ride as observers after meeting certain criteria but the do NOT actively fight fire. When they turn 18 they are theoretically prepared to enter the fire academy and get their certifications.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    I think it has already been pointed out, but I'll state it again. Each department may have a different definition of what a "Junior" is.

    In my Department a "Junior" member may range in Age from 16 to 21-22.
    (Without going into great detail - the high end of the scale is due to a political decision on how to classifiy members we get for 9 months a year from the local private college)

    So now why would I tell a 18+ year old person who has propper training that they can't enter an IDLH atmosphere simply because someone back down the line didn't want them to be able to vote on what color to paint the station doors ?

    Therefore - our "Juniors" are allowed to operate to the full extent of their abilities AND training - within the confines of the law.

    I.E. a 16 y.o. Jr w/ FF I will be allowed on the fireground - but he'll be a "Gopher" whereas a 21 y.o. Jr w/ FF I may very well be packed up and on the Attack Line.

    However I do agree 110% that anyone allowing an under age person to work in an IDLH environment (other than within the "controlled" coditions of training - WITH GREAT supervision) should be shot into the street & druged (or something like that)
    Take Care - Stay Safe - God Bless
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    Our Juniors are Explorers through the BSA -- I loved carrying that card around when I was a Junior-Explorer! They can join the dept. when they're 17/Senior in High School. They can't do much in terms of fighting fires (not that we get any anyway). They "drill" with hose and stuff and participate in parades/fundraisers. Our Probies are anyone who joins and who has a yellow helmet shield. Usually lasts from 1 - 2 years (I think, it's been a while) or at the descretion of the officers if they get their FF 1 classes done and have "been around".
    "When I was young, my ambition was to be one of the people who made a difference in this world. My hope is to leave the world a little better for my having been there."
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    There is no way in any OSHA state (like CT) that they can do everything an adult can do.

    OSHA or no OSHA, there's no way they can do everything an 18 year old can do. (Is an 18 year old an adult? )

    The basis of prohibiting certain fireground activities by members under 18 years old is found in the Fair Labor Standards Act, Section 3:

    (l)Oppressive child labor means a condition of em-
    ployment under which...(2) any employee between the ages of sixteen and
    eighteen years is employed by an employer in any occupa-
    tion which the Secretary of Labor 10 shall find and by order
    declare to be particularly hazardous for the employment of
    children between such ages or detrimental to their health
    or well-being;


    That's the law of the land whether your state has adopted OSHA or not.

    I don't believe there has ever been a fire-service specific ruling by the Secretary of Labor. But certain activities by other rulings are too considered hazardous for those under 18.

    These include
    -- Work in an IDLH atmosphere (i.e. you can train to use a respirator, but you can't work anywhere one is required)
    -- Work from height (ladders)
    -- Work with Power cutting tools (Saws, hurst tools)

    The regulations regarding 16-18 year olds are just like we were say, a supermarket. You can hire a 16 year old, but you can't have them do certain things like work in the Deli with powered cutting machines, till their 18.

    -----------------------------------
    What we find is a lot of our younger members (sub-18) end up taking their MRT (first responder) or EMT class while in High School. Then taking Firefighter I after they turn 18.

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    Talking

    Ok This is a cool subject to talk about:
    In my Volunteer fire dept. we have jr firefighters. They do not go into burn buildings, but they do train, they particpate in monthly meetings, monthly training and monthly ce training. We do not beg for them to come to meetings, or training, they want to come. I am also the Training Coordinater of my county and I put on training in my county, I ask my jr's if they would like to help and if they do not have any plans, they jump at the idea. Also, in thne state of Texas, if you have any training and you train and you are under the age of 18, you keep track of the traing and if you accumale enough hrs, you will be eligible to be a basic firefighter. Also, we have in our state if you want to go into a burn house and you have a perants consent and we have a copy, the jr firefighter can into a burn house. Mind you there will be smoke but no fire. These are my comments feel free to post back


    Mike Yanelli
    BCFFA Training Coordinator
    Northwest Quadrant Director

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    Very well explained Adze and Dalmation. But I do have to say one thing, I can't believe that kid for Pittsville didn't post on this forum. He posts his vast knowledge on all other types of information, but not on the one about juniors/cadets? I thought he would shine on this one.

    And just so there is no confusion, I'm not picking on or bashing the kid. I'm just making a statement, so everyone who reads and thinks so, take a breath, and if you think about it you'll agree with me.

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    The above is my opinion only and doesn't reflect that of any dept/agency I work for, deal with, or am a member of.

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    Give it a little time ALSfirefighter it's a weekend, and he usually does most of his posts when he is in school.LOL Go figure. My teachers woulda kicked my A**!

    I can't believe that kid for Pittsville didn't post on this forum

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    SHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    He's almost as bad as Larry...mention him and sooner or later he will show up...

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    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Thats right shhhh Dont jinx us..haha I'm sure he'll post here sooner or later.. Or maybe the topic isnt interesting to him?? Go figure...
    Andrew
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    With Westville we can train with the Firefighter but not allowed to go in a burning building, but we can get trained on the camara. (smoke house). We could help with MVC's. so we could due things like the Firefighters
    Rob aka Squinty

    The Fighting Seventy-Third

    Westville Fire Department
    Gloucester County
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    You definately got the almost part right, brother. lol

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    I will not post anymore. Yall do not like other peoples opinions other than your buddies. Bye Larry

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    Exclamation SHHHHH...Don't say the P-word!

    Man, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that Mr. know-it-all, junior, cadet, super-wannbe firefighter drives insane in here.

    I know that if I was on the department that he associates himself with, and I had read some of the garbage that he has posted with MY dept's name on it, he may NEVER be allowed to set foot in the station again. Even if his bicycle tire needed air I think I would advise him to pedal on. Somebody needs to reign that kid in and I wish I was the one able to do it.

    I hate to be a basher, but he makes it sooooo easy!
    Lt. D. Gordon
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    Greendale, IN

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    Red face CIAO!!!!!!!!!

    Ciao Larry!!!!!!!

    Easy boys and girls...I hear the W-Team trudging down the hallway with chains and padlocks for this thread.

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    Hey gordo actually its a "goped" whatever that means.. he said it on another post...
    Andrew
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    New Jersey

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    I'm not sure of the difference in a Junior and a Cadet because of age limits, but never the less, No CHILD should be allowed to perform all of the duties that we do. There is a time and a place for them to handle a hose, climb a ladder,......ect.......ect. Don't get me wrong a fire scene is a great place to learn some of the finer aspects, but not while the FULLY TRAINED PERSONNEL are trying to do their jobs. Make'em wait till things calm down and then take'em in and show them where the fire started and how you fought it, and why you chose to fight it that way. I'm not saying leave them at the station, let'em handle Rehab, and SCBA refilling while things are still poppin. That will also free up trained personnel that can be attacking the fire.

    Just my opinion, We all got a different one
    Capt. Walker

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    Capt2103 just described what it`s like my department, we`ll be at the call of course but we`ll be outside changing bottles, setting up rehab area, raising ladders, setting up lights, etc. At the last fire I was using the booster line to cool the tons of junk being thrown out of the attic window...stuff like that. At a car fire, or brush fire we`ll probably be able to try out the nozzle. After a fire, is when we can go in and take a look around, maybe pull down a few pieces of ceiling, unfortunetly I haven`t had the chance to do that yet because the last fire I was at came in at like 4:30AM, by 6 things were winding down, and I probably could have taken a walk inside but my Dad handed command over to the assistant chief for 5 minutes, drove me home and made me go to school.

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    Coming to a forum near you....

    "How many and what kind of lights do you have on your goped?"

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