1. #1
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    Default High Rise Hose Packs

    If your department makes hose packs (1.75 or 2.5) to use in high rise operations, how do you pack it. Straight flakes, donut rolls? We are looking for a compact way to pack 50 - 100 foot hose packs so we can carry them into our standpipe operations.
    Any ideas?

  2. #2
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    Ours is 150' of 1.75" rolled in a rubberized bag w/ straps.
    Member IACOJ & IACOJ EMS Bureau
    New England FOOL
    "LEATHER FOREVER"
    As always these are strictly my own opinions and views

  3. #3
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    We use a double layer fold of 50' of 21/2in. light weight hose. The folds are done so that the nozzle is on top of one layer and can be stretched out in one direction. The coupling is on the other layer and can be stretched in the other direction. The hose pack is secured with straps that we purchased from the U.S. Postal Service. Found these to be excellent straps,easy to use,nylon strap,and have metal clips.

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    I honestly can`t remember the name of our pack, but it`s exactly what you want to do, I`ll get you more info ASAP. The hose we use in the high rise pack is like the trash lines, no rubber liner inside which really cuts down on the weight. It`s all held together with a shoulder strap, but we don`t do it the way some people do where it hangs to your feet, that`s a real pain. Of course we have no high rises, so it`s only there in case we end up downtown. The pack was recommended by one of ours guys who`s with the FDNY.

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    We used straight flake although some engines did it their own way. I always assumed there was a better way but after seeing different methods, I think the straight flake was adequate.

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    Default What's a high rise?

    We don't have high rises, but we have some extended reaches to beach front bungalows. We have 2 1/2" deadlay (usually around 400') on back of each truck. We then carry a vinyl bag with 2 - 100' 1 3/4" attack lines. Each line is 2 lengths with a combo nozzle and they are attached to a 2 1/2" gated wye. We will usually have 2 guys in SCBA carry the bag close to the fire, open the bag, and pull one of the 1 3/4" lines to the fire. At the same time, 2 other guys will be pulling the 2 1/2" from the truck to where the bag has been dropped. 1 of those guys hooks the 2 1/2 to the wye while the other guy takes the second 1 3/4 line. This has worked well for us as long as everyone remember's their job. It allows us to get an attack line plus a backup line in use fairly quick and should there be a problem with the first line, another is available.

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    My dept. has 2 100' straight flaked 1 3/4" and 1 100' straight flaked
    2 1/2". Straight flaked hose makes it easier to put it over you shoulder or SCBA to carry it up stairs. Also easier to deploy. We also have a highrise bag with a wye, hydrant wrench, two hose straps,
    nozzle, spanners, and chocks. We have quite a few buildings that could qualify as hi rise. We also use them for occupancies that are not accesible by preconnects. Versatile. Each dept has to tailor to their own needs.

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    Default high rise pack

    My dept uses the Milwakee strap for our high rise pack. We use 1.75" hose. You can find the strap in Galls magazine I beleive. take care and be safe.
    GOD BLESS THOSE WHO WENT BEFORE US

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    Cool

    Ours are 150', 1 3/4" some are rubber jacketed lite wt. high rise, some are still cloth jacketed. It is flat layed about 3' lengths in a nylon type bag. Although we are moving away from using the bags and just using backboard straps.
    Stay Safe & Bring 'em Home!
    Eddie C.
    I.A.F.F. Local 3008

    "Doin' it for lives n' property"

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and not that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

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    Ok let's talk "turkey" about standpipe hose and in particular so called high rise packs.
    1. High rise is the term used to describe two types of construction - each dependent on intended occupancy of the structure.
    The first is APARTMENT OR DWELLING USE - these are relatively a simple fire dependent on wind conditions and ventilation. However, without going into the simple tactics, surfice it to say there are two types of fires in these babies. It all depends if the apartment door of the fire is OPEN or CLOSED. If it is open, the first hose team is going to get burned to some degree and have to be relieved after the apartment is vented to the outside by horizontal ventilation. In either case the only choice is 2 1/2 inch hose. No matter the heat condition you have to be protected as best as possible and move the line forward (the trick - if you can't go forward you have the wrong amount of water - the wrong size hose!
    The second type fire and the one most devestating in terms of access and control and all the other problems is HIGH RISE OFFICE BUILDING.
    If I were to ask any one in hundreds of classes that I do, "Given a considerable amount of fire in a 100 x 200 supermarket fire in the early morning hours, what hose line do you stretch in preparation to making an attempt at entry?" The answer is always 2 1/2 inch hose.
    "Why then would you stretch less to TWO FULLY INVOLVED SUPERMARKETS OF WIDE OPEN SPACE HANGING HUNDREDS OF FEET IN THE AIR," I ask! "And you fight this thing through a 36 inch door from an elevator lobby.

    Standpipes are designed by law to be NOT MORE than 125 feet from a 20 foot reach of a hose stream. If you are finding that you need more than 150 feet of hose you are connected to the wrong standpipe riser.
    You must get three 50 foot lengths of hose to the connection below the fire floor along with the nozzle and fittings that you require in the district that you respond to. Valve wheels and adapters and fittings are usually stolen for drug money so you need to be basically a plumber with a bag of fittings which means that 4 firefighters (one officer and three must arrive at the connection before a proper line is stretched, charged operated.
    The teams that use small hose are usually the ones that don't have a high rise fire yet! They are usually the same departments that carry pick-headed axes, 4 and 8 foot hooks and other useless stuff.
    Write me on this one!
    Last edited by 111truck; 04-16-2002 at 08:42 AM.

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    Our High rise pack have,

    100' 1" 3/4 light weight hose
    12' 2 1/2" hose
    2 1/2" to 2 1 1/2" gated wye
    2 spanner wrenchs
    1 pipe wrench
    10 door chocks

    held together by a Milwakee strap. It is a very good set up, it comes recomend by the instructors I had at the New State Fire Academy.

    Jason Geary
    Maplewood Vol Fd
    City of Cohoes FD
    Local 2562
    NYRRT-1
    Jason Geary
    City of Cohoes FD
    www.cohoesfirefighters.com
    local #2562
    NYRRT-1

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    Hi brother,
    I taught as a guest at Montour Falls NY Fire Academy (New York State Fire Academy).
    In answer to your high rise pack - it is Western oriented and looks great.
    But anything you say or do is Great if you don't have fires!
    If you have one=half of a floor of a high rise office building involved you are "cooked"
    High rise residence is another fire for another analysis. If you get the two mixed up in tactics and strategic goals you will be in trouble all the time

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    111truck, you must be one of the wisest people on here. Your post made me smile. My station sits below a 40 story hotel with buildings such as the Enron Towers and other 60-80 story High-rises all around. Why, in the aftermath of all the tragic-ending high-rise fires in the past decade, do people continue to carry a knife to a gun fight (for lack of a better analogy)? One Meridian Plaza ring a bell? We lost three that day. Let's learn from their loss. Many High-rise buildings use little things called Pressure Reducing Devices, such as PRV's and PRD's, to regulate the pressure throughout the building. They limit us to such pressures of 65 psi or less. In other words, you can't pump more pressure into the building. These simply will not opperate a 1 3/4" handline with an automatic fog nozzle. These set ups need 100 psi at the nozzle. A 2 1/2" with smooth bore needs only 50 psi at the tip and loses far less in friction loss. We carry 150' 2 1/2" w/ stack-tips, water-thief, bag of tools (spanners, rope, etc.), irons, 60 min scba, 2 spare cyl.

    Tony Riggens

  14. #14
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    When I was still a FF/NREMT-I, we carried two types of high rise packs on my department. The first was 50' of 1 3/4" in Memphis rolls. The second was designed to use of the standpipe systems of our larger structures. It consisted of 100' of 2" to a gated wye and then 100' of 1 3/4 attack line and spanner wrenches.
    ***The opinions and beliefs expressed above are mine and mine alone based on my education, training, and personal experiences. In no way do they reflect those of my employer(s), their affiliates, or any professional organizations that I belong to.***

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    Dear Medic,
    I don't know if I am supposed to "answer" comments after my message and what I receive as a "reply" on my email, but I would like to add a couple of notes from my experience to your comments on Standpipe (packs).
    1. Standpipes were installed in buildings by law. They were installed in tall buildings to facilitate two things
    a. Occupants may use a water supply (hose supplied) to hold or control a fire condition for escape, etc. That is the reason for FLOW RESTRICTORS so that the civilian will not be overwhelmed by the quantity of water and its velocity AND the fact that the installed hose was single jacket and usually linen and not able to take higher pressures.
    b. To help fire departments get hose lines in place at upper floors faster and realistically.

    The second reason for standpipes were by law in extremely large buildings (square feet per floor)

    The law stated that standpipes shall be installed in tall buildings that were constructed more than 6 floors or 75 feet. (Hence the reason for depressed floors in apartment houses of 7 stories. The depressed floor is a basement and not a floor = 6 story building and circumvents the law and its intent.)

    Now with all that said (sorry) the second part of the law comes into play - If a standpipe is required to be installed, every part of the structure must be reached by a 20 foot stream from 125 feet of hose! (If the floor area is bigger than that there must be a second riser installed that conforms to the reach law.
    Voila! Eureka!
    That is why we need to take three lengths (150 feet of fire department hose to the connection of choice - usually one floor below the fire.
    Your use of 50 foot rolls and 100 foot packs will get you and the people you want to protect. You simply don't have enough hose unless you use both setups on a single hose line.
    We have lost firefighters in the last few years that ran out of hose line - it is designed that way if you don't account for three lengths of hose.
    Standpipe operations are really simple and designed that way. Fitting manufacturers of flow restrictors screwed it up as did fire departments that allowed manning levels to drop so low that an engine arriving at a high rise type building can't carry enough equipment!
    We have gotten away with too little hose by firefighters that are "too tired" so long that inadequate supply of logistics has become routine. What a shame!

  16. #16
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    Default Standpipe operations

    Having worked in large commercial areas and a response area dense in highrise occupancies both commercial & residential, Standpipe's were second nature. In my unit we had our 1 1/8 tip bored out to 1 1/4" as we realized we wanted a tight pattern with the most water delivery with the least amount of friction loss. You 'd be amazed at what 30 gallons difference will make. As far as suggesting even offhandedly to substitute 1 3/4 is a very poorly thought out idea. You need water your entering a concrete box, water absorbs BTU's and the more water will allow you to enter areas that otherwise would be untentable. The straight bore allows you to keep steam generation to a minimum and gives you the luxury of cooling areas deep within. Friction loss is an issue that weighs heavily on first due units, operating on upper floors were head pressure is minimal and with rated capacity's of 50 lbs common this is crucial.Another suggestion is using a flow meter at the standpipe outlet, some standpipe sprinkler systems are cross connected and it's nice to know you have an idea what your flowing, especially when dealing with a large area occupancy.Lastly before leaving the lobby, determine if the fire floor is served with access stairs you don't want to end up above the fire, and check to see what type stair system your dealing with AKA sissor, return ,or wing.

    Be Safe brothers
    "Knowledge is Power"
    Bill Y

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    Default Re: High Rise Hose Packs - how do you pack it

    We currently pack our high rise in the "metro-pack", a rip off from the wildland firefighting pack. Allows you to charge the single role on a stair landing without flaking....
    It was in that "other" fire sevice trade mag and on their web site.

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    Post HIGH RISE PRESSURE

    Another suggestion is using a flow meter at the standpipe outlet, some standpipe sprinkler systems are cross connected and it's nice to know you have an idea what your flowing, especially when dealing with a large area occupancy.Lastly before leaving the lobby, determine if the fire floor is served with access stairs you don't want to end up above the fire, and check to see what type stair system your dealing with AKA sissor, return ,or wing.
    Are the standard fire pumps in the high-rises you have dealt with horizontal-shaft centrifugal backed with emergency power generators?

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    Default High Rise Law and hoses

    Be careful about lengths of hose and the laws.
    In Uniform Bldg Code (UBC)for the Western US, the distance to exiting requirement was no more than 150 feet i.e. the stairwell. This meant the distance from the standpipe in the stairwell to the most remote corner was no more than 150 feet, however, this was measured through moveable obstructions (tables chairs etc). Therefore you needed to carry 200 feet of hose to reach the corners.

    The 1997 UBC changed that and allows 250 feet to the exit in sprinklered bldg, and 200 feet in unsprinklered bldg. This means that you may need hose of approx 300 feet in length to reach the corners from the standpipe in the stairwell.
    Don't forget the FL (friction loss) in your calculations, especially if you are still trying to use 1 3/4 line.
    Another factor is Pressure Reducing Valves (PRV) which may limit pressure and flows.

    A PRV may limit you to a range of anywhere between 60 and 175 psi and flows between 300gpm and well over 500 gpm.

    My recommendation is to check with the AHJ, (Authority Having Jurisdiction) in your area. Find out history of what was allowed and what will be in there in the future. Preplan your tactics for the worst, and emphasize PREVENTION!
    Scorch

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