1. #1
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    Question Deflating tires for stabilizing a vehicle

    We recently took a extrication course .The course was called the
    carbusters .It certified us through the province of New Brunswick
    (Canada).I though the course went well . One thing I liked was deflating the tires for stabilizing the vehicle . But the police and
    the tow truck drivers didn't agree with it. TO help the police we only deflate when we really have to . To help the tow truck drivers we used clip on air chucks so we can reinflate the tires .I was wondering if anyone had the same problem and what you did .

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    Hey, another Canuck.

    The carbusters series is an alright system. My department has some of their training videos and manuals etc.

    As for deflating the tires, I believe that this discussion has already been brought up on here. Everyone has their preferences for deflating and not deflating, with some even taking the time to write down tire pressure before deflating. About the only thing I can do is let you know what my department does.

    Well, in our books, stabilizing the vehicle and making sure that C-spine is looked after properly is much much higher then what ever the cops need the info for, or the wreaker towing the vehicle. Besides, it isnít our job to figure out what went wrong, who was at fault etc etc, our job is PT care, and you canít do that very well if the vehicle is flopping around while you are cutting it. In addition, wreakers can bring a flat deck or use those portable tire things they put under the wheels when the tires are flat.

    Personally, it sounds like the wreakers are just complaining because the job is a little bit tougher and they might actually have to pull some equipment. And the cops can gather enough information from other sources to figure out what they need without having to check tire pressure.

    Crib and take the tires. That is the best way to stabilize a vehicle in my opinion. If anyone else gives us problems, direct them to the IC and the he, or she, can explain the finer points of PT care related to vehicle stabilization.

    Good luck
    "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

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    Talking Here we go again..

    There are several people here who post with strong arguments on both sides of the issue and I'm sure you'll hear them. In our department, we generally haven't deflated in the past, BUT just recently I got a set of 4 of the air chucks in a little blue(Zmag) pouch and using that method seems to dispel the arguments against tire deflation.
    Just like anything else, another tool in the toolbox, but there's not any question left in my mind that working on an upright resting solidly on your cribbing platform provides a more movement and vibration-free vehicle. How much that affects the overall patient outcome is subject to debate, but it's nice not to have your cribbing working loose during the extrication...

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    Post Deflating tires for stabilizing a vehicle

    It is interesting that you bring up this topic. My dept. has an air compressor on the rescue truck that we primarily use for extrication using air bags. We also use this compressor to put air back in tires after teh extrication process is over.

    Good luck with your outcome on how to handle this!

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    damn, double post....
    "No one ever called the Fire Department for doing something smart..."

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    Someone previously mentioned that this was extensively discussed at a previous time on this forum. As I remember, very strong points were made for both sides. I will say upfront that I am not a proponent of deflation. That is my opinion. I respect those out there who are deflaters and those who are not.

    I thought that maybe I was missing out on something since that whole discussion took place, so I started to pay particular attention to all of the extrication pictures that show up in Photo Stories and the like. I cannot remember one of those where the car, when on its wheels, is stabilized with tire deflation. Most of the time, it appears not to have much cribbing either! Maybe everyone is using it in competitions, but I just am not seeing it on the street.

    Markpery - good luck with whatever style of stabilization you choose. Remember you and your team safety is number one and it is all downhill from there.

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    I am for deflating the tires myself. I won't list the reasons for it as others have covered it.

    As for the pictures fireman 077, I think they may have been what we refer to as rapid extrications. This is a situation of the patient is deemed to be so serious that time is especially critical. When this is the case, we dispense with cribbing(IF POSSIBLE)and go full speed on extraction of the patient.
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    1835wayne - thanks for the feedback. As a 19 year paramedic and BTLS instructor, I appreciate the perils that you speak of requiring rapid extrication. I jouneyed back through the last 7 months of pics and although I saw step-cribbing, I still didn't see flat tires. Of course, pictures don't tell the whole story.

    Thanks again!

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    I have argued this point before and wont get into it now, But will say I deflate tires to deactivate the suspension. My Department does this routinely, will try to get Pics. While it is important to know what "the Standard" is , in other words what every body else is doing. But if we do what everybody else does, then we do not advance. something for you all to think about
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
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    Originally posted by 1835wayne

    As for the pictures fireman 077, I think they may have been what we refer to as rapid extrications. This is a situation of the patient is deemed to be so serious that time is especially critical. When this is the case, we dispense with cribbing(IF POSSIBLE)and go full speed on extraction of the patient.
    Now this should be an interesting post to discuss. What good are you in a "rapid extrication" if you are sloppy, don't properly stabilize the vehicle you are working on, and wind up injuring rescuers or further injuring the victim(s)?? You might need to get started quickly to gain patient access, but I think we should practice doing it the right way EVERY time... while one rescuer is gaining access, others need to be getting the vehicle stabilized!
    Richard Nester
    Orrville (OH) Fire Dept.

    "People don't care what you know... until they know that you care." - Scott Bolleter

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    [edited]Originally posted by MetalMedic

    I think we should practice doing it the right way EVERY time... while one rescuer is gaining access, others need to be getting the vehicle stabilized!
    Metal MEDIC I second that motion! The Effective management of the Rescue Team and it coordination has much more to do with Efficient Rescues than the particular Brand of Rescue tool used! Rich, YOU have my vote on this one
    Rescue is the Art & Science of matching your tools, talents and tricks to needs of our customers!
    Carl D. Avery

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    MetalMedic and Carl have the right of it: if you are going to do the rapid extrication, the vehicle still needs to be cribbed. FF26 and I are from the same Dept, and while the "interior guy" is inside or trying to get in, a team of us are doing a very rapid job of the cribbing. This is standard practice for us regarless of what sort of good or bad shape our PT is. The only difference between the two events is how fast we work together. If we need to do a rapid extrication, then the cribbers do their job that much quicker - however, care to do it right the first time is still just as important as ever - just do it faster. We aim to please, but in as safe a manner as possible, both for PT and rescuer.
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    Here we go again.............................Just kidding. The last time this was brought up there was a long discussion about this between myself and Mr. Avery. I think you have to look at the situation your in and do what has to be done. Wether you decide to deflate or not the one big thing in all of this is that you have done proper stablization. There will be times were deflating may cause you more problems. The one thing I totally disagree about is writing down the tire pressures before I deflate. What a waste of time. And you don't have alot of time to begin with. I'm not there to make the cops and tow drivers happy. And if there worried about causing more damage to the car chances are that it is already totaled anyway. I have deflated tires before. But it is possible to stablize a car without deflating. Do what works for you in that situation. Just like every fire is different every car accident is different and requires a different approach from the last one you were on.

    To Mr. Avery I would like to apologize for my comments from last time, they were disrespectful. We are all one these forums to share knowledge and to learn. I believe Ron Moore really didn't say if he was for deflating or not?
    Last edited by 10-75k; 04-10-2002 at 05:14 PM.
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    Originally posted by 10-75k
    10-75k

    You are right all MVA are different and we do not know
    what kind if stablization we need until we get to the
    scene . The most important thing is patient care.So it
    doesn't matter if we deflate the tires or not as long
    as we stablize the vehicle . Thanks for all the replys
    it was most helpful

    markpery


    ]Here we go again.............................Just kidding. The last time this was brought up there was a long discussion about this between myself and Mr. Avery. I think you have to look at the situation your in and do what has to be done. Wether you decide to deflate or not the one big thing in all of this is that you have done proper stablization. There will be times were deflating may cause you more problems. The one thing I totally disagree about is writing down the tire pressures before I deflate. What a waste of time. And you don't have alot of time to begin with. I'm not there to make the cops and tow drivers happy. And if there worried about causing more damage to the car chances are that it is already totaled anyway. I have deflated tires before. But it is possible to stablize a car without deflating. Do what works for you in that situation. Just like every fire is different every car accident is different and requires a different approach from the last one you were on.

    To Mr. Avery I would like to apologize for my comments from last time, they were disrespectful. We are all one these forums to share knowledge and to learn. I believe Ron Moore really didn't say if he was for deflating or not? [/B]

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    Talking CLARIFICATION

    Our SOP on a "rapid" extrication is to at least use step chocks.
    If we are going to have to roll the dash or get more in depth than flapping the roof or popping a door, we crib as much as needed.
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    Lightbulb

    A thought for your "Good Idea" file:

    We normally deflate tires to settle the chassis onto the step chocks. What you might think about is that we use tire stem valve tools to deflate the tires. Very quick and easy. We can then put the valves back in after we're done to facilitate vehicle removal, and we carry spare valves in case we lose one.

    We have plumbed a standard air quick connect into the air brake system on all our vehicles. This allows us to simply plug in an air hose to quickly and easily refill the tires. The cops love it, as do the wreckers. It allows us to clear the scene much quicker, reducing Firefighter exposure to traffic.

    It also gives us an alternate air supply for Air Bag operations, just in case...

    Regards,

    Tim O'Connell
    www.rescue42.com
    Last edited by TimatRescue42; 04-12-2002 at 02:55 PM.

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