Why are Volunteers elected?

[Dalmatian90]

Jay, what exactly is your question?

First you post:

Understood. However what I am asking is where did it originate and what are its strengths? Not looking to poke holes, just want to understand.

Then you post:

quote:
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Where it originated and it strengths are the same as my original answer -- the same reason a city council or President is elected.
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Dal - Your answer is off base but I respect it. The strengths are certainly not the same, in my opinion. It is ludicrous, in any form, to compare electing council members and fire officers. We do not elect politicians based on "over-all qualifications", but based on the popularity of the candidate,

My answer in *no way* was off base.

You asked where it originated -- it originates in the popular election our leaders. In case you missed it in school, we are not a monarchy like the country we fought a civil war to break away from back in the 18th century.

In a monarchy, power flows from a (more or less) hereditary leader and others with hereditary powers, and they appoint minions as neccessary.

In a democracy, power flows up from the people. The strengths and weaknesses in elections of political leaders are the same as work leaders.

The heritage of elections in volunteer fire departments flow from two historical sources.

One strong tradition was that of "Town Meeting" or similiar bodies in America where voters had minute control of their officials. Until the middle 20th century, much of small town New England "elected" most of their officials right down to dog-catcher, town Justice of the Peace, and Prosecuter at a town meeting. In many parts of the country, the election of judges, sheriffs, and prosecuters continues. Perhaps you can call it micro-management by the masses, but as I said before even Militia officers would be elected by their troops. At the time when many fire departments were being formed, it was accepted practice for a group of people to gather, discuss an issue, make a decision, and elect a group of officials to carry it out.

The second tradition comes out of England itself in the Corporation. Shareholders elect the Directors and Officers of a corporation. While many large corporations have sham elections that fill the requirements of the law if not the spirit, in smaller corporations owned by a family or small group of shareholders corporate elections often are important. In an incorporated, non-profit fire department the membership fills the role of shareholders in a profit company.

Are elections about popularity? Heck yeah -- there about who most people feel are best qualified for the job.

If we do not elect politicians based on their overall qualification what do we elect them on?

People who feel popularity and qualification are not equivelant usually have different values for what "qualities" they're looking for. You may not consider someone "qualified" but there popularity means they have the qualities those people are looking for.

[JayTL]

Dal - I am certainly in no mood to quarrel. I know history very well and was attempting to draw out from firefighters their feelings about electing officers. I appreciate your response though the tone is a bit much. It would be a source of enjoyment to evicerate your arguement but lets take it to email. However I respect your response, such as it is.




So let me start over and ask a simple question that Shammrock and a few others seemed to have understood.





Why do volunteers elect officers?

[MalahatTwo7]

Here's a small town answer: initially we do not nominate or elect our Chief or officers until they have "been approved" by the Regional District during an initial interview/review board. To get to that point there is both a time prerequisit as well as a training/experience level to be obtained. If District does not support the individual, then they are not in the running. Once "approved", then it goes to vote amongst the Station membership as to who is elected for Chief, Capt, Training, etc. We hold these elections every two years, and yes it can come down to a popularity contest in some cases. However, we look at it this way: if we select a bonehead, then we can "deselect" him too. So far, for the most part selection has been based on who is best for the job. I for one will not follow the lead of someone that I feel is unsafe. Hopefully it will always be that way.

[responder_442]

hi
AS AN OFFICER WITH OUR VOLUNTEER FIRE DEPT(2ND LT) I WAS NOMINATED BY MEMBERS, WENT THRU AN APPLICATION PROCESS AND INTERVIEW WITH THE OTHER OFFICERS.
ACTUALLY I LIKED THIS PROCESS BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN BE PICKED BY A CHIEF AND OTHER MEMBERS DON'T HAVE A SAY. THIS WAY SEVERAL WERE PICKED AS CHOICES AND THEN INTERVIEWED AND MOST QUALIFIED WAS PICKED.

AS AN OFFICER I WAS MANDATED TO TAKE LEADERSHIP SECTIONAL SCHOOL CLASSES AS WELL AS FIRE DETERMINATION CLASSES.
I LIKE THIS PROCESS AS DOES THE REST OF OUR 30 MEMBERS ON OUR DEPT.

[Bones42]

Malahat Two-7

they have "been approved" by the Regional District during an initial interview/review board

Out of curiousity, what knowledge does this Regional District have regarding firefighting? Are they firefighters? Not putting anyone down, I am really curious. I have seen other posts that have their officers going through a "screening" committee, but not had anyone state that committee's fire knowledge. If they are firefighters, that sounds like a decent idea, if they are simply politicians, then would you really want them determining fire officers or would you rather have firefighters?

Again, not saying any idea is good, bad, or worse...I am getting more curious about this process.

[StayBack500FT]

I believe it's started in small towns as almost a "tribal" thing. The membership would gather to nominate the ones the thought were best suited for the job. Nominations were followed by elections as a vote of confidence in the skills and abilities of a chosen candidate. That person would then be the leader of the organization. In its purest form I think this is what was intended by elections in the fire service.

[DeputyChiefGonzo]

While I am a career firefighter, this is my take on the question.

Some volunteer departments elect their officers because of tradition. While the position of company officer of Chief can be a popularity contest, most departments require that the candidates meet a minimum of requirements: experience, number of drills attended and graded, Firefighter I/II, Fire Officer 1, and they have to take a test to prove their knowledge. Many communities also have another check and balance...the personnel administrator, town manager, etc.

Some elect the Chief and then he in turn chooses his command staff and company officers, once again, most FD's that are progressive will have requirements that the candidates have to meet, they also have same checks and balances stated above.

There are some volunteer fire departments that are still the stone age and run by the "old townies" who refuse to change....in a lot of these departments you see a pattern...the chiefs of both the PD and FD have the same last name, their aides are their kids (at a fire scene, they have the cleanest gear and look like Dr. Evil and Mini-me!), the title is handed down from father to son, the company officers are "son/daughter of", "nephew/niece of" or because "I'm the Chief, it ain't broke, and I ain't gonna fix it!". Some of these are run more like a social clubs...like "Joe Rockhead's Volunteer Fire Department from the Flintstones.

Before anyone gets a wedgie in their underwear over my observations... there are career departments that operate the same
way. College Buff knows of a career Department in Rhode Island that has had the same chief for 30+ years who runs his FD like it's his own and feels he is not accountable to anyone. I won't go into detail, it's his story and I'll let him tell it.

[Ten8_Ten19]

The selection process has all the officer corpse involved

LT13...are these active members?

[truckie_ladderco_147]

Its all good Gonzo we still like ya here any how we have appointed chief and asst chief plus some other officers (safety and day captain)but capts(two)are elected.Felt it was a good way to keep those that polish the districts apples from getting set up cushy jobs where they can say its my way or the highway.You know the ones they dont like anything new or to drill so if you argue with them they whine and get ****y.Imagine them for your officers and tell me why it is so hard to get vollies in compaines like that! I was there at one time! Chiefs kids were capt and lt.Asst chiefs kid could do no wrong.Everyone else if you were not a "golden boy" you were not included in anything.Never invited to all member parties and only went to one christmas party.All because i asked questions about drilling one night.Our officers have to be on a total of 2 years but we might up it to 5.

[JayTL]

Gonzo - As usual a witty and insightful post. In a career department of 230+ members we had a Chief who had a father who was Chief Supervising Engineer and a brother who was a Captain. An interview was conducted for battalion Chief and the Chiefs brother, ahead of 20 senior Captains, was promoted to Bat Chief. The interview board consisted of the Fire Chief and the Supervising Engineer. So in that interview was father and two sons and "little" brother was promoted. We were not shocked!

[FireFighterMO]

But where did this Chief get his degree?

[Dalmatian90]

Dal - I am certainly in no mood to quarrel. I know history very well and was attempting to draw out from firefighters their feelings

Interesting statement from someone who has changed their name on the board 3 times in less than a month Boxalarm/Old Fric/JayTL.

I think it's called Trolling.

I'll stop feeding the trolls now.

[LACAPT]

10-8 10-19, we have 4 capts. 4 lts. a platoon chief and an assistant chief. the later 2 members being 30yr+ veterans who are active but are mainly there for there political savy when dealing with the politicians. The captains and lts are front line tactical officers who participate in all aspects of fire fighting and training. The chief and deputy chief are the only paid full time officers on the department. All of the officers have been appointed to their positions.

[CollegeBuff]

Fire Chief Mruk, in tense meeting, tells residents he welcomes outside review

BY NICOLE GESUALDO
Journal Staff Writer

COVENTRY -- Several residents yesterday called for an independent examination of the Anthony Fire Department's finances and safety practices, citing a need to know whether the station is run properly, and Chief Stanley Mruk said he was willing.

Mruk has recently been criticized by department employees, who have reactivated their union and pushed for better working conditions. They claim the department's policies and practices need a major overhaul, and they say Mruk has unfairly punished workers who lead the union. [17 paid FF's, 15-2 vote in favor of unionizing. -CB].

At a regular department meeting yesterday, firefighters and a handful of taxpayers grilled Mruk about his firefighting methods, his use of district money to pursue lawsuits against certain employees and his management of the station's equipment and staff.

After an hour of often tense exhanges with Mruk, residents Joseph Tatro and Paul Caianiello told Mruk they wanted independent audits of the district's firefighting procedures and financial records.

"I'm asking for actual audits," Caianiello said. "As a taxpayer, I think we need to know where the money is being spent."

"I want to know what's on hand, what you are spending on legal fees, how much you have in the coffers, and what your future expenses are," he added.

Mruk said he had no problem with bringing in outside auditors.

"I think it's a good idea," he said. "To begin with, I'll have to find out if OSHA is involved, if the [National Fire Prevention Association] is involved, if the state fire marshal is involved. I'll do it."

The chief also accepted an offer from David Gorman, president of the Washington Fire District's firefighters union, to assemble a committee of safety officers from all seven Coventry fire districts to visit the station and perform a detailed safety audit.

"I would be interested in that," Mruk said.

Mruk, who has been Anthony fire chief for three decades, has repeatedly denied allegations that he runs the station in an unsafe or inappropriate way. He has contended that firefighters have raised a fuss to make a case for their fledgling union and that he has been unfairly targeted.

"There's a lot of lies and innuendoes that are going around," Mruk said when he opened the meeting. He said he hoped the session would help him bring out the truth about the fire station.

The firefighters and residents requested records and direct proof from Mruk.

They asked to see rescue reports to determine if, as firefighters have alleged, workers without proper qualifications handle calls for which advanced life support-certified rescuers are needed. Mruk said the records were locked in a cabinet to which he didn't have the key.

Caianiello asked Mruk to stage a drill and summon some volunteers from home to see how long it would take them to respond. Firefighters have alleged the response time for volunteers could hurt the district's ability to handle calls; Mruk has vehemently disagreed. But Mruk declined to stage the drill.

Some residents asked to view the department's operating procedures and breakdowns of how its money is spent. Mruk said he could get these documents, but not on such short notice. He offered to collect the information and get it to the taxpayers at a later date.

"You don't give me an agenda," he said, "but you give me a bunch of questions, and you want answers?"

In addition to agreeing to the audits, Mruk did make a major concession to the firefighters' demands. He said he would establish automatic mutual-aid relationships with neighboring Coventry fire districts, which firefighters said would ensure better coverage on every call.

Mruk said the change would not be immediate, but that he would work on it. "I've got people to talk to," he said.

The residents who attended yesterday's meeting said they wanted to be notified about future sessions, to monitor the station's progress and keep up on these issues.

"It's not going away," resident Darren Miller said. "I think the public is now aware of some things that are mind-boggling."

"There are safety issues; there are accountability issues," he told Mruk. "These guys aren't just picking on you."

[Temptaker]

College Buff... I'm sorry. Wow... I really hope that happened in the distant past, and you guys aren't still trying to deal with it.

What I want to know is why didn't one of the FF in attendance at the meeting stand up with his trusty ever present axe, and say,"I've got the key to the cabinet"

[captstanm1]

This has been an interesting discussion...but I find it more interested to know that Dal has discovered this about JayTL... I had also wondered since the tone and type of posts seemed very very similar... Just like our Pittsville MD explorer who is also Vollystation 7 or something like that...

You go girl!

[Ten8_Ten19]

Yet another advantage of the "ignore" function on this board...doesn't matter what name thebox or our intrepid cadet post under, their message is still blocked.

...until they get a new IP address.

[JayTL]

This has been an interesting discussion...but I find it more interested to know that Dal has discovered this about JayTL...

I would explain the name change but that would get away from the discussion of the thread.

Again thanks for your opinion Capstan.

I'll stop feeding the trolls now.

Fine Dal. When you can't compete with debate - then retreat to where it is safe. I will be seeing you in May.

But where did this Chief get his degree?

Funny you should ask Mo. He received it from South Carolina public high schools. Nothing wrong with that. He also had a basic english speaking course though he was born and bred on the island. However, to quantify his experience he will now receive honorary degree's from WSU. Just joking

[Dalmatian90]

Fine Dal. When you can't compete with debate - then retreat to where it is safe. I will be seeing you in May.

Nope, debates aren't done for the purpose of finding out "feelings"

I'd say what your doing is just trying to stir up emotions -- that's not a debate, that's a troll.

Nothing to retreat from here, just trolls to expose.

[JayTL]

Nothing to retreat from here, just trolls to expose.

Lets take it to email and leave it off here. That has been what I have been instructed to do. Stay Safe Dal