1. #1
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    Default F.E. Basics, are they gone?

    At a recent fire, I needed a door popped (guess my shoulder aint what it used to be) anyway, I grab an ironsman and ask him to get the door for me.

    This inward opening door has a single mortise lock and a steel door buck. He begins to "deploy" his rabbit tool and I suggest he just pop it with his Halligan. He continues with the rabbit tool.

    With a minor sense of guilt, I placed the adz into the door frame and give it a quick twist and I'm in.

    While I enjoy many of our new inovations in the service, I wish we could keep or basic tool knowledge at the forefront of our operations. This is in no way a knock on this member's choice of tools, just a note to keep us thinking.

    Sometimes F.E. doesn't mean forcible entry, sometimes it means finesse entry.

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    Thumbs up

    Very true,
    Sometimes FE is as simple as turning the door knob ,but some people seem to forget that with all the neat tools we have now.
    Capt. Walker

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    JTL
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    The forward thinking progressives who want the fire service to be certified in everything, have a 10 page mission statement, and want their members to be able to speak 4 languages forget that the basics are the most important. There is still a "fire" in fire department.

    Are they emphasizing Forcible Entry in Probie school?

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    The more important issue is I hope you didn't knock any salt off on that door Lt. Guess I better dig deeper now for my 2 cents worth. But hey I look at it this way I am their to cover their a** and if they come up with a better mouse trap then great. Otherwise, I am game for more finesse and technique since all my parts are still working just not like they used to be. Besides it's job security.

    GOD Bless FDNY and ALL of the Lost Brother's and their families.

    FTM, PTB, RFB

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    In my academy we were well versed in the are of forcible entry. When I teach, I pick FE because it is becoming a lost art. What happens when the Rabbit tool is inoperable? You gotta go back to the irons!
    To know both is better than to know one. In WNYF 3rd 98, there is a
    small article by FF. Foy of L-136 that is preaches the proficiency
    of the use of the irons. He is right there are always new and easier ways but keep up with the old, you may never know when you'll need it.

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    I'd have to say while not lost FE has been misplaced. I've seen guys in my area get off of the rig with the supra key and nothing else. We have got to get back to basics.

    It is the lack of fires that causes this complacency, so it is up to the senior guys and the fire instructors to set a good example. Hell, I've had a hard enough time getting the guys to bring one tool, you should see some of the guys when you mention bringing more than one thing to a fire.

    How many of you have seen guys bring a 6lb axe into a class 1 or 2 constructed building. My question usually is "what are you going to chop in here?" My hope, at that point, is that I get something more than a blank look back.

    Continue to be a mentor and with some hard work we will continue to make firefighters. Do I hear an education VS experience debate about to start

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    I take two tools..... a solid iron and my boot( still have that old school style that will never die )
    Just my 2 cents.
    You have to love this line of work.

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    Default In the doghouse....

    Hate to say this,coming from Quint City, but it seems that good ol' fashioned Truck Work, like FE, is falling by the wayside. It is everyones responsibility,truck-engine-or otherwise, to know the basics. I am truly in awe seeing the veteran Truckie do their trade/art.It is kinda un-nerving to know once these guys retire that Truck Work will retire with them-unless we get some really good rookies(unlikely)or we switch back to Engine and Truck companies(maybe,when monkey's fly outta my butt).

    Once upon a time some forward thinking FDI's in Richmond got some abandoned bldg's downtown and trained the rooksters in salvage/overhaul/FE and whatnot-even self-rescue techniques.Just let em go hog-wild in there for hours.Course some of the rooksters complained they had respiratory illnesses secondary to that and they were discontinued.Anyone else do anything similar?Are there any hands on simulators one can use for teaching FE?
    Last edited by RSchmidt; 04-14-2002 at 09:37 PM.
    Rob

    "Well done is better than well said" - B. Franklin

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    Default Finesse Entry, I like it!

    Lt,
    I agree that FE is not spoken on nearly as much as it should be, in my essentials (Basic) class it was glossed over in 3 hours and no hands on given. They basically said here are the tools we use these for forcible entry. My first forcible entry experience was when I got locked out of my apartment in college. (Borrowed a butter knife and stuck it between the door jamb and frame. OK, so it wasnt a tough one )
    Loo, I hope to be able to come out some day and learn some of that finesse!

    Rob,
    I would love to see that type of training offered when vacated properties are given to the FD. Currently we do not perform this type of drill/training. And I think we are paying the price for it. Many people in my FD undervalue the art of FE. Many will just go for the big guns instead of using some thought and finesse. I hope to be able to get some material to be able to experiment with myself and eventially do some training on. My FD does not have a Truck Co. due to the lack of any building over 2 stories in our territory, so the truckie work falls to the second engine in. FE would be the responsibility of the officer of the first in engine.
    Shawn M. Cecula
    Firefighter
    IACOJ Division of Fire and EMS

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    I always like it when they want to use the Irons on a door and I get to walk up and use "The Ole'Shove Knife", "No Wam, No Bam, just thank you Ma'am"
    Stay Safe & Bring 'em Home!
    Eddie C.
    I.A.F.F. Local 3008

    "Doin' it for lives n' property"

    ** "The comments made here are this person's views and not that of the organizations to which I am affiliated" **

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    JTL
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    Once upon a time some forward thinking FDI's in Richmond got some abandoned bldg's downtown and trained the rooksters in salvage/overhaul/FE and whatnot-even self-rescue techniques.Just let em go hog-wild in there for hours.Course some of the rooksters complained they had respiratory illnesses secondary to that and they were discontinued.Anyone else do anything similar?Are there any hands on simulators one can use for teaching FE?
    My Captain, well my favorite Captain, Harry, used to take us to a set of housing projects that had been condemned becasue of soil pollution and we would open up the roof, force doors, windows, etc. Then one day the housing authority came out to where we were and told we had to stop because we were damaging property. Soooooo, we ended up quitting that and they tore them down about a month later. Then they decided the soil wasn't bad enough not to redevelop so a childrens park is there with a museum slated for construction. Good old city governemnt

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    Default Minor sense of guilt?

    With a minor sense of guilt, I placed the adz into the door frame and give it a quick twist and I'm in.

    Old age and treachery beats youth and skill.

    Did he just stand there with his mouth open like "how'd you do that?" or did he scream "why'd you do that? I almost had it."
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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