1. #26
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    OK, I'm off to start a topic about a national training standard just to get a feeler...
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    Default GOOD LUCK MONGO

    National standard? You have a better chance of turning me into a Cubs fan then to get a National standard passed. All your examples perfectly spell out why they wont work.
    Last edited by MIKEYLIKESIT; 04-18-2002 at 08:10 PM.

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    I also noticed that most of these "veterans" were just kids. It would be interesting to see the age breakdown for the whole department as well as the others that were participating in the exercises.

    I think it was Chief Raason who said that we should all download and print out the information on this incident and share it with everyone. I am all for that one! Also glad that someone else on here thinks others should "go down" for this senseless tragedy... The #$%^ with immunity for anyone. Go back and charge the City Commissioners with criminal negligence since they even stated at some point they had concerns over the qualifications but made and authorized the appointments.

    Is there a charge for "being ignorant"
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  4. #29
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    I think NFPA 1403 is a great place to start.
    I think that we look to NFPA standards as a guide but in this instance it is not a binding document. 1403 is a good place to start but like most other changes in the fire service, there has to be a punishment doled out for violations to make anything effective. This could be taken up on a local and state level but how do suppose each state would deal with it? No clear cut answers here.

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by mongofire_99

    What in the heck is in the water up there? Is Love Canal close by?

    Somebody needs to call Erin Brockovich!
    [QUOTE/]

    Mongo,
    Nope Love Canal is about 5 hours west of Westmoreland, and about 5 minutes southeast of me! Most people around here are fairly normal.

    As for the National consensus,I am not sure it would ever get past the planning phase. Too many volunteer fire departments in my area (mine included) have the experienced members getting burned out and refusing to take line positions. That leaves the younger book taught firefighters to fill in the void. Fortunately in my company the officers are smart enough to utilize the senior firefighters as advisors.

    I have heard through as of yet unconfirmed rumors (perhaps ALSFF can confirm) NYS OFPC is in the process of establishing minimum training requirements for officers. This I feel is a step in the right direction. And perhaps better than a national consensus for the very reason that Mongo stated "Your (for example) response district is significantly different from mine". My approximately 10 square mile response district has both the hydrant every 500 ft, and an area that requires shuttling of water. I am inclined that the state would be more, for lack of a better term, sympathetic to our situation than anyone at the national level.

    George, I agree with you that live fire training in acquired structures is beneficial. I am afraid that one day it will be possible for a firefighter to be fully trained and never have experienced being in a actual fire. Perhaps this is exaggerating, but it is not out of the relm of possibility. I hope it doesnt come to that.
    Shawn M. Cecula
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    Was just catching up on this thread and it seems that there are some facts thaat have not been pointed out. You point out that they were all so young. Well its seems that there are only 13 members of this FD and that is down from about 20 in resent years. My big bitch is that Kimball was give immunity. He was the highest ranking officer there and since his people were taking part in the evolution he had a duty to act. He did not nor did his LT. that was there with him. There is no one person responsable here. They are all responsable.

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    No argument from me on that one. I have said from day one that the Highest ranking officer there had responsibility and should be held accountable as well as all those there in authority.

    I am glad this one came back to the top.
    Last edited by captstanm1; 04-27-2002 at 10:38 PM.
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    For those of you who still check this forum regularly, if you haven't read it yet, read the forum "this just in." Just start shaking your heads now.

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    First question - When is the trial supposed to start?
    Second question - Has anyone heard whether Court TV was going to cover it? I know several posters have asked.

    I remember seeing some time ago a tape of an instructor lighting a boat up for live fire training. They used gasoline to start that fire, and they came close to seeing him on the air control radar at LAX airport.

    Then we have Lairdsville. Now another incident where they used a flammable liquid. Are there people in charge that are so isolated from the standards documents that they truly don't know of their existance? I'm not saying that ignorance of the standards is an acceptable excuse by any means. I've got to wonder though, how an instructor, training officer, or even a chief officer could possibly bend over so far as to be able to have their heads stuck that far up their own arse.

    I thought Lairdsville was an exception or an aberrancy. Now, I'm not so sure. This has got to stop.
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  10. #35
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    Angry Bairds' ville revisited

    captstanm1 stated
    "...the Highest ranking officer there had responsibility and should be held accountable as well as all those there in authority."

    I couldn't agee more. When you assume an officer position, you are accountable and responsible for the women and men under your command.
    Having again read through Mr. Baird's remarks during questioning, I am convinced that none of the officers were qualified to conduct that sort of training exercise...and they are responsible for the tragic outcome.

    As for the most recent incident in Cranesville......
    "Anyone can make mistakes. Fools insist on repeating them." --Robertine Maynard
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  11. #36
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    Unhappy From the Rome NY Sentinel online

    Note: I do not know when this article appeared on the Sentinel website....but it is still relevant to our thread. I hope I am not repeating a previous post.

    State probe finds 'serious' violations in fatal fire training

    The Westmoreland Fire District has been cited for several "serious" violations in an investigation by the state Labor Department of the fatal fire-training incident Sept. 25.

    In just one of the 11 serious violations noted, the fire district is cited as not having ensured that Lairdsville fire officers conducting the training were properly trained, according to the notice of violation.


    In addition, the report states that the couch fire used in the training was ignited by Gary Spaven, not defendant Alan Baird III as alleged by the DA's office.


    The 20-page review also states that the three firefighters in the live control burn were "not trained in basic essentials as required, had not received medical physicals, were never given training for respirators and never fit-tested" for breathing apparatus'." And, the narrative also includes that neither of the two officers at the scene, Lairdsville First Assistant Chief Alan Baird or Second Assistant Gary Spaven, was "qualified through training or experience to hold their positions within the department."


    The district, consisting of Westmoreland, Lowell and Lairdsville firefighters, was ordered to fix the violations by specific dates over the next couple of months or else face possible fines. There is also a process by which the district can appeal the notice, officials said.


    Nineteen-year-old Lairdsville firefighter Bradley Golden died in the live fire exercise. An Oneida County grand jury indicted former Lairdsville First Assistant Fire Chief Alan Baird, 20, of Westmoreland, on counts of manslaughter and assault. Prosecutors charge Baird was the highest ranking officer at the scene and that he was the one who lit the fire.


    The violations are noted in a Notice of Violation and Order to Comply completed by the Utica office of the Public Employee Safety and Health Bureau of the state Department of Labor.


    The notice, which also includes seven "non-serious" violations, states that the charges are violations of the Public Employee Safety and Health Act. The state agency enforces standards of the Occupational Health and Safety Administration for state employees including paid and volunteer firefighters.


    Specifically, the district did not ensure Lairdsville fire officers who were in charge of the live control burn training were properly trained in accordance with recommended standards.

    How's that grab ya? No SCBA training...Good God!
    Last edited by NJFFSA16; 04-27-2002 at 11:27 PM.
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    They were "sited" big deal... They indicted him...but is that a smoke screen? WE WANT A CONVICTION...AN EXAMPLE for other NOT to Follow!

    They should be convicted... Starting with the person in charge and ending with the comissioners that put him there. How about murder instead of manslaughter and how about accessory for the others!!!!!
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    Steamer that incident with the boat you posted was actually a lifeguard attempting to light a fire for lifeguard training. What they actually were supposed to do I have no clue, but he is one of the luckiest son-of-a-you know I've ever seen.

  14. #39
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    Unhappy Latest posting from WRGB news site

    From WRGB-Channel 6 online site

    Sunday, April 28, 2002 5:46:53 PM

    Firefighters Injured in Drill

    Fire officials are looking into whether the accelerant is to blame for causing problems in Saturday's training exercise. The Cranesville Fire Department was using a house on Chapman Drive for a live burn when a wall collapsed and fell on five firefighters after the blaze was ignited. Flammable liquids like gasoline and kerosene are the norm, but their use in live fire training is not recommended by the National Fire Protection Association. Two firefighters remain at Albany Medical Center, and three others were treated and released from St. Mary's Hospital. Fire officials say they've been using the house for the past six weeks in various training burns, and Saturday they were planning on burning it completely.
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    As most of you know, the trial of Alan Baird III was to begin today. You can keep up with it by going to the uticaOD.com website.
    I found a couple of interesting statements made in today's article posted by Firehouse.com. One was made by Baird which stated that he had a lot of support. I have to assume that he meant "local" support. I know that in the past, efforts to drum up support in these forums failed, but I know that he at least has the support of his family. Pictures of his father gets to me, because it is obvious that his father loves him very much, but I don't think Baird, Sr. understands fully the gravity of the situation. And I don't mean that it should sway his father's love. I mean that his father has chosen the same defense as his son when speaking to the media.
    The second statement that caught my attention, came from the family of Bradley Golden. His step-father has concerns that in all of this, Bradley's death will be forgotten. I don't know what would compel him to say something like that. I suppose with all of the press Alan Baird III is getting, maybe it is understandable. But I want Mr. Roberts to understand that Bradley's death will not be forgotten. Bradley paid the ultimate price for his decision that fateful day.
    Now, it is time for Alan Baird III to admit his responsibility in Bradley's death and pay an appropriate price, as well.
    The changes that have been made since the tragedy is the first step towards reconciling this needless training death. The second and final step is justice. Justice must be served and those responsible held accountable. It may start with Alan Baird III, but I suspect that it won't end there. And it shouldn't!
    Just my opinion; I could be wrong.
    God bless the Golden family and God help the Bairds.

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    Chief Reason....

    BRAVO.....I agree with you 100%. Justice must be served and Mr. Baird is a start but it must not end there. There are other respopnsible parties that must be indentified and charged.

    And....we should never forget the sacrifice Bradly Golden made as well as the sacrifices of all our fallen brothers. God bless his family and help them through this.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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  17. #42
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    Thumbs down

    Quote: "Heís a volunteer and you canít really hold him to a professional standard."

    This is a total horse s@#$ answer. The volunteer firefighting community has been struggling for respect and equality for decades, and this one LAWYER'S statement just set us back twenty years.

    The truth is from everything I've read about this case I couldn't make a decision either way, guilt or innocent. But I do believe that we should be held to highest standard.

    The reality of this situation is this is not a case of volly vs. career. This is a case of did they follow proper procedures when they started this training. So let's leave the whole rivalry between career and vollies out of it.

    Career or Volunteer all PROFESSIONAL.
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    I am new to reading much on this topic, been out in the feild for awhile. Amazing though, I read that artical at the begining, and holy horse $h!t, the thing that strikes me the most is there was not an alternat means of egress for the drill. I mean holy cow, your going to go a live burn, in an actual house, not a training structure. There should have been some ladders, I don't care how small those windows were, I'd be able to find a way to get my fat ***** out somehow. And there were RIT training going on too? is not laddering egress routes part of RIT? I don't really think that the blame needs to be sought out on one person. (I hate when people are in search of a scape goat) Here in the Army we got a saying, "**** Poor Planning Produces Pathetic Proformance" and this was not a well planned exercise at all (wow, understatement). Wow, I really went off on a tangent. I replied before gathering all my thoughts. Sorry for the spelling, but I got to run. Be Safe
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  19. #44
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    Default Needless death of a kid

    "There may be proper guidelines or procedures but they're not known by these firefighters," said the attorney. How can a fire department operate in 2002 without knowing about BASIC standards? If those among us want to be considered "professional" firefighters, than they need to quit acting like amateurs. Someone needs to be held accountable for the death of that kid. And I do mean kid. One article stated that he was a member of the department for 3 weeks!!! It was the first time that he put on his turnout gear???? A serious lack of judgement, knowledge, common sense, or all of the above caused this to happen. Let's not brush it off as being purely an "accident."
    "There are no stupid questions, just stupid people asking questions"

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    WHO'S ON FIRST? Let's recap today's testimony from some key players.
    Westmoreland Chief Kimball said that he played no role in organizing the training exercise. He only knew that it was suppose to be a "smoke exercise". He said that Baird was calling the shots when he got to the scene.
    Lairdsville Chief Lance Croman and Adam Croman's father stated that Baird was in charge at the scene of the training and did not know that a structure fire was to be a part of the training.
    Adam Croman stated that he agreed to be second floor safety officer. He denied using accelerants to start the barrel fire. He stated that he was ordered by Baird to throw the mattress down to him.
    Now, here is where it gets a little murky for me. Baird said in earlier statements to the Uticah Observer Dispatch that they went over the training to be conducted detail by detail. Today's testimony would not bear that out.
    Adam Croman was second floor safety. If that is the case, then why didn't he pull everyone out if he knew Baird was trying to set a second fire downstairs?
    So, if I understand it; everyone familiar with the training for Sept. 25th understood that it was going to be RIT training and that a smoke barrel was going to be used. The person in charge of safety should not have been confused over details of the training. Next to the guy in charge of the training, the safety officer would need to know what training was to be conducted and plan the safety around it. Obviously, this wasn't done.
    So far, Mr. Moran has suggested that Adam Croman used gasoline to start the upstairs fire. He has suggested that Kimball was in charge of the training. Kimball, in statements made to the sheriff's department, implicated Lance Croman as the ranking officer.
    I suppose tomorrow, Moran will shift blame to Adam Croman for not getting Morris and Golden out of the house. If the smoke barrel was to be the sole source for the exercise, then I would have thought a serious red flag would have gone up as soon as everyone else saw Baird "flicking his BIC".
    Maybe we'll get the answer to that one soon.
    Stay tuned.

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    Default Lairdsville

    It saddens me to hear of a fire fighter death. The one thing that bothers me is the statement made by Baird when he stated he went around back with a hose line with another fire fighter and entered thru the kitchen and began an interior attack. Then he said he saw Croman fall from second story and he pulled him away from house. If he was inside fighting the fire how did he see Croman fall and did he leave the fire fighter in the house alone to pull Croman away from house.

    I also echo the statement of rescue 101 about the 19 yo safety officer. I am 27 have been a fire fighter for 8 years and have just become the safety Lt. for my department after several years of training and experience. I am not trying to blame anyone but having an inexperianced safety officer is the fault of the chief. Also I am unclear if their was a class A pumper on scene before they started the fire? If anyone can advise, please. That would be the number 1 rule to remember when live fire training.

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    And what's with the Chief pleading ignorance?Whenever I do Live Fire Training,as I'm doing this weekend in a AQUIRED structure there is a floor plan,fire load calculations,sufficient staffing,WORKING Safety officers,And the Chiefs, ALL SIX OF THEM KNOW THE PLAN!Pumper and water in place and the BACKUP line in place,crewed and ready before the first fire is lit.All interior crews do a Walkthru prior to the excercise.There are more here that need to held accountable.T.C.

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    Angry Hmm

    It seems to me that no one person should be held responsible. It was a group activity, a team activity- finish it as one.
    Peter H. Davies

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    Default

    I don't spend much time here on this board anymore, but I'll through my $.02 in anyway.

    I just recently went through the Incident Safety Officer course given at the NYS Academy of Fire Science on May 11 and 12 which was taught by Bill Wren. It was a real eye opener for me and made me debate wether or not I wanted to keep my ISO position within my department...that's how serious this stuff is. I would recommend it to anyone that can take it. You'll never look at a Safety Officer as a "tag shagger" again.

    Some have mentioned that NFPA guidelines are only that...guidelines. That's true. It has also been mentioned that NY is a home rule state. That's also true. Do we in the fire service have to adhere to NFPA guidelines? No. We do however have to abide by OSHA. And what has OSHA said??? That they will follow NFPA guidelines!!! So, there's no getting around it boys and girls. We had all better follow NFPA guidelines, or we'll end up like the idiot in Lairdsville.
    Glenn Ralston, FF/EMT-D
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    Thumbs down

    I have been following this case from day one and have found these differences in the statements of individuals. First in the fire investigators original statements was that there was a second fire lit upstairs in a bathtub. Last I new a fiberglass tub would burn hot and fast.hhhhmmmmm. Also it seams funny that everyone new right after it happend that there would be live fire and now they say they didnt. What about the story in the OD(Observer discrace as we call it), About the charged handline used to make the first attack on the fire. It has suddenly disappeared. Why are there so many peole changeing there story now?

    You find me one officer that would noat after losing a fellow firefighter go back and think that it may be there fault. I now that no matter what I would say to myself, " what if I did this or that" .
    I dont know but blaiming yourself is human not murder.
    Everything that I post is my opinion only, none of this should be taken as fact.

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