1. #51
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    Ladies and gentlemen:
    I think that we have found an Alan Baird supporter.
    sfdlt5: I am going to play "devil's advocate" here. First and foremost; were you there on Sept. 25th and if you were, what can you tell us? Will you be called to testify? Or are you in Baird's corner because you believe that he didn't set the fire that killed Brad Golden? If he didn't, who did? Who helped him position the couch at the base of the stairs, ignite the road flare, set the couch/mattress on fire, and then stand in amazement when the house lit up? Who helped him do that?
    You seem to believe that others knew his intentions and now they are no where to be found. I sense that you got your information from the same source as ours; Alan Baird III's interview with the Observer Dispatch. Are you saying that they distorted the statements of the interview or just plain left them out. I have read Lairdsville: What Went Wrong? several times and no one else has corroborated Baird's statements. Other than that he set the fire. I believe that others were "indirectly" culpable. They will pay a price as well. But apparently, there are some holes in Baird's account of the events of Sept.25th.
    I don't know but blaiming yourself is human not murder.
    Help me understand this statement. Alan Baird III admits to setting the fire in the couch. That is not blame; that is fact. The fire contributed to the death of one firefighter and the injuries of two others. He's lucky that he isn't being charged with murder. Because he should be. How a guy with 13 years in the service could be so reckless speaks to the depth of the problem. You seem to think that he shouldn't be charged with anything?
    Let me pose a hypothetical question to you. If you stuck a firecracker in my back pocket, lit it and blew part of my *** off, would you be responsible for my injuries? Come on; I want to hear your half-assed answer.
    My point is: through Baird's own statements, he admitted committing crimes. BLAME is what he is trying to put on everyone else. Like I said, I believe that others should be held accountable, but for the love of God, where is the honor? You should be supporting Adam Croman, Ben Morris and the family of Brad Golden. You should be in their support system. Alan Baird was not acting as a fire officer, firefighter or friend on Sept. 25th. He was acting as a common criminal-and there is a support system for that. It's called the prison system. Get use to the idea, sfdlt5. It's going to happen, unless Baird can prove that he wasn't there that day and that's not likely. His attorney has already put him at the scene of the crime.
    Baird strikes me as wanting to be the big guy on campus that day. He wanted to impress the new guys with big fire. They fed his ego when they went upstairs without so much as a question. They fed his ego by blindly trusting him with their lives. And when things turned to sh*t, HE THINKS THAT HE IS THE VICTIM? Don't make me puke.
    Get on the right side of this. The other side is just too ugly.
    You need to make sure that there aren't any more Alan Bairds in Oneida County.
    And for the record, I exercised considerable restraint in my reply. I factored in your short time in these forums. I realize that the emotional undercurrents are very high in this case. But this case is not about beliefs, but what is fact. Alan Baird has not been charged with anything that he hasn't already admitted to.
    Like yours, my opinions are mine and mine alone.

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    Angry

    First things first . I in no way support Mr. Baird. I am just trying to say that I eard from a few firefighters that were there that it was set to be a training "fire". Not a simulated fire. I was not there myself. After the hole thing happend I diont know if the original reports were posted on this board. The original reports stated that there were "3" fires started that night. One downstairs one in a barrell and one in a tub. You tell me does a fiberglass tub burn fast. I believe it does. I dont support either side in this case, Cause I live some what close to the area. I feal I should remain neutral. This county has had some very poor training practices in the past and maybe and just maybe this will help straighten things out. Didnt mean to **** you off just telling you what I know about the fire that night.
    Everything that I post is my opinion only, none of this should be taken as fact.

  3. #53
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    Angry Baird revisited

    Originally posted by sfdlt5
    The original reports stated that there were "3" fires started that night. One downstairs one in a barrell and one in a tub. You tell me does a fiberglass tub burn fast. I believe it does.
    After sifting throught the numerous wire stories regarding testimony in this case, it became apparent to me that the ONLY means of egress from the second floor of this structure was the stairway...at the base of which Mr. Baird ignited the mattress. He admits that this fire quickly propagated throughout the room and , of course, UP THE STAIRWELL.

    By lighting that fire and that fire alone, Mr. Baird has cut off the only means of egress from the second floor. The victims, probationary firemen, had no SCBA training and no prior experience with intense heat and smoke conditions.

    Granted...the safety officer or any officer on that scene SHOULD have or could have put a stop to this evolution at any time...but I get the impression that they had no idea that Mr. Baird was going to ignite the mattress.

    Questions I have:
    Were hoselines in place and charged?
    Were back-up lines laid out?
    Were RIT or FAST teams standing by?
    Did each participant receive a familiarization with the building before the drill?
    Did all officers know the specifics of the plans?
    Was there an alteration of those plans by any individual?
    Were ladders positioned at any time, prior to the fire being set?

    Unfortunately, I do not know if these questions were asked or answered during the testimony.

    But the fact remains that Mr. Baird ignited the fire that blocked the only egress from that second floor. So what standard did he violate?
    NFPA? OSHA? Yes, but even more telling is the fact that he failed to use common sense about expected fire behavior at the base of a stairwell, or let's face it, a CHIMNEY providing an avenue for fire propagation to the second floor.

    There is no defense for that.
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  4. #54
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    Rescue 101....He is pleading ignorance because he is ignorant. Nothing wrong with good old country boys....I am one... But in this case he is a good old dumb country boy!

    Chief Reason... I am with you totally... Those are all facts...not blame.... Perhaps he can organize a fire brigade and train them at the state prison. If history repeats he would be saving taxpayers money and may get a meritorious service award.

    sfdlt5...
    I am just trying to say that I eard from a few firefighters that were there that it was set to be a training "fire". Not a simulated fire.
    ???What does that mean???? Are training fires not "simulated" fires? or...Do trainings fires just start automically as an act of god?

    I too have followed this from the beginning and have even seen some of the original testimony and there has never been any indication of "3" fires. Where did you get that information other that "hearsay"?? By saying you don't support either side are you saying that you condone the activities that day?? If so...I encourage others to steer clear of training you conduct. It appears from the form of your forum name that you may be an officer. If so...are you familiar with NFPA 1403? If you are an officer and had been there that day would you have had the "package" to say..."TIME OUT".....someone is going to get hurt here!!!!!!

    NFFFS_a16...The answer to most of your questions is no from what I have read. And there was no plan that had any organization as far as I can read so there would be nothing to alternate or change. The whole thing was a disaster waiting to happen. There was no common sense used, no planning, no tactical applications, no communication, and no breifing...just a match and some combustibles...that is it.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
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    Unhappy The Bairdsville implications?

    Originally posted by captstanm1
    NFFFS_a16...The answer to most of your questions is no from what I have read. And there was no plan that had any organization as far as I can read so there would be nothing to alternate or change. The whole thing was a disaster waiting to happen. There was no common sense used, no planning, no tactical applications, no communication, and no breifing...just a match and some combustibles...that is it.
    Next question Stan; IF Baird is convicted for this tragedy, what are the future implications for officers, not only at training evolutions, but at actual alarms? The possibilities frighten me!

    The defense of Mr. Baird's actions will be interesting to follow, as the trial continues.
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    Well, let's see what happened in yesterday's court testimony.
    Ben Morris took the witness stand. He indicated that he was not briefed about the training exercise and was only told by Chief Croman that he would be acting as a live victim for a "routine interior fire attack" exercise. He also stated that he thought that it was suppose to be smoke from a smoke barrel fire. This contradicts Baird's statement that everyone knew about the training.
    Morris referred to a 5 minute timeline during which things turned to sh*t. He woke up in the front yard. This man was going to serve his country as a Marine, but can't because, as a result of that "training exercise", he had to have three fingertips amputated. Sad!
    Morris, when asked by Mr. Moran who was in charge, replied that it was Lairdsville's highest ranking officer, referring to Baird. Morris said that Adam Croman was in charge of safety; a fact that Adam Croman disputes.
    Hudson, a retired investigator stated that Baird voluntarily gave two statements; but there was some contradiction between the one taken on 9/26 and 10/7. In the first, Baird stated that he knew Golden was in the house and on 10/7, he stated that he didn't know that Golden was inside.
    According to Baird's statement, Spaven, Croman and Chief Kimball knew that a fire would be set on the first floor. Kimball and Croman said that a fire on the second floor in a barrel was to be used.
    Sounds like Baird had about 70 hours of state certified training. That figures out to what; less than 6 hours a year for 13 years of service. Yea, he earned his bugles(heavy, heavy sarcasm). Anyway, the big, big chief from Westmoreland (Holmes) stated that he oversees training for Lairdsville, but due to a personality conflict with Lairdsville, left training to Lance Croman. He said that they were to get together each month to discuss training, but it didn't work out that way. Sounds like too much discussion about training and not enough actual training. There's more. Holmes stated that he "hoped they were (OK) and getting back to me if they had serious problems". I smell Officer of the Year!!!!(heavy, heavy sarcasm)
    Walsh, the district safety officer stated that Lairdsville's air packs were not up to federal standards, so he knew it and failed to correct it. Great job, Walsh. Wouldn't have done any good for Golden, because according to Mr. Moran, Golden hadn't turned on his SCBA. Where did he get that information? First time I'm hearing that.
    Defense argues next week. Folks, I am telling you that you don't want to miss this. Mr. Robert Moran is going to put on a show; the likes of which we have not seen since OJ. I expect by the time he is done, everyone on the active roster for Westmoreland, Lowell and Lairdsville will be blamed for Golden's death; except for Baird, of course. Moran has intimated that Golden may have caused his own death by not turning on his SCBA. Why else would he say it? To prove that Golden lacked SCBA training? We'll see.
    NJFFS_A16: If you train as if your life depended on it, it will save your life at a structural fire. It is your training that will win the day when things go south. Getting answers to your questions before the fire is lit will certainly clear up any gaps.
    Future implications for officers? If you have conducted yourself in a competent manner, can demonstrate that you are qualified to be in charge, then you have nothing to worry about. I am not the least bit worried about the implications coming out of this trial. I am concerned about the changes that will or won't be made as its result. The way I see it; departments are going to take a better look at who is QUALIFIED to lead. The fire service will not lose one good officer as a result of this trial. Hopefully, those with marginal credentials will re-evaluate themselves and step down. If you don't have qualified people, then don't fill the position. If you can't meet the requirements, pick a different organization in which to volunteer. It's life or death here, folks. If you can't train to a competent level, then join the Lions Club, where the worst thing that could happen is that someone will wrestle you for some candy!
    Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time.
    The reason that IMACOJ and proud of it is that I have trained like my life has depended on it.
    Be safe, brothers and sisters.

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    Ok I do know all about NFPA 1403 I have read it and understand it. For the sake of saying I condone what was done that day that is your ignorance. Its called keeping my nose clean. I do not want to take sides. I do remember very well the day after this happend the local newspaper siad that according to investigators there were 3 fires started that day. That is what I am going by. Yes I would have stepped in and siad something is not right. If you dont believe that ask FunkyFire13 fe is a chief above me. I follaw the rules almost to a t. I just feel that if we all dont watch our backs next time a firefighter gets killed in a nontraining burn that the guy who went in with him and all the officers on the scene could be held responsible. That would be wrong in my book. If a tree falls and no ody is around does anyone hear it.
    Everything that I post is my opinion only, none of this should be taken as fact.

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    Default Huh?

    sfdlt5 you lost me on the tree thing and you're digging yourself a deeper hole with every post.

    If I'm negligent at my day job and cause death or serious injury to one of my employees I'm going to be held responsible. Why should I be immune as a line officer in a fire department?
    _________DILLIGAF

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    Default Here i am

    Ok, where should i begin here, first things first, sfdlt5 is one of our most dedicated firefighters that we have in our dept and, trust me he would never have put anyone in a situation, like the Westmoreland fire Dist did on sept. 25th. I use Westmoreland Fire dist, for the sole reason that While baird was the ranking officer on the scene from lairdsville, he was not the highest ranked officer for that district present, Kimball was, and he was given immunity, to testify in court. Convienent huh?? The whole situation in was and still is a cluster Fu*k, big time. Common sense should have stopped this, let alone and true firefighter on this scene, that had any balls should have stopped this, that is our responsibility not jsut as officers but as Brothers to watch out and protect each other. I notice in the OD from today that the Defense called the head of traingin for the district and he said that there were problems between the department and he had not been keeping up with what they were doing.....HELLO if u are in charge of training and there are Problems with the people u are training u are either, A not doing your job or B not caring.....this person too should be charged here, for being negligent.

    I think Sfdlt5 is more concerend about the shape of the volunteer fire service here in Oneida county and NYS as well, i have posted here previously that there are problems, one of the biggest is fire commisioners that govern depts...look at all the fines that were handed out to the westmoreland commies....Maybe these guys should be charged as well for being ignorant to standard and negligent in how their depts are run.

    Is Al baird guilty, in one word YES, he lit the couch which trapped those individuals on the second floor, is this the fire that killed them hard to say, If it is true that Brads air pak was not even turned on, then i would like to know how he was able to even breath with the mask on and no air. Baird should be held accoutable, otheres should be held accoutable, should he do time....can't really say, we had a case last year were a person hit a women, left her for dead on the side of the road, ran to georgia, was caught and only had to searve 6 weekends in jail.....6 weeks for killing someone, i think that is just as reckless, but im not the jury, or the DA, im just a concerned member of the fire communitee here in onieda county who will be happy when this is over and our depts are not looked as imcompetent and ignorant, the majority of us do know what we are doing and try our best to be as safe as we can, this unfortunate incident has put a horrible blemish on all the volunteers here and nationwide, and drastically affected recruitments efforts, lets all hope that brads death will not be in vain and change will come of this, change for the better.

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    Chief Reason,

    As to your last post, The information is not all correct.
    I have followed this incident right along. I personally have had
    the opportunity to meet Assistant Chief Walsh. Asst. Chief Walsh
    has held that position for the last three, maybe four years.
    During this time has spent countless hours educating himself and
    learning to be a successful chief officer. About a year ago the fire district of Westmoreland approached him and asked him to become
    a safety officer. This position is somewhat different than what you and I would know it as. The Westmoreland Fire Dist. Safety Officer
    was made to keep up on OSHA,PESH,NFPA and local regulations.
    (I know what your thinking. they didn't know what NFPA was!!) Mr.
    Walsh is a very knowledgeable man, who without a dought put in his time. Chief Walsh spent many hours writing the dist. respiratory protection program, the hazardous communication program, bloodbourn
    pathogens program, He strived to coordinated all physicals and mask fit tests. Chief Walsh has made great accomplishments in a short time. There are several department surrounding Westmoreland that will
    testify to that because they have adopted his work.

    As for Mr. Moran. The statement he made stating Bradley Golden didn't
    have his air pack on is a tactic in my opinion. This statement to the media is a last ditch effort in hopes someone on the jury would read it and form an opinion. It was certainly not perceived that way in court. Anybody who ever used an MSA low pressure SCBA belt mounted
    regulator will know that if your mask is on your face and the low-pressure hose is connected to the regulator it has to be on or you can't breath.

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    Funkyfire:
    Good to hear from you. It's been awhile. Hope everything is going well for you.
    I'm a little confused over why Kimball was given immunity. Obviously, the prosecution made the deal with Kimball in exchange for testimony. Kimball didn't have a whole lot to say. So why the immunity? That's a strange one, that is. As for sfdlt5; he is having an awful time with articulating his thoughts. They are sometimes very confusing. I incorrectly thought that he was defending Baird in his first post. I stand corrected, but he did say that thing about "blaiming yourself is human not murder". I still don't understand that one. If you are in his corner, that's good enough for me. I will weigh my responses to him in the future.
    FFsta.2:
    My only point in regards to Walsh is that he testified that the Lairdsville SCBAs were not in compliance with federal regulations and as such, should have been taken out of service. I don't know what his credentials are; I only know that he addressed the issue of the SCBAs and that is what I spoke to.
    Kimball sought immunity to save his ***. Holmes stated that there was acrimony with Lairdsville. He mentioned it to set up his defense that THEY were not keeping HIM informed if there were any problems.
    I am not making this stuff up. I am passing along my own opinions, because for right now, that is all we have. What I report in the way of the trial is what I have gained from the testimony and from Lairdsville: What Went Wrong? Most of what was stated in that article was from Baird.
    But, you can have all of the policies and programs that one man can write, but if they are not followed, they are not worth the paper they are printed on. That's the other thing that OSHA takes a very dim view on; if you violate your own policies, you're in deep doodoo, too.
    There's a whole buttload of CYA going on right now with Lairdsville. I suppose that it is to be expected.
    I will be glad when the trial and sentencing is over, because the outcome is going to change the way things are done. And that won't be all bad.
    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone.

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    Default hey Chief

    Well, to be honest i was kind of trying to stay out of the discussions here for a while, but things it jsut seems to be the same old discussion being rehashed over and over again, and i don't much care for the personal attacks on those posting either. everyone here should be allowed to voice there opinions, yes there is room for constructive critisism, but not attacking someones character. As for the trial, i am really waiting for the defense witnesses this week, should make for some interesting discussions. ONe thing that was pointed out and really has struck me as odd....sfdlt5 actually led into it on one of the other topics.....Where was the incident command on this scene, If baird is the or one of the ignition officers then he can't be command, someone else must have been. Now if he was playing the role of both, then he should fry because command should have never been in the building lighting the fire, command should have been outside and well commanding. From what i have gathered lately a main contributing factor here may have been the fact that there was infighting between the three depts in the district when they should have been working together as one, they were not, they were freelancing there operations, there training, and hurting the volunteer fire service.

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    Question

    HMMMMMMMMMM! Let me think here for a minute on how to explain my staitment of "Its only human to blaim yourself". OK I got it. Your pager goes off in the middle of the night, its a lets say ems call. You are not an EMT but you are trained in CPR. For some reason you decide to take your time cause it was kind of late. You drop your keys trying to unlock your car door. Now you know the house is only about a block away and you are the closest one to the scene but you decided to take your time anyways. YOu get there and it is a code 99 lets say. Patient not breathing. You begin CPR on the 2yr old hoping and praying that the tiny child will take a breath on there own. Well needless to say the child passes away. WEhat is one of your first thaughts when you find out. "Its my fault I took my time and I dropped my keys". I should have been there faster and maybe it would have made a difference. That is my oint you almost always blaim yourself. Sorry for the length , but I couldnt figure out how to explain it.
    Everything that I post is my opinion only, none of this should be taken as fact.

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    If baird is the or one of the ignition officers then he can't be command, someone else must have been.
    Funkyfire13:
    Your statement that I quoted above illustrates the crux of the whole fiasco that has come be synonomous with the name Lairdsville. They apparently didn't have any rules to put any structure to running the evolutions, saying they didn't know anything about NFPA, and that they didn't have to follow it anyway since New York wasn't an "NFPA State".

    I don't think one can assume that he (Baird) wasn't the IC simply because he was apparently the ignition officer since he lit the fire that killed this young man. Maybe in our world, but according to the "Baird School of Live Fire Training", you can be anything and do anything you want since you've never heard of NFPA. If you get caught, claim that it's not your fault...your just a typically stupid volunteer. That excuses every moronic thing you've done.

    By what I've read, he was calling the shots. I still think that there are others just as responsible for this tragedy, but like the kids game, Baird just couldn't find a seat when the music stopped.
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    I still think that there are others just as responsible for this tragedy, but like the kids game, Baird just couldn't find a seat when the music stopped.
    This is the best theory I've heard as to why Baird was the ONLY person charged in this mess. I'd like to hear the prosecution's reasons for granting Kimball immunity. What charges could he have faced and what information did he provide that the prosecution didn't already know or could have gotten on their own?
    _________DILLIGAF

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    Chief Reason

    Assistant Chief Walsh did not testify that district scba were out of regulation. The defense asked if the Westmoreland Fire Dist. was sited for any violations regarding air pacts. Chief Walsh’s response was "Yes several were sited because they did not contain the minimum air pressure of 2000 psi. One mask was sited for being dirty and I believe a pass device had a low battery. The Westmoreland Fire Dept. has Three technicians certified to work on the ISI Vikings and the remainder of the MSA are under contract for maintenance and certification.

    Granted, The violations should never have happened. These were also not serious violations. The serious violations were for not having training records to meet OSHA standards, accurate proof of fit test for Bradley Golden, proof of training on respiratory protection, hazardous communication, bloodbourn pathogens. Keep in mind these programs were in place but a training report was not made to show that personnel attended a class on them.

    I agree there is a lot of CYA going on. It's not right by any means.
    There is nothing I nor you can do about it. The judicial system is at work. I have no idea what the outcome will be. Interesting to say the least.

    QUESTION:

    How will the fire service react if there is a conviction?

    What will the fire service do if there is no conviction?

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    Default History

    Lets go back to 1995. Remember Chris from New Hartford Fire Dept. He was critically burn in a training accident not 5 miles from Lairdsville. This was conducted by NY State by a NY State Instructor that violated every live burn rule invented by its own New York State OFPC. Tom Wutz was quick to blame Chris. Talk about CYA. He spent 4 weeks in a burn bed in Syracuse. This is no less different than what happened in Lairdsville. Exactly the same mistakes made. In this case no investigations by a DA or anyone. Nor did we hear anyting from Tom Wutz once he learned that one of his own should have been held accountable. What does this tell you? Talk about immunity !!

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    FFsta.2:
    Thanks for the clarification, but perhaps, I confused you.
    First, the Uticah Observer Dispatch reported Robert Walsh, Westmoreland district safety officer, testified that the air packs used by Lairdsville firefighters were not up to federal standards.
    I stated, then as such, they should not have been in service. Obviously, a dirty mask can be cleaned and a battery in a PASS device can be replaced, but a bottle that is out-of-date on its hydrostatic testing, must be taken out of service until it passes the hydro. Wearers are to be medically cleared, fit tested and trained in the use and maintenance of the respirator, prior to their work assignment requiring the use of a respirator(SCBA). I realize that they may have had a respiratory protection program in place, but based on the findings that were disclosed in court, they were in violation of their own policy and here in Illinois, violating your own policies is worse than not having a policy at all.
    Steve Moran:
    Can you bring us up to speed on this case involving Chris of New Hartford Fire Department. My question is that, apparently, there was some questions about the state sponsored burn. If there were serious lapses, why didn't Chris or the New Hartford Fire Department press for some answers?
    Do you suppose your revelation about Wutz will make its way in to court?
    Now, the more obvious question; I noticed you have the last name of the defense counselor. Are you related? And I don't mean that as an insult.
    Monday will be interesting in court. Counsel for the defense has his work cut out for him, but if he can throw others into the mix and raise serious doubts that Baird acted alone, but in concert, then who knows?
    Because we have to remember that Bradley Golden died and Chris of New Hartford Fire Department lived and for me, that is a big difference between the two cases.
    If I don't balance my checkbook and get overdrawn, that is a mistake. If you ignore recognized, safe practice and cause the serious injury or death of a person, that is criminal. Period.
    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone.

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    Question:

    If Baird told Golden he couldn't go in, and Golden was taken in without Bairds knowledge or permission in spite of that, would you still consider Baird responsible for Golden?
    Last edited by mongofire_99; 05-19-2002 at 10:03 PM.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    Lightbulb

    Well I was waiting to see this show up on here again. Steve is related to the defense attorny, actually brothers I believe. As for Chris the young man who got burned in thee training fire, I believe that is Steves son. This is probably going to play a big part in the defenses case. No, Chris didnt die, but he was seriously burned. The big question is why was there never a case of assault or anything braught against the state instructor in that case? Well I have to say I wish Chris luck in everything he does. He is lucky to be alive if I remember the story correctly. As for Oneida county, things are changeing very rapidly now. Had they been a little stricter before all this we wouldnt be rushing to catch up.
    Everything that I post is my opinion only, none of this should be taken as fact.

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    Mongo:
    Yes; he still conducted himself in a very out-of-control and very unsafe manner. I don't care that Kimball was on-scene or that he did or didn't know who was upstairs. He did not provide for a safe means of egress.
    Just my opinion; I could be wrong.

  22. #72
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    FFsta.2

    How will the fire service react if there is a conviction?

    Those of us that have followed the case will say "I can't believe it" or "I knew it."

    Depending on your position you'll sorta celebrate (FLBT) or rant and rave for a few days.

    Nothing else will change.

    What will the fire service do if there is no conviction?

    Sadly, most of the fire service will never know.

    Chief Reason

    I've edited my post and added "for Golden." Don't know if it would change your answer but thought I'd let you know.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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    mongo,

    I know that you have been in contact with Mr. Moran, and it would appear that you are trying to guide people to the possibility that possibly Crowman should be the one facing charges, and not Baird. Is this true or am I just overtired after a holiday weekend?

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    Mongo:
    It doesn't change my answer. You have taken some exceptions to some of Adam Croman's actions. One of the peculiar things I read was that Croman threw a mattress down to Baird or as he said in court, that he was "ordered" by Baird to throw it down to him; like they had this no bullsh*t chain of command. He did it after he started his fire in the barrel. So he sorta-kinda knew that Baird was starting a fire downstairs as well? It would seem that way. Baird was asked about laddering windows, but he nixed it, so I assume that he was in command? It would seem so.
    sfdlt5: I was asking about the last name of Moran, because I truly didn't know. But Steve came out strong, so I suspected it. I am sorry to hear about Chris, but it would seem that something could have been done in 1995. But we are talking about the fire service, so perhaps not.
    Mongo; do you suppose they will call Croman back to the stand on a re-direct? There are some questions. Now that the jury has gotten over the shock of seeing his hands, maybe they can look at what his role was that day? We'll see.
    As far as the majority of the fire service not knowing about this case; on my own department, only 3 guys had a working knowledge of this tragic event. And they are a pretty well informed department.
    You could be right.
    Stay safe.

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    LadyCapn

    Fair question. But I make up my own mind and some things thus far ain't adding up...

    Baird's third statement: "Q: You didn’t know Golden was upstairs?
    A: No, because firefighter Croman came downstairs looking for firefighter Golden. Adam came to me and asked if I had seen Brad. I told Adam no as far as I know he’s not doing this training this time and if he needed a second person that I would take his spot up there. Adam stated that they were all set."

    http://www.uticaod.com/news/lairdsville1.htm

    coward, I mean Croman testified "We got to the hall area and sort of just nudged each other to try to get downstairs." http://www.firehouse.com/training/ne...16_Ptrial.html

    Things from cowards testimony, as reported, don't add up with common sense and logic. "As the three firefighters tried to crawl backward down a burning staircase to escape the inferno surrounding them, Croman realized he couldn’t make it down that way alive." http://www.firehouse.com/training/ne...16_Ptrial.html

    If there were three firefighters crawling down a single flight of stairs, one of them had to be near the bottom, and remember, one of them was not breathing air off his SCBA (Golden). Yet Golden and Morris were found in the room they were left in. To be quite honest, if croman's testimony is true, I'm baffled as to why they didn't find Golden on the stairs as he was not breathing from his SCBA. After all, it was so untennable that croman had to run out on them...

    These and other things are troubling to me. I believe Baird has some responsibility and have said so many times both here and to Moran in emails. At the very least, croman and kimball should also be prosecuted and recieve the same fate as Baird.

    However, if, and I mean if, someone 'snuck' Golden in without Bairds knowledge, someone needs to do some jail time.

    Chief Reason

    do you suppose they will call Croman back to the stand on a re-direct?

    I have no idea. But I'd like to see the transcript of his testimony to see what questions were asked and how he answered. Yeah, I'd like to see everyones, but especially his.

    Now that the jury has gotten over the shock of seeing his hands, maybe they can look at what his role was that day?

    Great move by the prosecution. Almost as good as cochran telling oj to go ahead and "try" to put them gloves on while wearing vinyl gloves underneath.
    Last edited by mongofire_99; 05-19-2002 at 11:20 PM.
    It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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