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  1. #41
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Chief Reason....

    BRAVO.....I agree with you 100%. Justice must be served and Mr. Baird is a start but it must not end there. There are other respopnsible parties that must be indentified and charged.

    And....we should never forget the sacrifice Bradly Golden made as well as the sacrifices of all our fallen brothers. God bless his family and help them through this.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
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    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.


  2. #42
    MembersZone Subscriber Halligan's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote: "Heís a volunteer and you canít really hold him to a professional standard."

    This is a total horse s@#$ answer. The volunteer firefighting community has been struggling for respect and equality for decades, and this one LAWYER'S statement just set us back twenty years.

    The truth is from everything I've read about this case I couldn't make a decision either way, guilt or innocent. But I do believe that we should be held to highest standard.

    The reality of this situation is this is not a case of volly vs. career. This is a case of did they follow proper procedures when they started this training. So let's leave the whole rivalry between career and vollies out of it.

    Career or Volunteer all PROFESSIONAL.
    "Never mistake knowledge for intelligence; it is like mistaking a cup of milk for an entire cow."-Thomas Jefferson

    I.A.C.O.J. Member and F.A.R.T.'s local 4 founding member

    Mama said she only raised one fool.....Hey wait a minute I'm an ONLY CHILD???

  3. #43
    Senior Member Drewbo's Avatar
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    I am new to reading much on this topic, been out in the feild for awhile. Amazing though, I read that artical at the begining, and holy horse $h!t, the thing that strikes me the most is there was not an alternat means of egress for the drill. I mean holy cow, your going to go a live burn, in an actual house, not a training structure. There should have been some ladders, I don't care how small those windows were, I'd be able to find a way to get my fat ***** out somehow. And there were RIT training going on too? is not laddering egress routes part of RIT? I don't really think that the blame needs to be sought out on one person. (I hate when people are in search of a scape goat) Here in the Army we got a saying, "**** Poor Planning Produces Pathetic Proformance" and this was not a well planned exercise at all (wow, understatement). Wow, I really went off on a tangent. I replied before gathering all my thoughts. Sorry for the spelling, but I got to run. Be Safe
    **************************
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  4. #44
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    Default Needless death of a kid

    "There may be proper guidelines or procedures but they're not known by these firefighters," said the attorney. How can a fire department operate in 2002 without knowing about BASIC standards? If those among us want to be considered "professional" firefighters, than they need to quit acting like amateurs. Someone needs to be held accountable for the death of that kid. And I do mean kid. One article stated that he was a member of the department for 3 weeks!!! It was the first time that he put on his turnout gear???? A serious lack of judgement, knowledge, common sense, or all of the above caused this to happen. Let's not brush it off as being purely an "accident."
    "There are no stupid questions, just stupid people asking questions"

  5. #45
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    WHO'S ON FIRST? Let's recap today's testimony from some key players.
    Westmoreland Chief Kimball said that he played no role in organizing the training exercise. He only knew that it was suppose to be a "smoke exercise". He said that Baird was calling the shots when he got to the scene.
    Lairdsville Chief Lance Croman and Adam Croman's father stated that Baird was in charge at the scene of the training and did not know that a structure fire was to be a part of the training.
    Adam Croman stated that he agreed to be second floor safety officer. He denied using accelerants to start the barrel fire. He stated that he was ordered by Baird to throw the mattress down to him.
    Now, here is where it gets a little murky for me. Baird said in earlier statements to the Uticah Observer Dispatch that they went over the training to be conducted detail by detail. Today's testimony would not bear that out.
    Adam Croman was second floor safety. If that is the case, then why didn't he pull everyone out if he knew Baird was trying to set a second fire downstairs?
    So, if I understand it; everyone familiar with the training for Sept. 25th understood that it was going to be RIT training and that a smoke barrel was going to be used. The person in charge of safety should not have been confused over details of the training. Next to the guy in charge of the training, the safety officer would need to know what training was to be conducted and plan the safety around it. Obviously, this wasn't done.
    So far, Mr. Moran has suggested that Adam Croman used gasoline to start the upstairs fire. He has suggested that Kimball was in charge of the training. Kimball, in statements made to the sheriff's department, implicated Lance Croman as the ranking officer.
    I suppose tomorrow, Moran will shift blame to Adam Croman for not getting Morris and Golden out of the house. If the smoke barrel was to be the sole source for the exercise, then I would have thought a serious red flag would have gone up as soon as everyone else saw Baird "flicking his BIC".
    Maybe we'll get the answer to that one soon.
    Stay tuned.

  6. #46
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    Default Lairdsville

    It saddens me to hear of a fire fighter death. The one thing that bothers me is the statement made by Baird when he stated he went around back with a hose line with another fire fighter and entered thru the kitchen and began an interior attack. Then he said he saw Croman fall from second story and he pulled him away from house. If he was inside fighting the fire how did he see Croman fall and did he leave the fire fighter in the house alone to pull Croman away from house.

    I also echo the statement of rescue 101 about the 19 yo safety officer. I am 27 have been a fire fighter for 8 years and have just become the safety Lt. for my department after several years of training and experience. I am not trying to blame anyone but having an inexperianced safety officer is the fault of the chief. Also I am unclear if their was a class A pumper on scene before they started the fire? If anyone can advise, please. That would be the number 1 rule to remember when live fire training.

  7. #47
    Forum Member Rescue101's Avatar
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    And what's with the Chief pleading ignorance?Whenever I do Live Fire Training,as I'm doing this weekend in a AQUIRED structure there is a floor plan,fire load calculations,sufficient staffing,WORKING Safety officers,And the Chiefs, ALL SIX OF THEM KNOW THE PLAN!Pumper and water in place and the BACKUP line in place,crewed and ready before the first fire is lit.All interior crews do a Walkthru prior to the excercise.There are more here that need to held accountable.T.C.

  8. #48
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    Angry Hmm

    It seems to me that no one person should be held responsible. It was a group activity, a team activity- finish it as one.
    Peter H. Davies

  9. #49
    Junior Member KVHCfirefighter's Avatar
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    Default

    I don't spend much time here on this board anymore, but I'll through my $.02 in anyway.

    I just recently went through the Incident Safety Officer course given at the NYS Academy of Fire Science on May 11 and 12 which was taught by Bill Wren. It was a real eye opener for me and made me debate wether or not I wanted to keep my ISO position within my department...that's how serious this stuff is. I would recommend it to anyone that can take it. You'll never look at a Safety Officer as a "tag shagger" again.

    Some have mentioned that NFPA guidelines are only that...guidelines. That's true. It has also been mentioned that NY is a home rule state. That's also true. Do we in the fire service have to adhere to NFPA guidelines? No. We do however have to abide by OSHA. And what has OSHA said??? That they will follow NFPA guidelines!!! So, there's no getting around it boys and girls. We had all better follow NFPA guidelines, or we'll end up like the idiot in Lairdsville.
    Glenn Ralston, FF/EMT-D
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    IACOJ Safety Officer

  10. #50
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    Thumbs down

    I have been following this case from day one and have found these differences in the statements of individuals. First in the fire investigators original statements was that there was a second fire lit upstairs in a bathtub. Last I new a fiberglass tub would burn hot and fast.hhhhmmmmm. Also it seams funny that everyone new right after it happend that there would be live fire and now they say they didnt. What about the story in the OD(Observer discrace as we call it), About the charged handline used to make the first attack on the fire. It has suddenly disappeared. Why are there so many peole changeing there story now?

    You find me one officer that would noat after losing a fellow firefighter go back and think that it may be there fault. I now that no matter what I would say to myself, " what if I did this or that" .
    I dont know but blaiming yourself is human not murder.
    Everything that I post is my opinion only, none of this should be taken as fact.

  11. #51
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Ladies and gentlemen:
    I think that we have found an Alan Baird supporter.
    sfdlt5: I am going to play "devil's advocate" here. First and foremost; were you there on Sept. 25th and if you were, what can you tell us? Will you be called to testify? Or are you in Baird's corner because you believe that he didn't set the fire that killed Brad Golden? If he didn't, who did? Who helped him position the couch at the base of the stairs, ignite the road flare, set the couch/mattress on fire, and then stand in amazement when the house lit up? Who helped him do that?
    You seem to believe that others knew his intentions and now they are no where to be found. I sense that you got your information from the same source as ours; Alan Baird III's interview with the Observer Dispatch. Are you saying that they distorted the statements of the interview or just plain left them out. I have read Lairdsville: What Went Wrong? several times and no one else has corroborated Baird's statements. Other than that he set the fire. I believe that others were "indirectly" culpable. They will pay a price as well. But apparently, there are some holes in Baird's account of the events of Sept.25th.
    I don't know but blaiming yourself is human not murder.
    Help me understand this statement. Alan Baird III admits to setting the fire in the couch. That is not blame; that is fact. The fire contributed to the death of one firefighter and the injuries of two others. He's lucky that he isn't being charged with murder. Because he should be. How a guy with 13 years in the service could be so reckless speaks to the depth of the problem. You seem to think that he shouldn't be charged with anything?
    Let me pose a hypothetical question to you. If you stuck a firecracker in my back pocket, lit it and blew part of my *** off, would you be responsible for my injuries? Come on; I want to hear your half-assed answer.
    My point is: through Baird's own statements, he admitted committing crimes. BLAME is what he is trying to put on everyone else. Like I said, I believe that others should be held accountable, but for the love of God, where is the honor? You should be supporting Adam Croman, Ben Morris and the family of Brad Golden. You should be in their support system. Alan Baird was not acting as a fire officer, firefighter or friend on Sept. 25th. He was acting as a common criminal-and there is a support system for that. It's called the prison system. Get use to the idea, sfdlt5. It's going to happen, unless Baird can prove that he wasn't there that day and that's not likely. His attorney has already put him at the scene of the crime.
    Baird strikes me as wanting to be the big guy on campus that day. He wanted to impress the new guys with big fire. They fed his ego when they went upstairs without so much as a question. They fed his ego by blindly trusting him with their lives. And when things turned to sh*t, HE THINKS THAT HE IS THE VICTIM? Don't make me puke.
    Get on the right side of this. The other side is just too ugly.
    You need to make sure that there aren't any more Alan Bairds in Oneida County.
    And for the record, I exercised considerable restraint in my reply. I factored in your short time in these forums. I realize that the emotional undercurrents are very high in this case. But this case is not about beliefs, but what is fact. Alan Baird has not been charged with anything that he hasn't already admitted to.
    Like yours, my opinions are mine and mine alone.

  12. #52
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    Angry

    First things first . I in no way support Mr. Baird. I am just trying to say that I eard from a few firefighters that were there that it was set to be a training "fire". Not a simulated fire. I was not there myself. After the hole thing happend I diont know if the original reports were posted on this board. The original reports stated that there were "3" fires started that night. One downstairs one in a barrell and one in a tub. You tell me does a fiberglass tub burn fast. I believe it does. I dont support either side in this case, Cause I live some what close to the area. I feal I should remain neutral. This county has had some very poor training practices in the past and maybe and just maybe this will help straighten things out. Didnt mean to **** you off just telling you what I know about the fire that night.
    Everything that I post is my opinion only, none of this should be taken as fact.

  13. #53
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Angry Baird revisited

    Originally posted by sfdlt5
    The original reports stated that there were "3" fires started that night. One downstairs one in a barrell and one in a tub. You tell me does a fiberglass tub burn fast. I believe it does.
    After sifting throught the numerous wire stories regarding testimony in this case, it became apparent to me that the ONLY means of egress from the second floor of this structure was the stairway...at the base of which Mr. Baird ignited the mattress. He admits that this fire quickly propagated throughout the room and , of course, UP THE STAIRWELL.

    By lighting that fire and that fire alone, Mr. Baird has cut off the only means of egress from the second floor. The victims, probationary firemen, had no SCBA training and no prior experience with intense heat and smoke conditions.

    Granted...the safety officer or any officer on that scene SHOULD have or could have put a stop to this evolution at any time...but I get the impression that they had no idea that Mr. Baird was going to ignite the mattress.

    Questions I have:
    Were hoselines in place and charged?
    Were back-up lines laid out?
    Were RIT or FAST teams standing by?
    Did each participant receive a familiarization with the building before the drill?
    Did all officers know the specifics of the plans?
    Was there an alteration of those plans by any individual?
    Were ladders positioned at any time, prior to the fire being set?

    Unfortunately, I do not know if these questions were asked or answered during the testimony.

    But the fact remains that Mr. Baird ignited the fire that blocked the only egress from that second floor. So what standard did he violate?
    NFPA? OSHA? Yes, but even more telling is the fact that he failed to use common sense about expected fire behavior at the base of a stairwell, or let's face it, a CHIMNEY providing an avenue for fire propagation to the second floor.

    There is no defense for that.
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
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  14. #54
    District Chief distchief60b's Avatar
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    Rescue 101....He is pleading ignorance because he is ignorant. Nothing wrong with good old country boys....I am one... But in this case he is a good old dumb country boy!

    Chief Reason... I am with you totally... Those are all facts...not blame.... Perhaps he can organize a fire brigade and train them at the state prison. If history repeats he would be saving taxpayers money and may get a meritorious service award.

    sfdlt5...
    I am just trying to say that I eard from a few firefighters that were there that it was set to be a training "fire". Not a simulated fire.
    ???What does that mean???? Are training fires not "simulated" fires? or...Do trainings fires just start automically as an act of god?

    I too have followed this from the beginning and have even seen some of the original testimony and there has never been any indication of "3" fires. Where did you get that information other that "hearsay"?? By saying you don't support either side are you saying that you condone the activities that day?? If so...I encourage others to steer clear of training you conduct. It appears from the form of your forum name that you may be an officer. If so...are you familiar with NFPA 1403? If you are an officer and had been there that day would you have had the "package" to say..."TIME OUT".....someone is going to get hurt here!!!!!!

    NFFFS_a16...The answer to most of your questions is no from what I have read. And there was no plan that had any organization as far as I can read so there would be nothing to alternate or change. The whole thing was a disaster waiting to happen. There was no common sense used, no planning, no tactical applications, no communication, and no breifing...just a match and some combustibles...that is it.
    09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
    ------------------------------
    IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
    "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
    BMI Investigator
    ------------------------------
    The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

  15. #55
    Sr. Information Officer NJFFSA16's Avatar
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    Unhappy The Bairdsville implications?

    Originally posted by captstanm1
    NFFFS_a16...The answer to most of your questions is no from what I have read. And there was no plan that had any organization as far as I can read so there would be nothing to alternate or change. The whole thing was a disaster waiting to happen. There was no common sense used, no planning, no tactical applications, no communication, and no breifing...just a match and some combustibles...that is it.
    Next question Stan; IF Baird is convicted for this tragedy, what are the future implications for officers, not only at training evolutions, but at actual alarms? The possibilities frighten me!

    The defense of Mr. Baird's actions will be interesting to follow, as the trial continues.
    Proudly serving as the IACOJ Minister of Information & Propoganda!
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  16. #56
    MembersZone Subscriber ChiefReason's Avatar
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    Well, let's see what happened in yesterday's court testimony.
    Ben Morris took the witness stand. He indicated that he was not briefed about the training exercise and was only told by Chief Croman that he would be acting as a live victim for a "routine interior fire attack" exercise. He also stated that he thought that it was suppose to be smoke from a smoke barrel fire. This contradicts Baird's statement that everyone knew about the training.
    Morris referred to a 5 minute timeline during which things turned to sh*t. He woke up in the front yard. This man was going to serve his country as a Marine, but can't because, as a result of that "training exercise", he had to have three fingertips amputated. Sad!
    Morris, when asked by Mr. Moran who was in charge, replied that it was Lairdsville's highest ranking officer, referring to Baird. Morris said that Adam Croman was in charge of safety; a fact that Adam Croman disputes.
    Hudson, a retired investigator stated that Baird voluntarily gave two statements; but there was some contradiction between the one taken on 9/26 and 10/7. In the first, Baird stated that he knew Golden was in the house and on 10/7, he stated that he didn't know that Golden was inside.
    According to Baird's statement, Spaven, Croman and Chief Kimball knew that a fire would be set on the first floor. Kimball and Croman said that a fire on the second floor in a barrel was to be used.
    Sounds like Baird had about 70 hours of state certified training. That figures out to what; less than 6 hours a year for 13 years of service. Yea, he earned his bugles(heavy, heavy sarcasm). Anyway, the big, big chief from Westmoreland (Holmes) stated that he oversees training for Lairdsville, but due to a personality conflict with Lairdsville, left training to Lance Croman. He said that they were to get together each month to discuss training, but it didn't work out that way. Sounds like too much discussion about training and not enough actual training. There's more. Holmes stated that he "hoped they were (OK) and getting back to me if they had serious problems". I smell Officer of the Year!!!!(heavy, heavy sarcasm)
    Walsh, the district safety officer stated that Lairdsville's air packs were not up to federal standards, so he knew it and failed to correct it. Great job, Walsh. Wouldn't have done any good for Golden, because according to Mr. Moran, Golden hadn't turned on his SCBA. Where did he get that information? First time I'm hearing that.
    Defense argues next week. Folks, I am telling you that you don't want to miss this. Mr. Robert Moran is going to put on a show; the likes of which we have not seen since OJ. I expect by the time he is done, everyone on the active roster for Westmoreland, Lowell and Lairdsville will be blamed for Golden's death; except for Baird, of course. Moran has intimated that Golden may have caused his own death by not turning on his SCBA. Why else would he say it? To prove that Golden lacked SCBA training? We'll see.
    NJFFS_A16: If you train as if your life depended on it, it will save your life at a structural fire. It is your training that will win the day when things go south. Getting answers to your questions before the fire is lit will certainly clear up any gaps.
    Future implications for officers? If you have conducted yourself in a competent manner, can demonstrate that you are qualified to be in charge, then you have nothing to worry about. I am not the least bit worried about the implications coming out of this trial. I am concerned about the changes that will or won't be made as its result. The way I see it; departments are going to take a better look at who is QUALIFIED to lead. The fire service will not lose one good officer as a result of this trial. Hopefully, those with marginal credentials will re-evaluate themselves and step down. If you don't have qualified people, then don't fill the position. If you can't meet the requirements, pick a different organization in which to volunteer. It's life or death here, folks. If you can't train to a competent level, then join the Lions Club, where the worst thing that could happen is that someone will wrestle you for some candy!
    Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time.
    The reason that IMACOJ and proud of it is that I have trained like my life has depended on it.
    Be safe, brothers and sisters.

  17. #57
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    Ok I do know all about NFPA 1403 I have read it and understand it. For the sake of saying I condone what was done that day that is your ignorance. Its called keeping my nose clean. I do not want to take sides. I do remember very well the day after this happend the local newspaper siad that according to investigators there were 3 fires started that day. That is what I am going by. Yes I would have stepped in and siad something is not right. If you dont believe that ask FunkyFire13 fe is a chief above me. I follaw the rules almost to a t. I just feel that if we all dont watch our backs next time a firefighter gets killed in a nontraining burn that the guy who went in with him and all the officers on the scene could be held responsible. That would be wrong in my book. If a tree falls and no ody is around does anyone hear it.
    Everything that I post is my opinion only, none of this should be taken as fact.

  18. #58
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    Default Huh?

    sfdlt5 you lost me on the tree thing and you're digging yourself a deeper hole with every post.

    If I'm negligent at my day job and cause death or serious injury to one of my employees I'm going to be held responsible. Why should I be immune as a line officer in a fire department?
    _________DILLIGAF

  19. #59
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    Default Here i am

    Ok, where should i begin here, first things first, sfdlt5 is one of our most dedicated firefighters that we have in our dept and, trust me he would never have put anyone in a situation, like the Westmoreland fire Dist did on sept. 25th. I use Westmoreland Fire dist, for the sole reason that While baird was the ranking officer on the scene from lairdsville, he was not the highest ranked officer for that district present, Kimball was, and he was given immunity, to testify in court. Convienent huh?? The whole situation in was and still is a cluster Fu*k, big time. Common sense should have stopped this, let alone and true firefighter on this scene, that had any balls should have stopped this, that is our responsibility not jsut as officers but as Brothers to watch out and protect each other. I notice in the OD from today that the Defense called the head of traingin for the district and he said that there were problems between the department and he had not been keeping up with what they were doing.....HELLO if u are in charge of training and there are Problems with the people u are training u are either, A not doing your job or B not caring.....this person too should be charged here, for being negligent.

    I think Sfdlt5 is more concerend about the shape of the volunteer fire service here in Oneida county and NYS as well, i have posted here previously that there are problems, one of the biggest is fire commisioners that govern depts...look at all the fines that were handed out to the westmoreland commies....Maybe these guys should be charged as well for being ignorant to standard and negligent in how their depts are run.

    Is Al baird guilty, in one word YES, he lit the couch which trapped those individuals on the second floor, is this the fire that killed them hard to say, If it is true that Brads air pak was not even turned on, then i would like to know how he was able to even breath with the mask on and no air. Baird should be held accoutable, otheres should be held accoutable, should he do time....can't really say, we had a case last year were a person hit a women, left her for dead on the side of the road, ran to georgia, was caught and only had to searve 6 weekends in jail.....6 weeks for killing someone, i think that is just as reckless, but im not the jury, or the DA, im just a concerned member of the fire communitee here in onieda county who will be happy when this is over and our depts are not looked as imcompetent and ignorant, the majority of us do know what we are doing and try our best to be as safe as we can, this unfortunate incident has put a horrible blemish on all the volunteers here and nationwide, and drastically affected recruitments efforts, lets all hope that brads death will not be in vain and change will come of this, change for the better.

  20. #60
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    Chief Reason,

    As to your last post, The information is not all correct.
    I have followed this incident right along. I personally have had
    the opportunity to meet Assistant Chief Walsh. Asst. Chief Walsh
    has held that position for the last three, maybe four years.
    During this time has spent countless hours educating himself and
    learning to be a successful chief officer. About a year ago the fire district of Westmoreland approached him and asked him to become
    a safety officer. This position is somewhat different than what you and I would know it as. The Westmoreland Fire Dist. Safety Officer
    was made to keep up on OSHA,PESH,NFPA and local regulations.
    (I know what your thinking. they didn't know what NFPA was!!) Mr.
    Walsh is a very knowledgeable man, who without a dought put in his time. Chief Walsh spent many hours writing the dist. respiratory protection program, the hazardous communication program, bloodbourn
    pathogens program, He strived to coordinated all physicals and mask fit tests. Chief Walsh has made great accomplishments in a short time. There are several department surrounding Westmoreland that will
    testify to that because they have adopted his work.

    As for Mr. Moran. The statement he made stating Bradley Golden didn't
    have his air pack on is a tactic in my opinion. This statement to the media is a last ditch effort in hopes someone on the jury would read it and form an opinion. It was certainly not perceived that way in court. Anybody who ever used an MSA low pressure SCBA belt mounted
    regulator will know that if your mask is on your face and the low-pressure hose is connected to the regulator it has to be on or you can't breath.

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